Log content 18august

From Apache OpenOffice Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Return to main page : MacOSXPortMeetings

Return to Previous meetings page : Previous_Mac_Meeting_logs

Return to August 2006: August 2006

[20:44] cbrunet joined the chat room.

[21:05] ChristianL:the meeting is in 2 hours, correct?

[21:05] ChristianL:oh 1 ok

[21:05] paveljanik: what have you expected? ;-)

[21:05] shaunmcdonald:ChristianL: 1 hour I thought

[21:06] ChristianL:a creative bunch of nice teamwork oriented people with ambigion :)

[21:06] ChristianL:I was right with ambigion

[21:06] paveljanik:ambigion?

[21:07] ChristianL:ambition

[21:07] paveljanik:and the status as you see it now?

[21:08] paveljanik:what do you think?

[21:10] paveljanik:I think the main problem is missing technical leadership, vision...

[21:10] paveljanik:I thought that ssa will be the leader, but he does not have time to do so.

[21:12] ChristianL:as I wrote in my mail, I think going further with the current mac port is good to gain a bigger mac userbase and also to gain expirience

[21:12] paveljanik:it is hard to create team when there is no clear goal, common vision...

[21:12] ChristianL:finding a solution for the missing toolkit vision is also a known problem inside sun, and beleave me I'm not the only one that try to drive it. but it takes time

[21:13] paveljanik:yes, but this is like finding solution for world peace...

[21:13] ChristianL:but we already move int that direction. Canvas is one thing, supporting cairo another. Currently we also invest some development to improve the awt api implementation (no jave, just awt api with vcl)

[21:14] paveljanik:we should first finish our goal and then we can speculate about future work...

[21:14] ChristianL:so we need someone that says "enough discussion, its vcl mac port first!" ? :)

[21:14] paveljanik:just do not take opinions from peope lwithout single line of code behind them too seriously...[

[21:15] paveljanik:yes...

[21:15] paveljanik:I'll do so immediatelly I'm at home...

[21:16] paveljanik:off topic should go to social@ ;-)

[21:16]ChristianL:ok I will hunt that transparency problem now, will be back for meeting :)

[21:16] paveljanik:I'll take shower ;-)

[21:16] ChristianL:we could add a visionary_mac@ooo for non developers :)

[21:20] paveljanik:it is interesting to talk about the future, ... when you also work on the present todo items ... yes

[21:23] ChristianL:I don't think that we are that far from having ooo on mac without x11, so I agree current mac port is present. having some additional items as native filepicker is near future, rest is vision

[21:25] paveljanik:yes, and we have to made it into stone and use that stone to learn other people, to share this goal and to finish it.

[21:26] ChristianL:what me worries about james is that even it is clear he did not understand what he just read, he comments on it. weird. also it worries me how much energie some peoplse spend to just debate things when in general they share the same goal

[21:35] ericb2 joined the chat room.

[21:35] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: hi eric

[21:36] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: hi Shaun

[21:36] ericb2:hello all :-)

[21:36] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: enjoy your holiday?

[21:36] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: too short :-)

[21:37] ericb2:aliscafo: is your build issue solved ?

[21:38] aliscafo:ericb2: nope

[21:38] ericb2:aliscafo: I don't understand

[21:38] aliscafo:sending you the log

[21:39] ericb2:aliscafo: yes

[21:39] ericb2:aliscafo: please

[21:39] paveljanik:christianL: I already wrote to James several times that he could save his and also my time if he stops replying to all mails...

[21:40] ChristianL:ericb2: tried my updates yet?

[21:42] aliscafo:ericb2: sent

[21:43] ericb2:ChristianL: I'll do soon :-)

[21:43] ericb2:ChristianL: just back from Restaurant ;-)

[21:44] paveljanik:ericb2: any blog about WWDC?

[21:44] ericb2:paveljanik: no

[21:45] ericb2:paveljanik: just a lot of photos

[21:45] ericb2:paveljanik: outside

[21:45] paveljanik:no blog, no info. no pics, nothing? ;-)

[21:47] ericb2:paveljanik: all public infos have been published. Just OpenOffice.org 2.0.' runs fine on Loepard

[21:47] ericb2:paveljanik: leopard

[21:47] ericb2:paveljanik: built with Panther

[21:48] paveljanik:everything on WWDC is public, no secret info there...

[21:48] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: good to hear that

[21:48] ericb2:paveljanik: not true. Just the keynote is public

[21:48] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: re ooo on leapard

[21:48] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: the preview

[21:48] ChristianL:my code crashes while loading a pengiun.png, could be a feature ...

[21:49] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: yes I know, can't wait to get my hands on the final, some neat features

[21:49] ericb2:ChristianL: I can test with the old one, just for see. Got a lot of .png ;-)

[21:50] ericb2:ChristianL: http://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/screenshots/ericb_18august/

[21:52] ericb2:ChristianL: previous version opens .png in draw

[21:53] ChristianL:thats old code from yesterday, I don't support that anymore :)

[21:54] ericb2:ChristianL:  :-)

[21:56] paveljanik:ericb2: I do not understand you. I do not care about presentations contents. What about meetings, ...

[21:56] paveljanik:anything interesting for our project?

[21:57] ericb2:paveljanik: the meeting will start is 4 or 5 minutes

[21:57] paveljanik:so you'll inform us about your WWDC meetings there¨ Good. incompatible encoding

[21:59] ericb2:well we can start ?

[22:00] ChristianL:• ChristianL is waiting patiently

[22:01] paveljanik:• paveljanik too

[22:01] shaunmcdonald:• shaunmcdonald too

[22:01] obr:• obr too

[22:02] ericb2:the agenda was prepared some times ago, and maybe the content is not completely exact

[22:02] ericb2:ok, let's go : welcome to the new people

[22:02] maho joined the chat room.

[22:02] ericb2:I see Christian is present and very active

[22:02] shaunmcdonald:maho: your just in time

[22:02] ericb2:ChristianL: may you please present you quickly ?

[22:03] maho:hello, shaunmcdonald and hello all!

[22:03] fheckl joined the chat room.

[22:03] ericb2:maho: hello

[22:03] ericb2:fheckl: hi Florian

[22:03] ChristianL : sure, for those that don't know yet, I'm working at sun for nearly 7 years now. I'm the technical lead of the impress team and the co lead of the ooo graphics project.

[22:03] maho: hello ericb2

[22:03] fheckl: ericb: hi eric and dall

[22:04] fheckl: s/d//

[22:04] ericb2: ChristianL: that's great to see people like you come and help us !

[22:04] ChristianL: but I must add that i'm currently very active because i'm on vacation

[22:04] maho: ChristianL : great to hear that!

[22:05] ericb2: ChristianL: and you bought a Mac if I'm not wrong

[22:05] ericb2: may help ;-)

[22:05] ChristianL: yes, pavel talked me into a mac mini

[22:05] paveljanik: • paveljanik is ready to nack everything...

[22:06] ericb2: • ericb2 googling "nack" ...

[22:06] paveljanik: !ack

[22:08] ericb2: maybe shaun can tell us about last website changes now ?

[22:08] shaunmcdonald: hi

[22:08] shaunmcdonald: there's not been much that I've done

[22:09] shaunmcdonald: there has been an e-mail out recently about some changes that were done, not by me

[22:09] shaunmcdonald: re the left column and links in there

[22:09] shaunmcdonald: this affects the whole porting project

[22:09] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: I ask because you have not enough rights to make changes, right ?

[22:09] shaunmcdonald : ericb2: correct

[22:10] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: if I'm not wrong, you need developer rights

[22:10] shaunmcdonald: there is also a new style sheet being proposed for just the porting site

[22:10] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: just web developer/conent developer is enough

[22:10] ericb2: can anyone confirm : an ssh2 key is needed to commit for the website, right ?

[22:11] maho: right

[22:11] maho: we need ssh tunnel as well

[22:11] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: so you'll have to ask for a key

[22:11] maho: please file as an issue

[22:11] shaunmcdonald: I have used ssh tunnel for sourceforge before

[22:11] maho: then no problem.

[22:12] shaunmcdonald: which area do I file issue?

[22:12] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: let me search the page ...

[22:13] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: http://qa.openoffice.org/issue_handling/submission_gateway.html ?

[22:14] maho: shaunmacdonald : I'll tell you later.

[22:14] maho: please e-mail me. or write an issue. I'll re-assign to you.

[22:14] shaunmcdonald: maho: ok

[22:15] maho: ericb2 : we can proceed to next aganda or topic, right?

[22:15] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: be patient, this can take some times

[22:15] maho: right. it takes time!

[22:15] shaunmcdonald: anything else on web site?

[22:15] ericb2: maho: before, does anyone have comment(s) about the page under test ?

[22:16] shaunmcdonald: other thing that I have been doing is translation of QA howto

[22:16] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: ah, we still need a high level map of content on the site

[22:16] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: that doesn't need web developer priv or ssh key

[22:17] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: just draw, though bit annoying with default large font

[22:17] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: ok

[22:18] ericb2: native port news now ?

[22:18] shaunmcdonald : on the QA howto see http://smsm1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ooo/qa/index.html#howto

[22:18] shaunmcdonald: next item

[22:18] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: thank's for your work

[22:18] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: :-) it is tough

[22:19] ericb2: none has something to say about last native port news :-))

[22:19] ericb2: ?

[22:19] fheckl: christian should have...

[22:20] ericb2: fheckl: yes ;-)

[22:20] ChristianL: well what can I see, you have seen the screen shots and maybe read my wiki :)

[22:20] ChristianL: so for those who don't know, I'm currently focus on the bitmap and drawing part of the port

[22:21] ChristianL: for bitmap support, that is 99% done, but not yet working without errors

[22:21] ChristianL: for drawing support, currently mainly the raster operations are missing

[22:21] maho: really great

[22:21] ChristianL: I will write an entire section about that soon, but basicaly it is the stuff that

[22:22] ChristianL: is used to draw cursors, selection frames and also some transparency. And it is also used for bitmap fillings in non rectangular areas

[22:22] ChristianL: and it is a bit picky because mac does not support it, as far as I can see it now

[22:22] ChristianL: so, another thing I tried is the appearance manager

[22:22] ChristianL: that is the code from apple that is also used by mozilla to draw its native widgets

[22:22] ChristianL: thats very easy to use, implementing all of it is just a bit of

[22:23] ChristianL: missing a verb here, it is just a bunch of stupid work :)

[22:23] ChristianL: That would cause the basic native widgets to look like aqua widgets, kind of like the luna theme on windows

[22:23] • ChristianL is done, any questions?

[22:24] paveljanik: christianl: I think the best solution for it is implementing one widget perfectly as a template...

[22:24] maho: Really great works ChristianL!

[22:24] fheckl : good work so far

[22:24] paveljanik:and other people can stand and continue with other widgets...

[22:25] maho:ChristianL : Please tell us your RSS feed and your blog is listed on http://planet.go-oo.org/ ...

[22:25] ChristianL:I think maybe thats a good area for aliscafo

[22:25] ericb2:ChristianL:† yes, very good work, and in some days only[22:25]ChristianL:maho, I don't blog, nor do I RSS ;-)

[22:25] aliscafo:ChristianL: sure if it's stupid work ;)[22:25]maho:okay[22:25]ChristianL:aliscafo, but not for one that is stupid ,-)

[22:25] paveljanik:christianl: I'd also prefer blog instead of wiki... ;-)[22:26]ChristianL:maybe later[22:26]maho:me too, I prefer blog ;)

[22:27] ChristianL:what I mean with the work for the native widgets is that you can do it without much prior knowledge to OOo

[22:27] maho:aha

[22:27] paveljanik:I can confirm this...

[22:28] ericb2:As summary :† eventloop is not solved, graphical points are work in progress and I identified some bugs with fonts testing my own build

[22:28] ChristianL:I will add a little info on that on my wiki-blog tomorrow

[22:28] ericb2:ChristianL:† yes, please ![22:28]maho:Sounds very nice!

[22:28] ChristianL:Suggestion: What about making entires in wiki for event loop, graphics, font and native widgets?

[22:29] ericb2:ChristianL : yes ,† very good idea !

[22:29] paveljanik:... instead of generics like printing, ...? ;-)

[22:29] ChristianL:ericb2: Your wiki user page is ok, but a little to much for one page, so I did not add my bitmap findings there

[22:30] aliscafo:ChristianL: I am relieved I thought you were saying I am stupid ;)

[22:30] ericb2:ChristianL: in fact, I'm waiting for someone using what we can find in my page, to build other ;-)

[22:30] aliscafo:ericb2: do we have anybody working on the event loop?

[22:30] ericb2:aliscafo: I have some infos ...

[22:31] ericb2:about event loop, I met an Apple engineer (I have his mail), and† he proposed me to use something similar, but I have to discuss with Tino before

[22:31] fheckl: fheckl will be away now but I will read up later on

[22:31] maho:bye fheckl

[22:31] ericb2:bye fheckl

[22:33] ericb2:He proposed me to use InstallEventLoopTimer with GetCurrentEventLoop and NewEventLoopTimerUPP as parameter

[22:33] ericb2:parameters

[22:33] ericb2:replacing RunApplicationEventLoop()

[22:35] paveljanik:but we do not use RAEL...

[22:35] ericb2:paveljanik:† we should

[22:36] paveljanik:but we can't because VCL is using Yield and co...

[22:36] paveljanik:this is the reason why we have to process events manually...

[22:36] ericb2:paveljanik: yes, but what he proposed me is very similar, and should help to install event handlers

[22:37] ericb2:and this is even very close to Tino's implementation.

[22:37] ericb2:that's the reason why I wanted to discuss with him

[22:37] paveljanik:what could help is when Apple publihes what RAEL does in the form of source code....

[22:38] ericb2:paveljanik: I can ask

[22:40] aliscafo:ericb2: do you have contacts at apple?

[22:40] ericb2:aliscafo: yes

[22:40] paveljanik:ok, what next?

[22:40] schmidtm joined the chat room.

[22:41] schmidtm:hi *, sorry for beeing late ...

[22:41] ericb2:again on WWDC, I discussed with design engineers, and we have a lot to do. Most important is our menus

[22:41] ericb2:completely windows like

[22:42] paveljanik:native/vcl or contents of menus in general?

[22:42] ericb2:I think we can expect Apple help as soon we have correct menus

[22:42] ericb2:paveljanik: content of menus

[22:43] paveljanik:so the VCL menu in every window is not a big problem?

[22:43] ericb2:paveljanik: not discussed about that

[22:43] You have set yourself away with "be back soon".

[22:44] aliscafo:paveljanik: what's left to do with menus?

[22:44] paveljanik:so I think we can't change it soon :-(

[22:45] ericb2:paveljanik: wich modules are concerned† ? Only vcl ?

[22:45] ChristianL:the contents of the menus is xml only, so that could be changed very easy, maybe with xslt

[22:46] paveljanik:aliscafo: looks like there is some problem in the real app - empty strings instead of texts. it works in svdem though... I have to debug it. But this is native/vcl menus issue, not the menu contents issue...

[22:46] paveljanik:ericb2: for menu contents?

[22:47] aliscafo:paveljanik: ok

[22:47] ericb2:paveljanik: for menu contents first. User point of view

[22:47] ericb2:@all:† http://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/patches/events/InstallEventLooptimer.cxx

[22:48] paveljanik:users see native menus as a bigger problem. at least this is what you have† been saying in the past...

[22:49] ericb2:this is still the case

[22:49] paveljanik:because you do not care about menu content when the complete menu is not there, where you expect it to be :-)

[22:51] ericb2:as reminder, what Mac users expect:† no X11, same behaviour than other real Mac applications (keyboard), native filepicker, all the usual fonts available, native printing, and aqua look.

[22:52] ericb2:(in chaotic order)

[22:52] maho:† † † † † † † :) † † † † †

[22:52] ericb2:Other native port news ?

[22:52] ericb2:maho: ;-)

[22:53] maho:no ... I'm interested in QA now..

[22:53] paveljanik:ericb2: so Apple will help us when we have simple, more Mac like menus, despite the fact that menus are on the top of every window? Do I understood it right?

[22:54] ericb2:paveljanik: hmm ... only one menu, and on the menubar, but maybe we ould try with lighter menus on every windows. No guarantees

[22:54] paveljanik: paveljanik is a bit slower, typing on small Nokia keyboard :-(

[22:54] ericb2:s/ould/could/

[22:55] ericb2:next point : X11 news

[22:55] paveljanik:so what is more important for them?

[22:56] ericb2:paveljanik: have menus with inside, what needs the user *now* , not zillions of secondary possibilities the user don't need.† 20% visible, 80% hidden

[22:57] ericb2:paveljanik: e.g. : when you start the application: something proposing which sort of document you want to create

[22:57] ericb2:nothing else

[22:57] paveljanik:good, so menu contents...

[22:58] ericb2:yes

[22:58] ericb2:I'm only about menus contents

[22:58] ericb2:in some words, OpenOffice.org is too complicated to use

[22:59] paveljanik:hmm, this is currently out of our scope.

[23:00] ericb2:paveljanik: we could start to describe the job, and ask† (where ?). Maybe Christian Jansen ?

[23:01] ericb2:next point ?† (important)

[23:01] ericb2:aquavcl01 integration

[23:01] ChristianL:Mathias M¸ller Prowe replaced Christian Jansen for such issues incompatible encoding

[23:01] ericb2:I first proposed :

[23:01] ericb2:decide what can be integrated

[23:01] ericb2:decide a plan to write documentation about the changes

[23:01] ericb2:decide to write a todo list

[23:02] ericb2:in Action items

[23:02] ChristianL:(M¸ller-Prowe is also a Mac User) incompatible encoding

[23:02] ericb2:ChristianL: thank you for the information

[23:02] ericb2:ChristianL: so better catch ;-)

[23:03] paveljanik:I do not have anything to say now about aquavcl01 integration...

[23:03] ericb2:paveljanik: now, a lot of code is concerned, and a good part could be integrated without problem

[23:03] ericb2:paveljanik: would simplify the builds

[23:04] ericb2:paveljanik: wrong code can always be modified

[23:04] paveljanik:I personally do not care from where the code comes from...

[23:04] ericb2:BTW, canvas and extensions need some fixes

[23:04] paveljanik:cws, milestone, I do not care...

[23:05] ericb2:paveljanik: we need people bulding and simply testing

[23:05] ericb2:building

[23:05] maho:really?

[23:05] paveljanik:when we have working OOo, I'll be the first one to clean it and prepare it for QA.

[23:05] schmidtm:maho: yes i think so

[23:06] maho:paveljanik : I think you will do ;)

[23:06] ericb2:maho: yes : a lot of bugs can be detectd. e.g. font are "flipped" , symbols are not centered ..etc

[23:06] paveljanik:in the meantime, this is a lot of lost work that could be spent on the *actual* work.

[23:06] maho:I think so too.

[23:07] schmidtm:paveljanik: exactly, right.

[23:07] ericb2:paveljanik: what do you propose

[23:07] ericb2:?

[23:07] ChristianL:since we have no much work resyncing aquavcl01 to any current milestone, I would not consider integrating it an option before we have something that *works*

[23:07] paveljanik:spend the time of people wanting to make it ready for QA tomorrow on making the bitmap transparency work?

[23:08] paveljanik:or native menus...

[23:08] ChristianL:As soon as the office is nearly usable, we can provide test builds from the cws, no need for integration

[23:08] ericb2:paveljanik: to avoid confusion, may you please explain us what native menus means. Sometimes, I doubt ...

[23:08] paveljanik:now that freetypy changes are deleted from aquavcl01, resyncing is easy...

[23:09] ChristianL:btw: Matthias.Mueller-Prove@Sun.COM

[23:09] ericb2:ChristianL: thank you !

[23:09] ChristianL:ericb2, paveljanik: I would love to see both the event loop and the native menu aproach described in short sentences on a wiki entry :)

[23:10] ericb2:ChristianL: I'll do. separated pages

[23:10] paveljanik:common changes for generic code should be fixed in regular dev. process, of course, so the amount of fixes in aquavcl01 is connected only with the real port.

[23:11] paveljanik:ericb2: have you actually read the screenshots page at all?

[23:11] ericb2:paveljanik: BTW, just wondering: the licence is not shown on second screen. Could it be because the font is default font, and we don't use X11 stuff ?

[23:11] You have returned from away.

[23:11] ericb2:paveljanik: wich one ? your page ?

[23:11] ChristianL:ericb2: No thats a problem with text layouting

[23:11] maho:we should replace VCL.xcu

[23:12] ericb2:maho: exactly the file I had in mind ;-)

[23:12] paveljanik:maybe. but the UI text is shown...

[23:12]maho:paveljanik : ?

[23:13] paveljanik:native menu means Mac OS X menus, not VCL menus on top of every window...

[23:13] ericb2:paveljanik: so this is probably a text layouting issue

[23:13] maho:aha

[23:14] paveljanik:there is always one native menu for all windows, but every window has its own VCL menu (not completely true, but descriptive)

[23:14] ChristianL:TextEngine, EditEngine, Outliner, Writer, MultiLineEditControl. Everything with a line break does not work.

[23:15] ericb2:ChristianL: yes

[23:15] paveljanik:christianL: worth mentioning somewhere :-)

[23:15] ChristianL:paveljanik: What about making writer, calc, impress different applications so each has its unique native menu?

[23:16] paveljanik:this is also my About window endless loop issue, right?

[23:16] ChristianL:paveljanik, most likely

[23:16] ChristianL:as this seems to be a simple issue, I will look at it as soon as I fixed my personal nemesis, the transparency of toolbar images

[23:16] paveljanik:christianL: this does not make sense. We *can* switch different menus in that one native menubar...

[23:17] ChristianL:paveljanik, sorry, I thougt there can be only one. Than we can always use the menu of the active window, so where is the problem?

[23:18] ericb2:paveljanik: it it possible to hide the window menubar, and display it as "native " ?

[23:18] paveljanik:christianl: no problem so far ;-) I was just describing native vs vcl menus ;-)

[23:18] ChristianL:(But having all application seperate would be mor iWork like ... )

[23:18] ericb2:paveljanik: I remember a variable to set as TRUE

[23:18] ericb2:..[23:18]paveljanik:ericb2: do you read my mails at all? ;-)

[23:19] ericb2:paveljanik: it depends / I received ~2000 mails since the last two weeks

[23:19] aliscafo:ericb2: if I understand pavel correctly native menus work in svdem but there are some bugs with the real applications

[23:20] paveljanik:which reminds me I'll rewrite it in the similar way like christianl's makefil.mk define...

[23:21] ericb2:paveljanik I meant to† BOOL AquaSalMenu::VisibleMenuBar()

[23:21] ChristianL:I may be a humble mac beginner, but I suspect the problems with native menus are connected to the event loop not yet working..

[23:21] paveljanik:yes

[23:21] ericb2:ChristianL: it is

[23:22] paveljanik:christianl: it works now, but with a hack.

[23:22] paveljanik:ok, looks like I have to commit my code and make it default instead of the need to enable it :-))))

[23:23] ericb2:paveljanik: you don't think the code I received will help ?

[23:24] paveljanik:ericb2: maybe. I haven't yet investigated. cut&paste does not work here...

[23:25] ChristianL:paveljanik: Great idea

[23:25] ericb2:Next point ?

[23:26] ericb2:a FAQ :† create a dedicated list, to separate devel from users informations

[23:27] ericb2:none interested ?

[23:27] shaunmcdonald:I had hand written some notes on a ooo mac troubleshooter that could be done

[23:27] schmidtm:why don't we just create a new one?

[23:28] shaunmcdonald:it would contain all the main problems that are reported

[23:28] shaunmcdonald:and have them categoried

[23:28] shaunmcdonald:it would be all HTML

[23:28] ericb2:schmidtm: I can. This is a 5 minutes job only. But I need Martin agreement, at least.

[23:29] schmidtm:ericb2: Martin who?

[23:29] shaunmcdonald:I think the first page with the categories should have some images

[23:29] shaunmcdonald:one for each category

[23:29] ericb2:schmidtm: Martin Hollmichel

[23:29] shaunmcdonald:good or bad idea?

[23:29] schmidtm:ericb2: and he's from Sun?

[23:29] ericb2:schmidtm: yes :-)

[23:30] paveljanik:I have to go to bed now,see you tomorrow.

[23:30] ericb2:paveljanik: good night

[23:30] schmidtm:ericb2: and you have tried this before and failed?

[23:30] ericb2:schmidtm: to be precise, we asked Louis Suarez Potts, and .. don't remember. It was refused.

[23:31] ericb2:schmidtm: I'm co lead of Porting with Martin, and I cant decide alone

[23:31] schmidtm:ericb2: although I'm on vacation I'll call Michael on Monday and convince him that we have to have a separate list.

[23:31] ericb2:schmidtm: I can ask him, but it could be more efficient one discuss with him directly

[23:31] ericb2:schmidtm: please do :-)

[23:32] shaunmcdonald:lately there has been a move to push all the mac user questions to users@openoffice.org

[23:32] ChristianL:I don't think Martin has a problem with that

[23:32] ericb2:ChristianL:† me neither

[23:32] shaunmcdonald:and keep mac@porting.openoffice.org just for development

[23:33] ChristianL:but question is, do we really need a mac users list? all other plattforms also use users@ooo ?

[23:33] schmidtm:ChristianL: you're in HH, are you?

[23:33] ChristianL:schmidtm: Yes

[23:33] maho:i think users@ooo is enough.

[23:33] shaunmcdonald:I'm scared to subscribe to users@ooo, due to the very high level of messages

[23:34] maho:LOL

[23:34] schmidtm:we all agree that the current mixture on the mac list is a bad thing.

[23:34] shaunmcdonald:otherwise I would join

[23:34] ChristianL:schmidtm: yes

[23:34] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: yes

[23:34] maho:then navigate to users@oo.o

[23:34] schmidtm:Since we can not stop people to post on the existing list, i fear we have to create a new one, OK?

[23:34] ericb2:to vomplete, when I rad other projects, they are zillions of useless lists ...

[23:34] ericb2:complete

[23:34] ericb2:s/rad/read/

[23:35] schmidtm:ericb2: you want to limit the *existing* list to development questions?

[23:35] ericb2:schmidtm: I myself am ok. I'll ask Martin (or someone else)

[23:35] shaunmcdonald:it can be a bad thing of having too many lists

[23:36] shaunmcdonald:over the past few weeks there has been a decrease in the number of user questions to the mac list

[23:36] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: currently, we have not too much lists

[23:36] schmidtm:I want to have as few lists as possible, but how can we stop people from posting?

[23:36] maho:just don't reply ;)

[23:37] ericb2:maho: he he

[23:37] shaunmcdonald:maho: and then get frustrated users

[23:37] maho:will go away[23:37]shaunmcdonald:better support pages?

[23:37] ChristianL:better faq?[23:37]ericb2:better application ?

[23:38] ericb2:† † † † † † † :-) † † † † †

[23:38] maho:right. better support page and faq will also reduce the number of frustrated persons

[23:38] shaunmcdonald:time to get my head into gear then

[23:38] maho:non transparency, no information, then people got frustrated

[23:38] schmidtm:so we have two options: a) get people off the existing list b) create a new developer list. Please vote now!

[23:38] ChristianL:my humble opinion is sending them to users@ooo is ok, but only if there are some people that answer mac questions

[23:39] shaunmcdonald:ChristianL: if those at users can't anwser they get sent to mac@porting at the moment

[23:39] maho:If good FAQ is available, then see FAQ will really help

[23:40] ericb2:maho: you don't think the HowTo is a good FAQ ?

[23:40] schmidtm:maho: you need to have a list to support users besides a FAQ.

[23:40] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: I think it is too difficult to access

[23:40] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: I think there should also be a HTML version

[23:40] ericb2:what if somebody write a web page with HowTo contents ?

[23:41] maho:ericb2 : very nice

[23:41] ericb2:this way, we could have one page per locale ? And create all locale s we need

[23:41] ericb2:the difficulty is to control the content

[23:41] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: easy where's original doc? Just save as HTML plus tidy up

[23:42] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: http://porting.openoffice.org/mac

[23:42] maho:ericb2 : right. we FreeBSD do so.

[23:42] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: currently french, german and english-US

[23:42] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: I know polish and maybe chinese is on the air

[23:42] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: I know, though they are PDFs

[23:42] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: I have the sources ;-)

[23:42] maho:Oh some chinese uses MacOSX version of OOo!

[23:43] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: At one point in time (when I wasn't online at home) I hated PDFs because they were so slow.

[23:43] schmidtm:guys, don't we loose the focus here. Yes we need to have a decent FAQ, but also dedicated lists.

[23:43] ericb2:maho: if remember correctly, one chinese people asked some times ago

[23:43] maho:hm.

[23:44] shaunmcdonald:can someone please change the typo on the above link 'Mai' -> 'May'?

[23:44] maho:you can, very soon.

[23:44] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: you ?

[23:44] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: soon

[23:44] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: Just looking up on how to create a ssh key

[23:45] shaunmcdonald:to upload to issue

[23:45] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: ask† louis on #openoffice.org

[23:45] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: a complete documentation is available. I myself understood ...so† ;-

[23:46] maho:† † † http://ja.openoffice.org/documents/develop/cvs_unix.html † †

[23:46] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: I think I have found something to help http://www.bombich.com/mactips/rsync.html

[23:46] maho:% ssh-keygen -d

[23:46] ericb2:what do we decide about lists ?

[23:46] maho:-1

[23:46] schmidtm:who is for a new list?

[23:47] ericb2:+1 for me

[23:47] shaunmcdonald:+1

[23:47] schmidtm:+1

[23:47] obr:-1

[23:48] maho:pjanik ...

[23:48] maho:paveljanik ...

[23:48] obr:already asleep ;-)

[23:49] schmidtm:he once mentioned that he's annoyed about the user questions ...

[23:49] schmidtm:mixed up with the development related stuff.

[23:50] ChristianL:+1 for a developer only list, undecided about what to do with the users

[23:50] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: http://website.openoffice.org/support/en/howtos/1.html

[23:51] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: generated key

[23:51] aliscafo:+1 if enough people are going to be subscribed to answer the questions

[23:51] schmidtm:ChristianL: send them to users for general questions and suport the mac stuff on the existing one.

[23:51] ericb2:FYI : a list can be created and removed

[23:51] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: that is my second choice

[23:52] ericb2:IMHO, I think we shouldn't decide today, and report to next meeting the decision.

[23:52] schmidtm:shaunmcdonald: sorry i didn't understand that.

[23:52] maho:ericb2: I agree

[23:53] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: if we don't have second list, then send to users@ooo

[23:53] ericb2:next point ?

[23:53] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: which is?

[23:53] schmidtm:ericb2: what is our decision now?

[23:54] ericb2:next points are :† decide next meeting date, and Maho's question about QA

[23:54] ericb2:schmidtm: I do not decide, I just propose to delay the decision

[23:54] maho:I'm okay for next week, same time.

[23:54] maho:Okay,

[23:54] shaunmcdonald:me too usually

[23:55] schmidtm:ericb2: OK, postpone.

[23:55] schmidtm:OK for me

[23:55] maho:Currently QA process of MacOSX is not very well established,

[23:55] shaunmcdonald:I now have TCM access

[23:55] maho:...

[23:56] maho:but James is not here...

[23:56] shaunmcdonald:not sure what to do in there though

[23:56] shaunmcdonald:maho: he recently replied to some email

[23:56] maho:I'd like to write a wiki to make things

[23:56] maho:about the QA process of MacOSX packages

[23:57] ericb2:maho: good idea. What I can tell you is :

[23:57] maho:well

[23:57] ericb2:french QA Team is important

[23:57] maho:† † † † † † † :) † † † † †

[23:57] ericb2:and growing

[23:57] maho:right, I know it.

[23:57] maho:oh that's very nice to hear

[23:58] ericb2:and Sophie told me Mac OS x is treated like other versions

[23:58] shaunmcdonald:what mime type do I use for my public key?

[23:58] ericb2:Sophie Gautier

[23:58] maho:Alexis Pigeon had conducted 2.0.3 QA of FR MacOSX ppc/intel

[23:58] maho:too

[23:58] maho:I think I learn a lot from fr community

[23:58] ericb2:maho: yes, and I invite you to discuss with them, including maybe James to decide what do

[23:59] maho:another point,

[23:59] maho:we don't have many developers, so if James finds a showstopper,

[23:59] maho:it can take a very long time to fix. for example, 2.0.2 en-US release

[00:00] maho:this is serious problem. as James is sincerely doing QA, he will find more showstoppers,

[00:00] maho:but no one can fix them in a short time frame.

[00:01] maho:This is also bad for marketing point of view.

[00:01] ericb2:maho: I understand. Was only Mac OS X version concerned or other were ?

[00:02] maho:Yes, MacOSX version only. No QA person in FreeBSD community ;)

[00:02] ericb2:maho: did you contact Joerg Sievers ?

[00:02] maho:No

[00:02] ericb2:maho: I'm sure he will help

[00:03] maho:Okay I'll ask him

[00:03] ericb2:maho: this is a very strict QA man

[00:03] maho:Hehe

[00:03] ericb2:maho: important, to progress ;-)

[00:03] maho:So I'd like to ask you ericb2,

[00:04] maho:which attitude is correct, if 2.0.4 is released we will immedately release MacOSX versions as well

[00:04] maho:with some messages like there are known problems here

[00:04] maho:or stop the release

[00:04] maho:until it will be fixed

[00:05]ericb2:other can answer too ;-)

[00:05] ericb2:maho: you mean m1 code is available

[00:05] ericb2:maho: and a stopper is knwon

[00:05] ericb2:known

[00:05] maho:okay

[00:05] shaunmcdonald:I know other project/commercial companies make a secondary release of a particular version

[00:05] shaunmcdonald: maybe we could too if there are bugs

[00:05] shaunmcdonald: they just have a new build number

[00:06] ericb2: maho: just my opinio. Wait RC3 cannot bebad ;-)

[00:06] ericb2: s/opinio/opinion/

[00:06] maho: ericb2 : mh will release only one RC

[00:07] ericb2: maho: Ah, ok. I was not aware.

[00:08] ericb2: maho: so previous versions are "developper snapshots" ?

[00:08] maho: ericb2 : sorry?

[00:08] maho: there are some released version as well

[00:08] maho : they are uploaded at the master site (stardiv.de)

[00:09] ericb2: maho: and QA starts with them ?

[00:09] maho: no, at Good-Day

[00:09] maho: process is following

[00:10] maho: 1) build 2) upload to Good-Day 3) QA 4) IssueTracker for upload request 5) release

[00:10] obr: ericb2: Having up to 7 "Release Candidates" is a marketing issue

[00:11] ericb2: obr: sure

[00:12] obr: maho: I think this has to be a one by one decision - in general we should release along with the other platforms.

[00:12] ChristianL: I'm sorry, but there can be more than one RC

[00:12] ericb2: maho: what about wait one or two days other archs are out before to start the build ?

[00:12] obr: Mac specific bugs may lead to a later release, but this should be the exception IMHO

[00:13] maho: No no, I'm talking about very slow QA of en-US version by James.

[00:13] shaunmcdonald: I think the mac port is getting good publicity by releasing build very close to the other platforms

[00:13] maho: It seems we lost the focus...

[00:13] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: one or two days are harmless

[00:13] maho: Okay I'll send an Agenda again...

[00:14] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: anything within a week is fine

[00:14] maho: ericb2 : is it fine for you?

[00:14] obr: maho: my hope would be that this was a one time issue

[00:14] ericb2: maho: James does a good work, and I'll ask him sooner if it takes too long time for the QA

[00:14] maho: ericb2: okay this is fine.

[00:15] ericb2: s/long/much/

[00:15] maho: ericb2: do not forget to ask him about his policy for P1 class issues.

[00:15] shaunmcdonald : I should be able to help James on en_US, though personally prefer en_GB

[00:15] ericb2: maho: clear rules on wiki page will solve this easely

[00:15] maho: Right, that's why I stated to write a wiki for QA purpose

[00:16] maho: in this IRC

[00:16] ericb2: maho: very good idea

[00:16] schmidtm : maho: great.

[00:16] maho: ericb2 : no new aganda to send again :) thanks.

[00:16] maho: no need to send.

[00:16] maho: i mean

[00:16] shaunmcdonald: Can we have a page on the wiki called 'MacOSXPorting' that links to all Mac OS X porting stuff?

[00:17] ericb2: shaunmcdonald: are you volunteer ?

[00:17] ericb2:  ;-)

[00:17] schmidtm: shaunmcdonald: I created this category.

[00:17] shaunmcdonald: ericb2: ok

[00:17] shaunmcdonald: schmidtm: what do you mean by the category?

[00:17] shaunmcdonald: schmidtm: i was a little confused by that

[00:17] schmidtm: shaunmcdonald: there you have all the pages.

[00:18] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: example please

[00:18] schmidtm:shaunmcdonald: give me a second ...

[00:19] schmidtm:shaunmcdonald: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Aqua

[00:19] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: that is aqua, not MAc OS X, which would contain X11 stuff too

[00:19] ericb2:other points ?

[00:20] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: aqua would be a subset of macosx

[00:20] schmidtm:shaunmcdonald: sorry, i mixed it up. But you can do the same.

[00:20] schmidtm:shaunmcdonald: just go over all pages from the index and tag the ones you want.

[00:20] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: ok, if I can't, I'll get back to you

[00:21] schmidtm:shaunmcdonald: you're welcome: schmidtm@sun.com

[00:21] ericb2:who will attend OOoCon2006 in Lyon ?

[00:21] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: :-)

[00:21] maho:unfortunately I won't be there...

[00:22] ericb2:maho:  :-/

[00:22] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: sorry no passport

[00:22] schmidtm:ericb2: I try, even if i have to sleep under the bridge. Is it warm in Lyon?

[00:22] ericb2:schmidtm: I'll search something for you :-) Stay tuned

[00:22] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: what is your login ?

[00:23] shaunmcdonald:schmidtm: If I can get get a passport I might join you

[00:23] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: smsm1

[00:23] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: thanks

[00:25] shaunmcdonald:I'm learning fast http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:MacOSX

[00:26] ericb2:other questions ?

[00:26] schmidtm:shaunmcdonald: ;-)

[00:26] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: create separate wiki page for port meetings, please

[00:26] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: I'll start it 'MacOSXPortMeetings'

[00:27] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: yes

[00:27] schmidtm:ericb2: beautify the logs with the script i sent to you

[00:27] ericb2:is content developer enough ?

[00:27] ericb2:oops

[00:27] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: is content developer rights enough ?

[00:27] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: for web page yes

[00:27] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: if this is not correct, let me know

[00:28] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: as far as I'm aware it is enough

[00:28] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: for editing the web pages

[00:28] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: thanks

[00:28] ericb2:shaunmcdonald: you should have received a mail ;-)

[00:28] ericb2:other questions ?

[00:28] shaunmcdonald:ericb2: I see it on http://porting.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectMembershipRequest

[00:29] ericb2:Next agenda ?

[00:29] maho:no

[00:30] ericb2:next meeting will be at same hour, next week 25th of august

[00:30] maho:thanks ericb2

[00:30] ericb2:maho: thank's to be present too :-)

[00:30] ericb2:at all : see you !

[00:30] obr:good night / nice day everyone

[00:30] obr left the chat room.

[00:30] schmidtm:thanks, CU guys

[00:31] maho:ericb2 : you are very kind person.

[00:31] ericb2:good night all

[00:31] maho:thanks again

[00:31] maho:good night :) good morning from Japan

[00:31] maho left the chat room. ("Ex-Chat")

[00:31] shaunmcdonald:night

[00:32] shaunmcdonald:http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacOSXPortMeetings started

[00:44] schmidtm left the chat room.

[00:54] ChristianL:toolbar bitmaps with transparency working! :)

[00:56] fheckl left the chat room.

[00:57] aliscafo left the chat room.

[01:00] ChristianL left the chat room. ("User disconnected")

Return to main page : MacOSXPortMeetings

Return to Previous meetings page : Previous_Mac_Meeting_logs

Return to August 2006: August 2006

Personal tools