Education ClassRoom/Previous Logs/Hybrid Model of Teaching OpenSource

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Commented version of the IRC meeting

A clean commented version of the meeting can be found at : Link to the Commented version

Thanks to Andreas Meiszner for his work.

Original log

[17:07] <andreasmeiszner> Ok, so shall we start with questions / comments on the suggested hybrid approach to SE. Thus it would be clear to all what it is about?

[17:08] * ericb2 searching the links

[17:08] <chacha_chaudhry>

[17:08] <chacha_chaudhry>

[17:08] <chacha_chaudhry> ericb2: ^^

[17:09] <ericb2> chacha_chaudhry: thanks :)

[17:09] <andreasmeiszner> thx!

[17:09] <chacha_chaudhry> andreasmeiszner: I haven't gone through the approach .. may you explain briefly how it is different from common open source development model.

[17:10] * wtebbens ( has joined

[17:10] <andreasmeiszner> ok, so basically it is a open approach to courses which is dervived from the way open source communities, but also the web more in general works.

[17:10] * andreasma ( has joined

[17:11] <wtebbens> good afternoon all!

[17:11] <andreasmeiszner> hi wouter, welcome!

[17:11] <chacha_chaudhry> wtebbens: hello meeting has already started.

[17:11] <sroy> good evening . it is 21:45 hrs here

[17:11] <andreasma> hi all

[17:11] <wtebbens> hi andreas, sorry I am late (and can only stay for half an hour)

[17:12] <chacha_chaudhry> andreasm wtebbens: we are already following andreasmeiszner .. andreasmeiszner may we continue

[17:12] <andreasmeiszner> the hybrid approach aims to bring together the different involved stakeholders (students & educators from different institutions, open source practitioners & free learners outside of formal education) within a "semi-structured" way

[17:13] <andreasmeiszner> often formal education - even if about open source - follows the traditional "style": closed, isolated, disconnected, static,...

[17:13] <andreasmeiszner> does this still makes sense?

[17:14] <chacha_chaudhry> yep very much.

[17:14] <andreasmeiszner> ok

[17:14] <andreasmeiszner> so just as an example

[17:14] <andreasmeiszner> "learning processess" in open source are often visible and become learning resources for many others

[17:15] <andreasmeiszner> in formal education however - they are normally "lost" or disconnected from learning materials

[17:15] <andreasmeiszner> so this is the learning process side that we e.g. want to adress with the hybrid approach

[17:16] <andreasmeiszner> within an open environment, such as the piloted side (still just early playing), the different stakeholders might engage analogue to the way it can be seen in open source

[17:17] <andreasmeiszner> therefore providing a richer learning experience, sharing the burden amongst different institutions on providing basic information and allowing e.g. that contributions to an open source student by student A could be a useful learning resource for students X,Y,Z

[17:18] <andreasmeiszner> this means "semi-structured", because contributions could also be found by students XYZ, if they "search the web" - but like this it would be more convenient for them

[17:18] <andreasmeiszner> uff - hope you are still with me

[17:19] daeseon david_jaco

[17:19] >david_jaco< : the log will be available there :

[17:19] <chacha_chaudhry> yes

[17:19] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: sure :)

[17:19] <david_jaco> sure

[17:20] <fardad> yes

[17:20] <wtebbens> sounds good

[17:20] <andreasmeiszner> ok - such an hybrid approach should be "less" conflicting with the educational structures we are operating at

[17:21] <andreasmeiszner> because teachers can still "lecture" their courses as the need to (legal constraints), yet an environment like e.g. netgeners provides a more informal collaborative space

[17:22] <andreasmeiszner> such an environment could than be - step by step - improved to gradually advance ans slowly mature

[17:22] <andreasmeiszner> to respect e.g. legal and cultural constraints of formal education

[17:22] <andreasmeiszner> this is the sshort to medium aspect, in the long term certainly there would be much more in it

[17:23] <andreasmeiszner> e.g. virtual internships, certification against for paid assessment for "free learners outside of formal education", etcetc

[17:23] <andreasmeiszner> ideally all involved sides should gain

[17:24] <andreasmeiszner> ok - questions? before this ends up in a monologue?

[17:24] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: no, it isn't

[17:25] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner:

[17:25] <ericb2> I think the Education Project is already another model of hybrid approach, because we :

[17:25] <ericb2> - work with schools, and profs

[17:25] <ericb2> - we are involved in the project

[17:25] <ericb2> - we propose real tasks, in production mode

[17:25] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I don't know how close are both (your hybrid approach and Education Project approach), but they look similar

[17:25] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: excepted we have no resources

[17:26] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: but both are winner-winner models

[17:26] <andreasmeiszner> yes, your work is close to this - except maybe to provide a more convenient space to make students work visible and relate it as well to educational materials as to their work in open source - but in principle your work is very close

[17:26] * Sowe ( has joined

[17:27] <andreasmeiszner> Hello Sulayman / Sowe

[17:27] <Sowe> Hello all

[17:27] <Sowe> Hello Andreas

[17:27] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I think this will improve : I met the Computing Department director saturday, and he was very enthousiast to know what we do. He even invited me to present the project asap

[17:27] <andreasmeiszner> Let me shortly introduce Sulayman: he started the work at Aristotle, sending out students to open source projects

[17:27] <ericb2> Sowe: be welcome :)

[17:28] <wtebbens> I wonder what differences there are between the two mentioned approaches, for the fact of the having or not having resources. ericb2 and andreasmeiszner any comment?

[17:28] <andreasmeiszner> eric, this is perfect. and i think what would be a good way forward is to put the concepts together and build on our current works - type of sherry picking

[17:28] <wtebbens> (if I understand correctly :))

[17:29] <ericb2> wtebbens: better organization from andreasmeiszner side ? More advanced state too maybe

[17:29] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I forgot : Computing Department director of UTBM (my school)

[17:29] <andreasmeiszner> but less practical experiences - by now we mainly have set up the models / structures

[17:30] <andreasmeiszner> means - our work is less advanced than OO work

[17:30] <Sowe> The Auth approach, now called the outside approach worked well for us and our students

[17:30] <andreasmeiszner> in practical terms

[17:31] <andreasmeiszner> as detailed at the paper EDUCATION

[17:31] <Sowe> the limitation we found out as highlighted with the flosscom project is that the students have less opportunity to interact with the "outside word"

[17:31] <andreasmeiszner> we tried to map existing approaches to be found to models

[17:32] <Sowe> i think this is where the Netgeners project by Andreas comes to be very important

[17:32] <andreasmeiszner> and found out that universities either send their students out (outside approach) into well established communities

[17:32] <andreasmeiszner> or tried to apply the principles of virtual communities within their institution (inside approach)

[17:33] <andreasmeiszner> however, the highest value would be a mix of both - the hybrid approach

[17:33] <andreasmeiszner> and this is what we suggest

[17:34] <Sowe> The SE education model for the outside approach can be found here:

[17:34] <andreasmeiszner> wtebbens: not sure if the differnce is clear?!?

[17:34] <ericb2> Sowe: thanks :)

[17:35] * danielbw ( has joined

[17:35] <danielbw> ericb2, ping?

[17:35] daeseon danielbw david_jaco

[17:37] <ericb2> danielbw: hello

[17:38] <wtebbens> andreasmeiszner: the outside and inside approaches seem intuitive to me. however I wonder in how far can learners who are not registered as students in your institution join the learning process?

[17:38] <IZBot> News from cws: fwk99: nominated || macmiscfixes: nominated

[17:38] * jza (n=jza@ has joined

[17:38] <jza> hey ericb2

[17:38] <jza> just made it

[17:39] <ericb2> jza: hello. meeting ;)

[17:39] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: how do you proceed to evaluate the candidates +?

[17:40] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: which candidates?

[17:40] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: the students

[17:40] <andreasmeiszner> this is done by the Aristotle team

[17:40] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I'm not sure of the words, but thre are two types of courses : evaluative and informative

[17:40] <Sowe> wtebbens: the idea is that if our students should expose and discuss their assignments (software testing, requirement analysis, coding) on the netgeners platform, other students and free learners can engage them and exchange ideas

[17:41] <andreasmeiszner> english-presentation

[17:41] <andreasmeiszner> at this presentation they indicate to the students how they would be eveluated

[17:42] <andreasmeiszner> one aspect still missing would be "peer-review" - for which a hybrid model might allow

[17:42] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: indeed. essential

[17:42] <Sowe> previously (2005 -2008) student only downloaded software from projects, reported bugs and were only in contact with their respective project communities

[17:43] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: from my side, I proposed to define a list of expected know how and so on. and the student should proof he validated every during the project

[17:43] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: yes, e.g. the netgeners page has the (joomla) commenting and ranking option that could "complement" evaluations

[17:44] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: one option would be to have A. the students work in progress and B. let them produce an outcome to be made publicly available

[17:46] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: it was an open question :) In fact, I often see the applied task (on the outside side), as the particular case. and the inside case more generic. Hot to be sure the "generic" is validated working on the outside side ?

[17:47] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: means how to be sur the student understood the concept and not solved one case only, means it's not sure he will solve another similar problem

[17:49] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: understood. yes this is a challenge. on the theoretical side I also find this approach close to what we do:

[17:49] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: The PI model applied within project based students work

[17:51] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: bookmarked. Thanks :)

[17:52] <Sowe> good helsinki approach

[17:52] <Sowe> many educators seems to be doing the same thing around the globe

[17:53] <Sowe> Comment on evaluation

[17:53] <andreasmeiszner> Sowe: yes, with many different names - but often going into the same direction

[17:53] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: as a partial answer, in the Education Project, we have choosen to delegate the evaluation to the prof managing the student. But this is just a workaround

[17:54] <Sowe> Netgeners participants from auth are still students expecting grades in their project work. how will 'self evaluation' and peer review compliment their grades?

[17:55] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: regarding "workaround" - I think for the time being "workarounds" are important to slowly build up virtual learning arrangements / environments. Means to improve them based on identified NEEDS, instead of just going back to the elearning hype mistakes and designing complex systems that than won't work as hoped

[17:55] <Sowe> ericb2 do you have you evaluation process discussed somewhere?

[17:56] <ericb2> Sowe: I started long time ago, but so far not too much of people were interested

[17:56] <ericb2> Sowe: but this will become concrete with our growing visibility

[17:57] fredus froumi

[17:57] <ericb2> Sowe: e.g. Ecole Centrale Nantes appreciated what we did, and we'll discuss how to improve concretely around end of March

[17:58] <ericb2> Sowe: same for UTBM , more easy, because local for me :)

[17:59] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: we build everything from scratch : often the most difficult task

[17:59] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: that's the reason why I'm glad to learn of you and all other approaches

[18:00] <Sowe> ok ericb2. if you have access to the OSS 2006 proceedings, i discussed our evaluation procedure

[18:00] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: Any concrete roadmap forward? regarding "from scratch" - the netgeners space is - obvioulsy - open source components and easily to identified needs

[18:00] <andreasmeiszner> sorry for the english

[18:00] <Sowe> or send me email and i send you some doc on some of our experience at Auth in implementing the outside approach

[18:01] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: we need help. We wrote a lot, but don't have enough of people helping. this is another problem we have

[18:01] <ericb2> Sowe: I don't think I have access.

[18:02] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: the roadmap is have results with Seneca College students (11), ECN students ( 4) and UTBM students ( 4) + finalize the work a student from Epitech did

[18:02] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: what i meant is: the netgeners space consists of open source solutions, and if you don't want to start from scratch be welcome to use the space or software.

[18:03] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: we don't start from scratch. I'm used to manage projcts too (I did for the Mac port previously). What we need is more people involved. There is too much to do

[18:04] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: in the roadmap, fardad should help me soon :)

[18:04] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: and I expect other will join, to teach what we do

[18:05] <fardad> andreasmeiszner: I think what you suggest is very close to what we do in seneca where students form a small community in college and do "Open WorkShops". They can use any Open resource in the world to do their tasks. When they understand how "Open Source" work in general, they join open source communites and work on real projects.

[18:05] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: do you know if someone from here be at the educamp workshop? We are currently setting up a proposal for the Erasmus call to request funding to get this work further - though the funding available is max 300k per project over 2 years (at 75%) funding rate

[18:06] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: excepted me - I have to change my plane - I don't think thre will someone else, but I hope I'm wrong :)

[18:07] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I'm not sure to understand how OOo Education Project could be concerned, sorry

[18:07] <andreasmeiszner> fardad: this seems to be very close - what I think could still be missing is to have all of those different initiatives linked in a more structured way (like netgeners / hybrid approach suggests).

[18:08] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: andreasmeiszner: I'm not sure to understand how OOo Education Project could be concerned, sorry - could you explain this please, i don't understand it

[18:09] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: yes, if I'm not wrong Erasmus is for schools, or at least official institutions, right ?

[18:09] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: we are nothing of that

[18:10] <andreasmeiszner> Specific call objective: 2.2.2. Projects focusing on cooperation between higher education institutions and enterprises

[18:10] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: the only official thing we have around is the non profit association, allowing us to manipulate money

[18:10] <Sowe> My sincere apology for leaving this very interesting discussion....i have an appointment now

[18:10] <andreasmeiszner> see ya sulayman!

[18:10] <ericb2> Sowe: the log will be available there :

[18:10] <ericb2> (partial log for now of course :)

[18:10] <Sowe> Andreas: hopefully we should this kind of session again.

[18:10] * fredus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

[18:11] <ericb2> Sowe: you're welcome :)

[18:11] <Sowe> ah thanks ericb2 for the logs

[18:11] <jza> for log porpouses can someone list the conclusion

[18:11] <Sowe> bye for now

[18:11] <ericb2> Sowe: bye

[18:12] <jza> it would be easier now that the information is still fresh

[18:12] * Sowe has quit ("Leaving")

[18:12] <andreasmeiszner> jza: I think we haven't summed it up yet (but should do)

[18:15] <andreasmeiszner> From my side two conclusions would be A. to see if the open office educational projects and the netgeners / hybrid idea could be aligned. E.g. also Mozilla is working in the same direction

[18:16] * Eleni ( has joined

[18:16] * ericb2 thinks the presentation is extremely important, because available documents are a good starting point

[18:16] <ericb2> Eleni: hello :)

[18:16] <andreasmeiszner> IMO there is much room to avoid duplicate work, look for common grounds,save resources and create triple win scenarios

[18:16] <Eleni> hello!

[18:16] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: exactly. We can save years

[18:16] <andreasmeiszner> hi eleni!

[18:16] <Eleni> i am sorry for the delay

[18:17] <andreasmeiszner> no prob

[18:17] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I'll do my best to attend the Camp

[18:17] >Eleni< the log is there :

[18:18] <andreasmeiszner> and B. would be (in the case there is a common ground) to put in a joint project proposal for funding - Erasmus call would be the first option, but likely further to come

[18:18] <andreasmeiszner> so we would have a better (financial) base - because by now also our work is "non-funded"

[18:20] * katerina ( has joined

[18:20] <katerina> hello

[18:20] <ericb2> katerina: hello :)

[18:20] <katerina> sorry for the delay

[18:20] <jza> hi katerina

[18:20] >katerina< : FYI the log is there :

[18:20] <andreasmeiszner> hi katerina!

[18:21] <andreasmeiszner> Katerina & Eleni are from the Aristotl course team btw. They continue the work that Sowe started

[18:21] * jza_ (n=jza@ has joined

[18:22] <andreasmeiszner> @all: further sum up suggestions?

[18:22] <ericb2> In the conclusion, things are clear for me: we should really take care to avoid duplicated efforts

[18:22] <ericb2> the reflexion is imho enough advanced, and it's time for choose / stick to a model , or at least define rules to work together

[18:22] <fardad> amen to that...

[18:24] <david_jaco> I have to leave, but I'll check the wiki and documents, there's certainly room for collaboration with some of the projects we're working on

[18:24] <david_jaco> see you all!

[18:24] <ericb2> david_jaco: see you :)

[18:24] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: I agree as there is no added value for no side. Also: whichever "virtual solution" chosen is fine for me - but I think that it should not be a one to many approach (e.g. one university to several open source projects, or several universities to one open source projects) - max value would be a many to many solution

[18:24] <andreasmeiszner> by david!

[18:25] * david_jaco has quit ("Ex-Chat")

[18:26] <ericb2> another question nobody asked. what is the most interesting ? create developers from inside or from outside the project. So far this is a uniq case for me

[18:26] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: ? sorry, I am lost on this?

[18:26] <ericb2> fardad: if I'm not wrong, the Seneca college is not Mozila , isn't it ?

[18:26] <fardad> ericb2: Oh, now I got it,

[18:27] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: Education Project aims to find developers, and teahc them everything. At least that's what I do for all the students I mentored

[18:27] <fardad> no, seneca works Most activly with Mozilla, then Fedora, IBM Eclipse and then OOo

[18:27] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: so far, only does that. My question was : is it a good thing ?

[18:28] * fredus ( has joined

[18:28] <ericb2> fardad: here it is one to one

[18:28] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: it is clear to me that each open source project is looking for ways to get in contributers, but yet I think a common (many to many) approach has more to offer - at least if all sides are to win

[18:30] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: so what would be the way forward? meeting at educamp, if you can make it?

[18:31] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: this is an important point, indeed. When we discussed the point some times ago, the reason we found was: there is so much of code in that you can do approximatively everything

[18:31] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I'll try

[18:31] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: once sure, I'll tell you

[18:31] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: not siple to change a plane once booked

[18:31] <ericb2> simple

[18:31] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: ok, alternative ways forward?

[18:32] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: meeting at educamp is imho the best

[18:32] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: because lot of other proposals will be presented I guess

[18:33] <fardad> ok, i think I missed it, educamp?

[18:33] <ericb2> fardad: Mozilla organizes an Educamp in Bruxelles the 6th of february

[18:33] <andreasmeiszner> fardad: Events/EduCamp@FOSDEM2009 - MozillaWiki

[18:33] <andreasmeiszner> sorry

[18:33] <fardad> I see...

[18:33] <andreasmeiszner>

[18:34] <ericb2> fardad: Mark surman announced me that 10 minutes after I booked my plane :/

[18:35] <andreasmeiszner> fardad: This event should be a good opportunity to reflect on way forwards and as it looks a diverse number of people would be present

[18:36] <fardad> I see

[18:38] <ericb2> Other questions ?

[18:38] <andreasmeiszner> so, to sum it up: we try meeting at educamp to discuss ways forward, in the case this won't work - what is the plan b?

[18:39] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: when will you quit Bruxelles ?

[18:39] <fardad> Well, I'll read about it :)

[18:39] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: i will arrive on the 6th at 9.00 and leave on - let me check

[18:40] <andreasmeiszner> ok, flight back is on the 7th at 11.45

[18:41] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: oops, will be difficult. So I must change my plane. I'll try asap

[18:41] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: oops, will be difficult. So I must change my plane. I'll try asap

[18:42] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: ok, so let me know - if not we can come up with a plan b

[18:43] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: yes, as I said, I'll try asap. Say in 10 minutes

[18:43] <andreasmeiszner> Wouter / Eleni / Katerina - is there still anything from your side?

[18:43] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: ok

[18:44] <jza_> conference call might be a good way to further this without relying on an event IMHO

[18:44] <fardad> jza_: agreed...

[18:45] <fardad> cheers...

[18:45] <ericb2> jza_: this event is very close and extremely important. Anyway, I'll notice everything

[18:45] * fardad is now known as fardad_afk

[18:45] jza jza_

[18:45] <ericb2> jza_: and FYI, I'll have to pay a supplement to change my plane. Nobody will fund that

[18:45] <andreasmeiszner> jza_: conference call could be a plan b - or follow up after the educamp

[18:46] <katerina> no

[18:47] <andreasmeiszner> jza_: if you want we can use the Open University's flashmeeting videoconferencing system - sessions can also be recorded, so others could watch them later

[18:50] <jza_> andreasmeiszner: I think is a very viable and cheap way to move on this affairs

End of meeting

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