Log Mac meeting 20th October 2006
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[Fri 21:20:23] --> You are now talking on #ooo_macport
[Fri 21:20:23] --- Topic for #ooo_macport is OpenOffice.org Mac porting team channel. Developers meetings every friday 20:00 UTC. All Mac port meetings logs are available at http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Previous_Mac_Meeting_logs
[Fri 21:20:23] --- Topic for #ooo_macport set by ericb2 at Tue Sep 26 21:39:15 2006
[Fri 21:20:41] <ybart> Hi
[Fri 21:20:59] <paveljanik> Hi
[Fri 21:40:32] <ybart> Seems I need to see the source for the filepicker :-)
[Fri 21:41:43] <paveljanik> ybart: there is a cws from Florian with it - aquafilepicker01 or something like that.
[Fri 21:42:10] <ybart> paveljanik: How can I check the CWS list ?
[Fri 21:43:55] <paveljanik> ybart: do you knwo EIS?
[Fri 21:44:10] <paveljanik> ybart: http://eis.services.openoffice.org/EIS2/servlet/Logon
[Fri 21:44:17] <ybart> paveljanik: I have see that somewhere...
[Fri 21:44:20] <paveljanik> there is search per module and search by name
[Fri 21:44:40] <ybart> paveljanik: ok, thanks
[Fri 21:49:36] --> shaunmcdonald (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ooo_macport
[Fri 21:49:57] <cloph> ybart: If you have a corresponding issue-number, you can as well use the issue-quicklinks of qa.openoffice.org
[Fri 21:50:24] <cloph> http://qa.openoffice.org/issuelinks.html
[Fri 21:50:27] <ybart> cloph: To find the cws name ?
[Fri 21:50:37] <cloph> Yes.
[Fri 21:51:02] <ybart> cloph: Interesting but I had no issue number :-)
[Fri 21:51:11] <ybart> However I fand it
[Fri 21:51:21] <ybart> It is aquafilepicker01
[Fri 21:51:33] <ybart> Exactly like paveljanik said
[Fri 21:58:31] --> ismael_ (email@example.com) has joined #ooo_macport
[Fri 22:05:07] <shaunmcdonald> for those that weren't around a wee while back, ericb2 said that he would be late, and we should just start the meeting without him
[Fri 22:06:22] <ybart> Before that, I have a problem with cws : performing checkout on cws dowload too much files...
[Fri 22:06:55] <cloph> ?
[Fri 22:07:25] <ybart> I have typed : cvs -z3 co -r SRC680_m187 OpenOffice2
[Fri 22:07:27] <ybart> no
[Fri 22:07:35] <ybart> cvs -z3 co -r cws_src680_aquavcl01 OpenOffice2
[Fri 22:07:51] <ybart> And I got accessibility, animations, autodoc, etc...
[Fri 22:07:58] <cloph> That's wrong. When updating the cws, only specify the modules that are included in the cws.
[Fri 22:08:32] <cloph> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Building_OpenOffice.org#Building_a_CWS
[Fri 22:09:47] <ybart> The command I typed worked a month ago...
[Fri 22:10:08] <cloph> I doubt that.
[Fri 22:10:34] <cloph> You checkout with a tag. But the other modules are not tagged with that module, basically resulting in these other files being removed.
[Fri 22:11:09] <ybart> I don't remember to have typed anything special to get it...
[Fri 22:11:26] <cloph> If you use the OpenOffice2 alias both times, then you need to do two seperate checkouts and then copy the modules from the cws-checkout over those from the regualr checkout.
[Fri 22:11:38] <cloph> But this will take much longer than updating the modules...
[Fri 22:12:03] <ybart> cloph: Of course...
[Fri 22:20:55] <shaunmcdonald> Will we start the meeting now?
[Fri 22:20:55] <shaunmcdonald> Point 1: Welcome new devs /Aqua News
[Fri 22:20:55] <shaunmcdonald> cloph: ismael_ mav_eric michael_ omega__ paveljanik sky ybart Would you like to start the meeting? ericb2 will join us later. There are only 2 points on the agenda http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacOSXPortMeetings
[Fri 22:21:05] <paveljanik> yes
[Fri 22:21:13] <ybart> ok
[Fri 22:21:18] * cloph doesn't mind starting - he's mainly lurking anyway...
[Fri 22:21:35] <ismael_> ok
[Fri 22:22:23] --> jamesmckenzie (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ooo_macport
[Fri 22:22:29] <shaunmcdonald> Are there any new devs that would like to introduce themselves?
[Fri 22:22:45] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: you haven't missed anything, ericb2 will join us later
[Fri 22:23:06] <ismael_> hello all
[Fri 22:23:19] <jamesmckenzie> shaun: You read my mind....Shame on youB-)
[Fri 22:23:34] <ismael_> i'm thinking about contributing to the ooo macport
[Fri 22:23:34] <ybart> :-)
[Fri 22:23:50] <ismael_> i've already talked with ericb2
[Fri 22:24:11] <ismael_> i know c++, but not yet carbon
[Fri 22:24:36] <ismael_> i have downloaded the sources and i'mabout to build them
[Fri 22:24:42] <jamesmckenzie> ismael_: You have any experience working with Graphical programming?
[Fri 22:25:12] <ismael_> yes, i know well QT (of trolltech not QuickTime)
[Fri 22:25:19] <ismael_> i ler
[Fri 22:25:22] <ismael_> sorry
[Fri 22:25:36] <ismael_> i learned also gtk, the win32 api
[Fri 22:26:30] <ismael_> but i forgot this 2 lasts because i didn't use them recently
[Fri 22:26:45] <jamesmckenzie> ismael_: Great. I had problems building on the Mac and recommend following the instructions TO THE LETTER. You must have Fink in order to build as well as a couple of other packages.
[Fri 22:26:50] <ismael_> i learned also SDL
[Fri 22:27:26] <jamesmckenzie> shaun and ismael_: I have to leave for about twenty minutes. I will be really mobile then.
[Fri 22:27:32] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: ismael_ the build instructions are a little bit out of date
[Fri 22:28:05] <shaunmcdonald> ismael_: but there is usually someone here to help you with the build
[Fri 22:28:07] <ybart> jamesmckenzie: You don't need to have Fink. Required tools can be built manually.
[Fri 22:28:18] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: Yes, but they still work (at the last time I did a build.) You will need at least the packages specified on the web page.
[Fri 22:28:38] <ismael_> i know, but ericb2 has updated some parts of the wiki
[Fri 22:29:03] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: It is easier, IMHO, for a beginner with the Mac to use Fink than to build the programs from scratch. Fink works through the dependencies.
[Fri 22:29:07] <ismael_> i built manually the required tools, like gnucp or package manager
[Fri 22:29:26] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: there are about 3 parts that I know of that are out of date
[Fri 22:29:41] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: did you build it since Intel came out?
[Fri 22:29:48] <jamesmckenzie> ismael_: Then you are set. I had to add gtk and several other packages to get a good build, but that was quite some time ago.
[Fri 22:30:10] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: No. I have not done an Intel build.
[Fri 22:30:33] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: Have you tried to do a build this year?
[Fri 22:30:43] <jamesmckenzie> ismael_: I'm glad eric has updated the Wiki.
[Fri 22:31:04] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: the build instruction are out of date from the first public build for Intel
[Fri 22:31:09] <paveljanik> good night
[Fri 22:31:15] <shaunmcdonald> paveljanik: night
[Fri 22:31:19] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: Yes, I have done several builds. My last one was 2.0.2 with a patch for IZ63030.
[Fri 22:31:32] <jamesmckenzie> paveljanik: Night.
[Fri 22:31:33] <ybart> paveljanik: good night
[Fri 22:31:44] <ismael_> yes, i tell him that i had encountered problems during configuring, and he corrected them
[Fri 22:32:01] <ismael_> paveljanik: good night
[Fri 22:32:17] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: Yes the instructions need to be updated for Intel builds, but I was using Pavel's build system, and I'd like to thank him for his work before he leaves this session.
[Fri 22:32:49] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: never mind, since January there has been a bit of a change in the builds even for PPC
[Fri 22:32:50] <jamesmckenzie> ismael_: Thank you. Your efforts as a beginner with this system will help us all.
[Fri 22:33:05] <jamesmckenzie> well got to go, can we pick this up later?
[Fri 22:33:26] <-- jamesmckenzie has quit ("Computer goes to sleep!")
[Fri 22:34:21] * shaunmcdonald is just updating the wiki page for the build instructions
[Fri 22:34:30] <shaunmcdonald> what is the latest milestone?
[Fri 22:34:40] <shaunmcdonald> m185?
[Fri 22:35:50] <ybart> m187
[Fri 22:35:59] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: thanks
[Fri 22:36:02] <ybart> The latest synced
[Fri 22:36:37] <ybart> There might be m188 or m189 but it is not in sync
[Fri 22:37:18] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: I was just looking for a milestone that was greater than 130 ;-)
[Fri 22:37:30] <shaunmcdonald> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacOSXBuildInstructions#Getting_OpenOffice.org_Source_from_CVS
[Fri 22:37:31] <ybart> :-)
[Fri 22:38:09] <ismael_> ericb2 corrected the aquabuild instruction, i think
[Fri 22:38:33] * shaunmcdonald is updating the X11 build instructions
[Fri 22:41:10] * shaunmcdonald thinks he has updated them
[Fri 22:41:26] <shaunmcdonald> Is there any Aqua port news?
[Fri 22:42:20] <shaunmcdonald> Or has anyone involved with the Aqua port gone?
[Fri 22:42:30] <ybart> I am working in Native Printing
[Fri 22:42:58] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: great, have you had any progress?
[Fri 22:43:01] <ybart> I have understood a lot of things, but I still need to read code before being able to write
[Fri 22:43:20] <ybart> I have written my progress on the wiki
[Fri 22:43:34] <ybart> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Native_Printing
[Fri 22:44:14] <ybart> The next step is to understand how I can make a native print dialog without breaking the other platforms
[Fri 22:45:37] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: that looks like some very comprehensive documentation :-)
[Fri 22:45:46] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: thanks :-)
[Fri 22:46:02] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: It is still very incomplete
[Fri 22:46:14] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: I need to document more about the classes
[Fri 22:46:42] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: It is a very good start
[Fri 22:46:50] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: thanks !
[Fri 22:47:04] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: Do you want to say some more about what you are doing?
[Fri 22:47:30] --> obr (email@example.com) has joined #ooo_macport
[Fri 22:47:47] <shaunmcdonald> hello obr
[Fri 22:47:59] <ybart> Now i am trying to watch how the display of the native filepicker is done
[Fri 22:48:12] <obr> Hi all ! Sorry for being late.
[Fri 22:48:14] <shaunmcdonald> obr: we are at point 1, ericb2 will join us later
[Fri 22:48:29] <ybart> I'd like to use a similar implementation for native printing dialog if possible
[Fri 22:48:51] <shaunmcdonald> obr: don't worry, we started quite late anyway, ybart was just saying about his stuff in Native Printing
[Fri 22:49:16] <obr> shaunmcdonald: good for me :)
[Fri 22:49:19] <ybart> However, according to what Jan Holesovsky said to me on gsl, it might not be possible
[Fri 22:49:26] <ybart> obr: Hi !
[Fri 22:49:59] <obr> ybart: Hi. Well, AFAIK no other implementation for a native print dialog exists (in OOo CVS)
[Fri 22:50:14] <ybart> Does somebody here have worked on native filepicker ?
[Fri 22:51:03] <obr> ybart: no. Tino did the Windows port, but here seems not be here tonight
[Fri 22:51:05] <ybart> However I have a technical problem with CVS CWS checkout
[Fri 22:51:14] --> jamesmckenzie (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #ooo_macport
[Fri 22:51:34] <ybart> Last time I checked out aqua vcl I used instructions on Wiki
[Fri 22:51:48] <ybart> which were cvs -z3 co -r cws_src680_aquavcl01 OpenOffice2
[Fri 22:51:49] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: I'm back....The drive was uneventful.
[Fri 22:52:18] <ybart> It downloaded only what was needed for aquavcl
[Fri 22:52:26] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: hello, that was quick
[Fri 22:52:40] <ybart> Now when I am doing the same, it downloads me the whole sources
[Fri 22:53:10] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: This is life in the 'big city' Sometimes it takes ten minutes, sometimes thirty.
[Fri 22:53:49] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: That should not happen. Which cvs client are you using?
[Fri 22:53:53] <ismael_> i firstly try this way for getting the aqua sources and it downloaded the whole source so i try the second possibility with a script
[Fri 22:54:01] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: the other option is to walk or cycle and the journey time become more consistent ;-)
[Fri 22:54:09] <ismael_> and it works
[Fri 22:54:10] <ybart> jamesmckenzie: The default cvs for Mac OS X
[Fri 22:54:26] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: which directory are you in when doing the checkout?
[Fri 22:54:35] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: commandline?
[Fri 22:54:42] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: A newly created directory
[Fri 22:54:50] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: yes, commandline
[Fri 22:54:53] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: I never had that problem. He should be in /cvs per the command he gave.
[Fri 22:55:06] <ybart> cvs 1.11.20
[Fri 22:55:08] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: for both checkouts?
[Fri 22:55:42] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: no, just for aquavcl
[Fri 22:55:46] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: you are logging in to email@example.com:/cvs right?
[Fri 22:56:18] * shaunmcdonald has never checked out a CWS before
[Fri 22:57:02] <mav_eric> ypart why should you get the whole sources when you only checkout a cws
[Fri 22:57:16] <mav_eric> normally you check out the sources on which the cws is based.
[Fri 22:57:31] <ybart> I have exported CVSROOT=:pserver:firstname.lastname@example.org:/cvs
[Fri 22:57:31] <mav_eric> next you make a backup of those clean sources.
[Fri 22:57:37] <jamesmckenzie> mav_eric: I've never experienced this. Of course, I've downloaded cws's to their own directory.
[Fri 22:58:05] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: That appears to be correct.
[Fri 22:58:23] <mav_eric> next you diff through the cws so that you only get the files that have changed from the cws
[Fri 22:58:43] <mav_eric> everything else still is from the original sources.
[Fri 22:58:55] * mav_eric somewhere has the instructions
[Fri 22:59:44] <ybart> mav_eric: I don't want to have the whole source, I just want to have modules modified by cvs
[Fri 23:00:11] <ybart> mav_eric: I have just done what it is written here : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/AquaBuild#checkout_Aquavcl01_.2850_MB.29:
[Fri 23:00:19] <jamesmckenzie> mav_eric: That is correct from what I remember working with cws. I think the instructions are on the Wiki for building the native version. Here it is: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Native_Controls
[Fri 23:00:48] <obr> I can confirm ybart's observations, I just c & p his commands and get the full OOo checked out
[Fri 23:01:31] <obr> but most modules with empty directories
[Fri 23:01:32] * cloph just posts the link again: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Building_OpenOffice.org#Building_a_CWS
[Fri 23:01:36] <jamesmckenzie> obr: This is "not good".
[Fri 23:02:05] <obr> I think the option that safes him will be -P
[Fri 23:02:09] <mav_eric> ybart: sorry. I missunderstood you.
[Fri 23:02:11] <cloph> Better just use the modules instead of the OOo2 alias. This will save time as well as only fetch the necessary bits...
[Fri 23:02:21] <ybart> mav_eric: No problem :-)
[Fri 23:02:44] <jamesmckenzie> cloph: Thanks. I was just pointing out where ericb2 put the latest build instructions on the Wiki for building the native version.
[Fri 23:04:40] <shaunmcdonald> Does anyone else have some native port news?
[Fri 23:06:34] <shaunmcdonald> Does anyone have any other news regarding the Mac Port?
[Fri 23:06:48] <ismael_> i have to go, good night
[Fri 23:06:55] * shaunmcdonald has setup a Mac buildbot
[Fri 23:07:00] <shaunmcdonald> ismael_: night
[Fri 23:07:09] <obr> ismael_: good night
[Fri 23:07:14] <obr> the AFP problem seems to be solved
[Fri 23:07:17] <jamesmckenzie> ismael_: Good night, good to meet you and good luck with your build.
[Fri 23:07:29] <ismael_> thanks
[Fri 23:07:42] <-- ismael_ has quit ()
[Fri 23:07:44] <ybart> ismael_: good night
[Fri 23:07:44] <shaunmcdonald> with the first successful compile yesterday :-)
[Fri 23:07:57] <shaunmcdonald> obr: that is good news
[Fri 23:08:03] <obr> I still need to do some regression tests with AFP before the patch can go upstream
[Fri 23:08:10] <obr> on Panther
[Fri 23:08:36] * shaunmcdonald doesn't have a machine that will run Panther :-(
[Fri 23:09:23] <obr> for serious testesting, I need 3 of them : 1 server and 2 clients :(
[Fri 23:09:59] <shaunmcdonald> my buildbot is a 2GHz MacBook, 1GB RAM, almost full 80GB hard disc
[Fri 23:10:09] <jamesmckenzie> obr: I have an older PB G4 that I can destroy and reinstall Panther on. Is this needed?
[Fri 23:10:32] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: You need an external drive....
[Fri 23:11:06] <shaunmcdonald> it will be available mostly in the evenings and weekends since compile time is about 9 hours, with me doing stuff on it
[Fri 23:11:14] <obr> jamesmckenzie: no thanks, I would need the machine locally. Happily I have 3 PPC machines, but need some more disk space.
[Fri 23:11:34] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Ok. I thought you might need downstream testing
[Fri 23:11:44] <shaunmcdonald> the compile time should be reduced now that I have ccache installed
[Fri 23:12:10] <jamesmckenzie> obr: I have two systems, I could connect them together. Both are running Tiger (10.4.8).
[Fri 23:12:13] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: I have an external hard drive mostly for backups
[Fri 23:13:00] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: I have one for the same purpose. It is a leftover from my PC days 8D
[Fri 23:13:00] <obr> jamesmckenzie: unfortunatly it makes a difference whether two clients connect to one AFP server or if one client is the server itself
[Fri 23:13:30] <obr> I plan to publish my results in the wiki
[Fri 23:13:45] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Ok. Wiki page?
[Fri 23:14:07] <obr> jamesmckenzie: does not exist yet.
[Fri 23:14:12] <shaunmcdonald> obr: is there a CWS for it yet?
[Fri 23:14:46] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Issue number? That way we can track it there until the Wiki is done.
[Fri 23:15:39] * obr still has to re-opened the old AFP -Issue
[Fri 23:15:57] <obr> but we have some large scale testers already
[Fri 23:16:16] * obr is convinced file locking on AFP worked with Panther
[Fri 23:17:08] <obr> I'll let you know as soon as there is something to look at.
[Fri 23:18:33] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Ok. I can wait on your test results. Would you like testing on a Tiger only network?
[Fri 23:19:02] <obr> jamesmckenzie: sure, can't hurt. The more testing the better.
[Fri 23:19:53] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Thanks.
[Fri 23:20:08] <obr> another topic: do we all have the same idea how OOo should behave as Mac application in the long term ?
[Fri 23:20:28] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Apple HIG compliant with an installer?
[Fri 23:21:27] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: and there was me thinking it was going to be the drag and drop install
[Fri 23:22:02] * shaunmcdonald sees there might still be a bit of a fight over the package installer or the drag and drop install
[Fri 23:22:25] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: It is easier to do some of the things we are doing through an Installer, however, the d-n-d option should never be overlooked.
[Fri 23:22:40] <obr> Do all agree we want separate launchers ?
[Fri 23:22:47] <obr> for each app ?
[Fri 23:23:07] * shaunmcdonald that's why we need the installer
[Fri 23:23:15] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: The preferred way (for Apple) is the drag & drop install.
[Fri 23:23:57] <obr> with separate launchers we would have to drag a folder, no ?
[Fri 23:24:28] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: I agree. But if we want to look like the others (separate application icons for Draw, Impres, Writer, etc.) we will need an installer. It is hard to get users to drag-n-drop just one application.
[Fri 23:24:29] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: But Apple still provides Package tools when install process cannot be d&g
[Fri 23:24:58] <shaunmcdonald> has read the apple docs - ybart
[Fri 23:26:37] <ybart> jamesmckenzie: MS Office on Mac provides both drag & drop and installer
[Fri 23:27:14] <ybart> jamesmckenzie: For Office, the user have to drag the Office folder in its app forder
[Fri 23:29:15] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: That is why I stated that we need to implement both an installer and the drag-n-drop methods.
[Fri 23:29:39] <ybart> jamesmckenzie: Sounds good for me
[Fri 23:30:14] <jamesmckenzie> ybart: Thank you. I think we need to keep track with both. I think there is an existing IZ for the installer.
[Fri 23:30:31] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: there is
[Fri 23:31:12] <mav_eric> +1 for installer and d+d
[Fri 23:31:39] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: that reminds me, there is an issue with the icon alignment in the ooo 2.1 disk images, I think ericb2 can fix it
[Fri 23:31:51] <obr> #i63630#
[Fri 23:32:02] <IZBot> porting DEFECT UNCONFIRMED Use Installable Package (.pkg) for OpenOffice.org X11 Mac http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=63630
[Fri 23:32:29] <shaunmcdonald> on the installer and d+d method, how much extra space on the disk image is it going to use?
[Fri 23:33:15] <obr> shaunmcdonald: you want both in the same disk image ?
[Fri 23:33:35] <shaunmcdonald> obr: that's a good question
[Fri 23:33:37] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: Just the Installer size, if we do a simple installer
[Fri 23:33:39] <mav_eric> obr: if it's not that much more disk space I agree with shaunmcdonald
[Fri 23:34:01] * obr was just surprised
[Fri 23:34:09] <mav_eric> everything else would be confusing
[Fri 23:34:12] <obr> BTW language packs are hard for d-n-d install
[Fri 23:34:32] <shaunmcdonald> obr: it would be more complex if we were to have many download options
[Fri 23:34:44] <ybart> obr: If we use the MS way, it would be on the same disk, but we don't spread it on physical supports, so I don't really now, probably yes
[Fri 23:35:18] <shaunmcdonald> obr: how much extra space would it take to put all the lang packs in the same app?
[Fri 23:35:30] <mav_eric> obr: about language packs. Are they working for OS X now?
[Fri 23:35:51] <ybart> obr: In Apple Installer, we have several approaches
[Fri 23:36:12] * shaunmcdonald thinks we could have one build which would have all the lang packs in it, and people can then change the lanuage of ooo as they please
[Fri 23:36:23] <ybart> obr: And we can make links to files outside the Installer App
[Fri 23:36:52] <obr> shaunmcdonald: I don't know off hand, but my guess would be "twice as large"
[Fri 23:37:16] <mav_eric> shaunmcdonald: that's the way Neo folks do but the real big files are the help files
[Fri 23:37:24] <obr> shaunmcdonald: every time the language pack thing get's discussed, people are complaining about download sizes.
[Fri 23:37:28] <ericb2> hell o
[Fri 23:37:35] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: May be there is a way to have the languages managed in a native way (i.e with xxx.lproj folders)
[Fri 23:37:42] <mav_eric> hi ericb2
[Fri 23:37:44] <ericb2> sorry, I just am back from Besancon
[Fri 23:37:49] <ybart> hi ericb2
[Fri 23:38:01] <ybart> ericb2: Was it a good trip ?
[Fri 23:38:09] <ericb2> ybart: yes ;-)
[Fri 23:38:24] <obr> mav_eric: no, language packs still not work on OS X. I never started working on this due to the open installer question
[Fri 23:38:26] <jamesmckenzie> ericb2: Greetings. I'm here this week.
[Fri 23:38:36] <obr> ericb2: Hi Eric
[Fri 23:38:40] <ericb2> jamesmckenzie: hi james
[Fri 23:38:50] * ericb2 reads the log [Fri 23:39:04] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Is there an open issue for the language pack issue?
[Fri 23:39:19] <shaunmcdonald> obr: mav_eric: file size download will probably be the limiting factor here
[Fri 23:39:27] <mav_eric> obr: thanks. I've had a question from a user via pm
[Fri 23:39:37] <obr> jamesmckenzie: yes: issue 64937
[Fri 23:39:47] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Thanks.
[Fri 23:39:49] <IZBot> porting DEFECT NEW language pack packaging doesn't work http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=64937
[Fri 23:39:58] <obr> IZBot: thanks
[Fri 23:40:00] <IZBot> Always a pleasure helping you :-)
[Fri 23:40:40] * shaunmcdonald thinks the other option would be to include the main language packs (de fr etc) but not all of them (langs rarely used, they would be installed separetely [Fri 23:43:16] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: Maybe we should look at region specific. Say Western Europe, Central Europe, Cyrillic Languages, Indian subcontinent, etc.
[Fri 23:43:56] <obr> jamesmckenzie: I just re-opened the AFP issue 64937
[Fri 23:43:59] * shaunmcdonald jamesmckenzie: that's another (similar and possibly better) option
[Fri 23:44:06] <IZBot> porting DEFECT NEW language pack packaging doesn't work http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=64937
[Fri 23:44:11] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Thank you.
[Fri 23:44:21] <jamesmckenzie> IZBot: Thank you.
[Fri 23:44:31] <obr> sorry, wrong paste buffer
[Fri 23:44:43] <obr> #i 62229#
[Fri 23:45:02] <obr> #i62229#
[Fri 23:45:04] <jamesmckenzie> obr: What is the target?
[Fri 23:45:14] <IZBot> framework DEFECT REOPENED Cannot acccess any resources via AFP http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=62229
[Fri 23:45:59] <jamesmckenzie> IZBot: Thank you.
[Fri 23:46:23] <obr> jamesmckenzie: still 2.0.3. I try to get the new fix ready for 2.1 in time, but can't promise.
[Fri 23:47:41] <jamesmckenzie> obr: I don't mind a wait until 2.2.
[Fri 23:51:53] <jamesmckenzie> all:
[Fri 23:52:18] <jamesmckenzie> all: Have to go SO needs to go to her college.
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[Fri 23:55:54] <shaunmcdonald> Does anyone else have any more news or questions for point 1?
[Fri 23:56:10] <shaunmcdonald> Point 1: Welcome new devs /Aqua News
[Fri 23:56:42] <shaunmcdonald> If there isn't any, we can move on to
[Fri 23:56:43] <shaunmcdonald> Point 2: a point about Mac OS X issues
[Fri 23:57:17] * shaunmcdonald thinks it was ericb2 that wanted to bring this one up
[Fri 23:58:57] <ericb2> Yes, I think we can start point 2
[Sat 00:00:30] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: go ahead then, you know more than me about this
[Sat 00:03:05] <ericb2> first, sorry for being late
[Sat 00:04:22] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: no problem, you are here now, and that is what matters :-)
[Sat 00:05:37] <ericb2> currently, 56 issues are assigned to me
[Sat 00:05:56] <ericb2> IMHO, this is too much
[Sat 00:06:29] * shaunmcdonald remembers ericb2 mentioning this before
[Sat 00:07:01] <ericb2> yes, I already mentionned this, but none proposed to take some issues over
[Sat 00:08:13] * shaunmcdonald doesn't even have the privileges to close some issues that only affect 1.0.3 or 1.1.x
[Sat 00:08:48] <ericb2> is anyone interested to take over some X11 issues ?
[Sat 00:09:18] <obr> ericb2: do you think this would make them get fixed faster ? ;-)
[Sat 00:10:02] <ericb2> obr: I think so : I want to concentrate myself with code, and I cant
[Sat 00:14:09] <obr> ericb2: wouldn't it make more sense to have a "mac porting team" user in IZ, which would own those Issues ?
[Sat 00:14:57] <ericb2> obr: yes, good idea
[Sat 00:15:20] <obr> "not yet assigned" issues would be easy to query this way.
[Sat 00:15:34] <ericb2> obr: what I don't know is : does it make sense for QA to assign issues to mac porting team instead as one people
[Sat 00:16:33] <obr> do you mean QA of a CWS ?
[Sat 00:18:03] <ericb2> obr: or Mac OS X issue could be assigned to mac porting team, and one people with skill could reassign for himself the issue he's able to fix ?
[Sat 00:18:35] <ericb2> obr: for QA'ing a CWS, mac porting team is not a good idea
[Sat 00:18:47] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: it would only be unconfirmed issues or new issues that no one has taken responibility for that will get the mac porting team user
[Sat 00:19:12] <obr> ericb2: right. It is just a pool of issues not yet worked on.
[Sat 00:20:49] <obr> and the e-mail alias for this user could be mac@porting [Sat 00:21:15] <ericb2> obr: yes : this way, more transparency, and everything will be more open
[Sat 00:22:14] <shaunmcdonald> obr: +1
[Sat 00:22:41] <ericb2> yes, +1 for me too
[Sat 00:23:25] <ericb2> and the number of remaining issues vcould be discussed regularly
[Sat 00:24:23] <ybart> ericb2: At each meeting for example...
[Sat 00:24:47] <ericb2> ybart: yes, e.g.
[Sat 00:25:42] <ericb2> other questions about this point ?
[Sat 00:26:21] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: how soon will we be able to have the team user setup?
[Sat 00:26:38] <shaunmcdonald> (in IZ)
[Sat 00:27:10] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: no idea. I'll propose that to Martin Hollmichel, and if he agrees, I'll create the user
[Sat 00:27:27] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: ok
[Sat 00:28:11] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: e.g. user mac_team, with mac@porting mail or something. Should be easy to do
[Sat 00:28:50] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: +1
[Sat 00:28:59] <mav_eric> +1
[Sat 00:29:28] * ericb2 has to discuss with mh first ..
[Sat 00:30:10] <obr> ericb2: just query for the user 'requirements' ;-)
[Sat 00:30:19] <ericb2> obr: yes
[Sat 00:30:59] <ericb2> obr: is it possible to discuss about printing ?
[Sat 00:31:24] <obr> ericb2: I don't know much about printing
[Sat 00:31:32] <ericb2> obr: I have read kendy's comment, and I wonder why there is a factory for everything, and not for printing in vcl code ?
[Sat 00:32:39] <ericb2> obr: I have read, this afternoon, a big part of vcl/source/control (buttons.cxx .. scrbar.cxx .. ),and I always found Impl... something or getNative..something
[Sat 00:33:03] <ericb2> obr: how does it work on Windows ?
[Sat 00:33:08] <obr> ericb2: this all came in very recently
[Sat 00:33:25] <obr> ericb2: the simply did not get to the printing dialog
[Sat 00:33:30] <obr> they
[Sat 00:33:38] <ericb2> obr: just missing, right ?
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[Sat 00:34:10] <shaunmcdonald> jamesmckenzie: your back
[Sat 00:34:13] <obr> the other thing is: the filepicker example showed that it's not trivial to have a native dialog that keeps up with the internal one regarding features
[Sat 00:34:46] <obr> people wrote hundreds of bugs about things that did not work in the native version, but in the VCL one
[Sat 00:34:59] <jamesmckenzie> shaunmcdonald: Yes. This took a lot longer..
[Sat 00:35:11] <ericb2> obr: agreed. Some parts are strange
[Sat 00:35:49] <ericb2> obr: so you suggest to prefer somethng Filepicker like instead of getNative ...
[Sat 00:35:52] <ericb2> ?
[Sat 00:36:03] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Yes it is not trivial to switch from the X11 filepicker to the Mac one. Much to work to move over.
[Sat 00:36:19] <obr> Last time I checked, it was impossible to print parts of a spreadsheet in Neo.
[Sat 00:36:33] <obr> This is not acceptable for power users.
[Sat 00:37:00] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Function like select part of the spreadsheet, File -> Print? This is totally not acceptable.
[Sat 00:37:10] <ericb2> obr: which solution do they use ?
[Sat 00:37:34] <obr> jamesmckenzie: yes, but this was pre 2.0. Haven't checked again.
[Sat 00:37:41] <ericb2> obr: me neither
[Sat 00:37:53] <obr> ericb2: they simply bring up the native print dialog as is
[Sat 00:37:58] <obr> no additions
[Sat 00:38:21] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Ok. I know this was broken in NeoOffice 1.2 as I worked on that project. I don't know if this was fixed in any of later work.
[Sat 00:39:06] <ericb2> obr: ah .. ok, using direct native implementation does not allow to select part of spreadsheet. Yes, first days of QA, and this issue will be reported
[Sat 00:39:55] <obr> in fact, we are not talking about one native dialog to implement, but a set of - one for each app.
[Sat 00:40:51] <obr> Not sure whether this should be configurable or not if the solution is complete enough.
[Sat 00:41:24] <ericb2> obr: IMHO, we have to start with 'existing analysis'
[Sat 00:41:34] <ericb2> obr: and write what we need
[Sat 00:41:34] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Are we talking about the print dialog?
[Sat 00:41:45] <obr> jamesmckenzie: yes.
[Sat 00:42:12] <ericb2> obr: to make short, which solution do you prefer ?
[Sat 00:42:19] <jamesmckenzie> obr: I state that we should use the native print dialog with as few modifications as possible.
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[Sat 00:42:45] * ericb2 tries the so-called native dialog with safari
[Sat 00:43:34] <obr> jamesmckenzie: I agree, but the functionality of the VCL dialog should be there (in a Mac style way)
[Sat 00:43:52] <ericb2> obr: so we have to write what is missing
[Sat 00:44:04] <ericb2> (lot of code)
[Sat 00:44:32] <jamesmckenzie> obr: I agree. I just looked at the print dialog in Thunderbird. It will take some work.
[Sat 00:47:01] <ybart> What can be the starting point for Print dialog ?
[Sat 00:48:49] <ericb2> ybart: when you start from Carbon, do you have an idea about what is missing to "glu" with vcl ?
[Sat 00:48:58] <ericb2> maybe stick is better
[Sat 00:50:02] <ybart> IMHO we need to know where is the call for the PrintDialog class from svtools
[Sat 00:50:41] <ybart> We should check whether we are on MacOS X or not, in the positive case, use AquaPrintDialog instead
[Sat 00:51:18] <ybart> Once done, we can start to modify the class in order to make it calls Carbon dialog
[Sat 00:52:02] <ericb2> ybart: the current way is to check if isNativeControlSupported is true for controls. We should implement the same for printing dialogs
[Sat 00:52:35] <ybart> Then, we should implement the behaviour (mostly getting the parameters for Carbon, and set them in the Printer class) [Sat 00:52:39] <ericb2> ybart: this way, all ports will benefit of the possibility
[Sat 00:53:16] <ybart> ericb2: I don't really understand what does isNativeControlSupported
[Sat 00:54:20] <ericb2> ybart: in runtime, several bollean variables are checked. When true it means an existing native implementation is used, and will replace the basic vcl one
[Sat 00:55:04] <ericb2> ybart: this way, we draw native controls, and this is possible on MAc OS x, on Linux (gtk and kde), and Windows
[Sat 00:55:20] <obr> ericb2: wouldn't the value of "Use OOo dialogs" in Tools - Options fit better ?
[Sat 00:55:41] <obr> it is used for the file-picker
[Sat 00:55:45] <ericb2> obr: of course. I'm not an expert, and you always have good ideas ;-)
[Sat 00:55:58] <ybart> ericb2: I still don't understand, how the system differentiate calls to the Aqua native, Win native, Gtk native etc.
[Sat 00:56:30] <obr> If I had the time, I would introduce UNO interface as for the file picker
[Sat 00:56:45] <ericb2> ybart: simple : every OS builds it's own libraries, and every library does call the corresponding implementation
[Sat 00:57:16] <ybart> ericb2: Is it done by configure ?
[Sat 00:57:27] <ericb2> ybart: + in buildtime
[Sat 00:57:36] <ybart> ericb2: i.e. using #ifdef ?
[Sat 00:57:40] <ericb2> ybart: on windows, you only build what Windows expects
[Sat 00:57:57] <ericb2> ybart: and solenv does complete
[Sat 00:58:09] <obr> ybart: on each OS, there are always two implementations: one drawing the widgets with Windows 95 look and feel and one using some hacks for looking like OS control
[Sat 00:59:07] <ybart> I really need to have more information on this...
[Sat 00:59:16] <ybart> Where should I look ?
[Sat 00:59:38] <ybart> I get the idea, but not the details...
[Sat 01:00:38] <ericb2> ybart: we can discuss about that later :-)
[Sat 01:00:54] <ybart> For instance, if we use IsNativeSupported, it returns true, how do we know we are on a Mac rather than Gtk ?
[Sat 01:00:56] <ericb2> ybart: a lot is alrady on my wiki page
[Sat 01:01:13] <ybart> ericb2: I will have a close look
[Sat 01:01:31] <ericb2> ybart: there is a variable used by vcl, SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN="..."
[Sat 01:01:47] <ericb2> ybart: defaut is generic , or gtk or kde
[Sat 01:01:57] <ericb2> ybart: this is only true on unix like
[Sat 01:02:01] <ybart> ok
[Sat 01:02:18] <ericb2> s/generic/gen/
[Sat 01:02:23] <obr> ybart: the gtk code doesn't get compiled on OSX
[Sat 01:03:01] <ybart> obr: How the compiler knows it should not compile it ?
[Sat 01:03:26] <obr> ybart: not the compiler, but the makefile
[Sat 01:03:28] <ericb2> ybart: the makefile
[Sat 01:03:30] <ybart> In other words, how --disable-gtk works ?
[Sat 01:03:49] <obr> .if $(OS)==MACOSX
[Sat 01:03:54] <mav_eric> good night folks.
[Sat 01:04:02] <ybart> ericb2: obr: ok I get the point
[Sat 01:04:04] <mav_eric> i'll read the log
[Sat 01:04:10] <ybart> mav_eric: Good night
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[Sat 01:04:19] <obr> mav_eric: good night
[Sat 01:04:23] <ericb2> ybart: this is at first step -> autoconf produces configure , itself produces environment in MacOSXPowerPCSet.Env.sh ..
[Sat 01:04:41] <ericb2> ybart: and when environment is defined, the makefile help dmake
[Sat 01:05:07] <ybart> Yes, but how do we define the behaviour in the sources ?
[Sat 01:05:24] <ericb2> ybart: and dmake does use other needed informations, corrresponding to the current OS/architecture
[Sat 01:05:35] <ericb2> ybart: solenv/inc does contain everything
[Sat 01:05:40] <ybart> How do we tell : if this flag is set, don't compile that, and use that instead
[Sat 01:05:49] <ybart> ok
[Sat 01:06:02] <ericb2> ybart: I'll continue tomorrow, and in french ?
[Sat 01:06:10] <ybart> ericb2: ok :-)
[Sat 01:06:18] <ericb2> other questions ?
[Sat 01:06:31] <ericb2> or points ?
[Sat 01:06:44] <obr> can I go to sleep now ? ;-)
[Sat 01:06:45] <ybart> It's ok for me
[Sat 01:06:57] <ybart> obr: I want go too :-)
[Sat 01:07:32] <obr> good night / nice day everyone
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[Sat 01:07:46] <ericb2> one more time, sorry for being late, my wife asked me to come on some event, and if was more long than expected
[Sat 01:08:00] <ybart> ericb2: no proble :-)
[Sat 01:08:06] <ybart> ericb2: no problem :-)
[Sat 01:08:07] <jamesmckenzie> obr: Good Night.
[Sat 01:08:20] <ericb2> can anyone send me the log ?
[Sat 01:08:24] <jamesmckenzie> ericb2: Can we discuss QA in two weeks for 2.1.
[Sat 01:08:25] <ericb2> jamesmckenzie: good night
[Sat 01:08:38] <ybart> Yes I can
[Sat 01:08:47] <ericb2> jamesmckenzie: ah, yes -> please propose the point for nect meeting ?
[Sat 01:08:51] <ericb2> next
[Sat 01:09:06] <ericb2> ybart: thank you :-)
[Sat 01:09:10] <jamesmckenzie> ericb2: Not the next, I will not be available.
[Sat 01:09:29] <ericb2> jamesmckenzie: ok : when possible
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