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IRC Log of Community Council Meeting 2009-08-20

Attendees

• Sophie Gautier (sophi)
• Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
• Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof_1)
• Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
• Louis Suarez-Potts (oulipo_to)
• André Schnabel (Thalion72)
• Stefan Taxhet (stx12)

Absent

• John McCreesh (jpmcc)
• Pavel Janik (paveljanik)

(20:47:43) oulipo_to: meeting starts
(20:47:47) oulipo_to: the agenda is at:
(20:47:52) oulipo_to: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council/Agenda
(20:47:59) oulipo_to: have all reviewed it?
(20:48:15) Thalion72: yes
(20:48:45) CorNouws: I did.
(20:48:48) oulipo_to: I assume Thalion72 speaks for all?
(20:49:05) mhu: yes, I did
(20:49:07) _Nesshof_1: oulipo_to: of course
(20:49:12) Thalion72: was not my intention ... but if nobody objects ... ;)
(20:49:20) oulipo_to: :-)
(20:49:32) oulipo_to: first couple of items. .... thanks, btw, for the clean agenda!!
(20:49:33) CorNouws: BTW: Justthis evening I added 3 items at the bottom wrt budget - all known topics from the mail, BTW
(20:49:34) oulipo_to: Action items - from previous meeting(s)
(20:49:34) oulipo_to: 1. Budget
(20:49:34) oulipo_to: 1. Louis: use marcon list and post to wiki list of events selected for importance to the community and to OOo's goals
(20:49:34) oulipo_to: 2. Trademark
(20:49:34) oulipo_to: 1. Stefan et all: discuss with Debian (09-07-10) and give feed back
(20:49:35) oulipo_to: 2. then with comments on list: review by the cc , and then start discussion on discuss@
(20:49:49) oulipo_to: CorNouws: okay
(20:50:16) oulipo_to: #1: in process. I've been compiling a list of events, however, that I will propose to marcons
(20:50:38) oulipo_to: there are several sites now that list many and compiling them is easier, as is finding out about them and evaluating them
(20:50:58) oulipo_to: the only real question I've had has how much do we want to touch on ODF related issues.
(20:51:27) oulipo_to: but, I'll propse some that look imporrtant
(20:51:38) CorNouws: Looks to me as a good question for the marketing project
(20:51:43) oulipo_to: so, AI #1: to lsp, in process
(20:51:50) oulipo_to: CorNouws: perhaps
(20:52:09) oulipo_to: the marketing project does not always engage the developer lists, such as XML ones
(20:52:20) oulipo_to: but I'll propose a list and add to it as needed.
(20:52:25) oulipo_to: comments?
(20:52:36) Thalion72: no - fine with me
(20:52:57) CorNouws: OK, the start of this list was the wish toplan for budgetting
(20:53:16) CorNouws: toplan = to plan
(20:53:16) sophi: oulipo_to: ok, btw, I've updated the page on SFD, but still need an answer for team lead :)
(20:53:29) mhu: indeed, proposals where to spend the money was the reason ...
(20:54:11) oulipo_to: yes, and there are other places.... as in enabling regional groiups
(20:54:26) oulipo_to: thanks, sophie
(20:54:48) oulipo_to: SFD=Software Freedom Day, of course--?
(20:55:08) sophi: oulipo_to: yes and the page is the wiki, sorry for the shorcuts
(20:55:13) oulipo_to: no problem
(20:55:34) oulipo_to: on to 2.2: Trademark
(20:55:34) oulipo_to: 1. Stefan et all: discuss with Debian (09-07-10) and give feed back
(20:55:34) oulipo_to: 2. then with comments on list: review by the cc , and then start discussion on discuss@
(20:56:08) stx12: there has been a second call and we'll see revised proposal later this week. a review call is scheduled fo rnext week
(20:56:22) Thalion72: revised by whom?
(20:56:24) ***oulipo_to btw, I'd appreciate it if we could agree on UTC format for dates.... does 09-07-10 refer to 07Sept.? or 09 July?
(20:56:33) stx12: by Sun Legal
(20:56:41) Thalion72: ok
(20:56:50) CorNouws: We've seen the introduction of Tiki Dare on the trademark list, specially interested in this item, I guess
(20:56:53) oulipo_to: I would add that the discussions have been quite positive
(20:56:59) CorNouws: So Tiki = Sun Legal ?
(20:57:02) Thalion72: any discussion with debian and comments from there?
(20:57:11) oulipo_to: and the group discussing has included Tiki (sun legal) as well as Bernhard
(20:57:24) ***mhu thinks 09-07-10 maybe July 10, 2009 ...
(20:57:56) stx12: yes, debian members (rene and mike) were involed.
(20:58:23) CorNouws: Good to read.
(20:59:05) stx12: so to me it looks in progress
(20:59:19) Thalion72: ok
(21:00:05) oulipo_to: yes.
(21:00:33) oulipo_to: 2.2..2 then will occur sometime early September
(21:00:55) oulipo_to: that is, review by the CC, etc.
(21:01:12) oulipo_to: but, it looks good.
(21:01:18) oulipo_to: Shall we move on?
(21:01:33) oulipo_to: but summary to 2.x: in process with progess among stakeholders
(21:02:14) CorNouws: yes thanks
(21:02:26) oulipo_to: 2.3: Elections
(21:02:26) oulipo_to: 1. Thalion72 (and mhu is going to help) to send to louis (and jpmcc) proposal for elections announcement for editing, writing, etc. (around May 30)
(21:02:26) oulipo_to: 2. Louis: ping André ..
(21:02:47) oulipo_to: Update: I had the impression I had pinged André
(21:03:00) oulipo_to: and that we now really ought to get this done
(21:03:00) Thalion72: who did not really answer
(21:03:14) Thalion72: (sry .. phne)
(21:03:23) ***oulipo_to notes it's summer and >30 degrees with the usual brain freeze
(21:03:30) ***mhu did send a note to Thalion72 as well, but did miss an answer also
(21:04:17) oulipo_to: therefore, update is : in process and let's aim to get a draft done by next meeting. The issue that has slowed things is probably the voting calculation / tabulation
(21:04:39) oulipo_to: but otherwise, I see no strong reason we should not issue a note once summer is over and people are actually back from vacation
(21:04:43) oulipo_to: ie, early september
(21:04:54) oulipo_to: comments?
(21:04:57) CorNouws: Sorry, but I had the impression that André is not 'enthousiastic' to work on this ..
(21:05:05) oulipo_to: he is not
(21:05:09) oulipo_to: mhu and I can carry it on
(21:05:28) oulipo_to: the issue fell between the cracks
(21:05:41) mhu: yes, we can do that, of course
(21:05:55) CorNouws: Oh, good (have to find out what "fell between the cracks"means)
(21:06:00) oulipo_to: :-)
(21:06:02) Thalion72: back again ... sorry
(21:06:24) oulipo_to: mhu shall we aim for text by Monday that we can look at?
(21:06:35) oulipo_to: I'll draft something but please please nag me
(21:06:44) mhu: yes, will do
(21:06:49) oulipo_to: my "to do list" is huge and full of contradictory stuff
(21:06:50) oulipo_to: thanks
(21:07:22) ***mhu understands such to do lists first hand :-) no problem
(21:08:22) oulipo_to: So. Summary: Ai LSP to draft preliminary text for elections and work with MHU (AI to him) to send Monday text for review and ocmments with next CC meeting set as deadline for finished text, and elections conceived for early September, after vacations
(21:08:54) mhu: fine with me
(21:09:01) oulipo_to: thanks
(21:09:13) oulipo_to: shall we move on?
(21:09:42) oulipo_to: 2.4. OpenOffice.org Internship
(21:09:42) oulipo_to: 1. Cor (et all): Start of the public process (announcement etc.) asap
(21:09:43) oulipo_to: 2. Louis: to send to contests@marketing update on Seneca College, China (Tsinghua) and others for internship and mentoring
(21:09:56) oulipo_to: CorNouws: do you have an update? (or other?)
(21:10:34) CorNouws: Yes. Florian and I worked on it - as far as we could (early July) and then we started waiting
(21:10:58) CorNouws: Waiting for others to review rules, possible tasks and so on
(21:11:14) oulipo_to: okay.. and discussiosn have been on the list?
(21:11:19) CorNouws: Yesterday (or before) I saw a mail from Juergen - about todo's
(21:11:24) oulipo_to: good
(21:11:46) CorNouws: No discussion - I asked twice which should be enough ;-)
(21:11:46) oulipo_to: other update on yr side?
(21:11:59) oulipo_to: it is not :-)
(21:12:06) oulipo_to: as to my side:
(21:12:18) CorNouws: I can pick up Juergers suggestion and then start naggin at peoepl since vacantions are over ...
(21:12:28) oulipo_to: please do
(21:12:29) sophi: I has already said that the after the contest should be considered, on the list if I remember well
(21:12:29) oulipo_to: Seneca did a semester of OOo teaching last year
(21:13:04) CorNouws: sophi: OK, I'l look for that and mail if I can't find!
(21:13:05) oulipo_to: (I do think we need to draw in developer lists, btw, and that means dev@ and others)
(21:13:15) oulipo_to: Seneca had few students
(21:13:21) oulipo_to: we do owe them money for their efforts
(21:13:25) sophi: CorNouws: I should be able to send it again :)
(21:13:48) CorNouws: Preparations are here, BTW http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Marketing/OOoInternship
(21:13:53) oulipo_to: the problem is that the instructor is good and committed to OOo but he has not been able to make good contact with the relevant people (project leads) on OOo
(21:14:18) oulipo_to: as well, I think we need to re-examine our approach with them, Seneca, and build the developer base there, first
(21:14:18) CorNouws: sophi: I guess it must be from 22-6-2009 13:39
(21:14:27) ***mhu somehow remembers an email asking for senecas money (received during my vacation), will look that up ...
(21:14:34) oulipo_to: thsnks
(21:14:40) oulipo_to: indeed, I mailed at least once or twice
(21:14:41) sophi: CorNouws: may be, you look faster than me :)
(21:15:14) oulipo_to: what I would like then to do is re-evaluate the seneca relationship for next year (January +) and see if we can actually get our developers to help out.
(21:15:21) oulipo_to: their teaching model is classroom, not mentoring
(21:16:08) CorNouws: About Seneca: does our Education project has contact with them?
(21:18:45) oulipo_to: yes.
(21:18:46) oulipo_to: eric does
(21:18:54) oulipo_to: and he is not the instructor
(21:19:18) oulipo_to: the instructor needs to work with the developer community to establish the same sort of relationship as mozilla has with seneca
(21:19:43) CorNouws: someone from Hamburg who does find that worth putting energy in?
(21:19:50) oulipo_to: there, the instructor, david humphreys, is now a developer at moz. and uses his skill to direct students
(21:19:55) oulipo_to: juergen :-)
(21:19:57) oulipo_to: and possibly Kay
(21:20:05) oulipo_to: I mean Kai
(21:20:09) oulipo_to: and others.
(21:20:23) oulipo_to: but there needs to be a model, as for now it is mostly volunteer
(21:20:44) oulipo_to: Sun is willing to help--I mean non-Hamburg sun--but to do development it is up to us
(21:21:03) CorNouws: 'a model', indeed, so someone has to lead
(21:21:09) oulipo_to: we--OOo--can pay for a visit by Fardad (the instructor) to Hamburg, say--but we need the ears of the developer team to be there
(21:21:15) oulipo_to: that means after the summer is over
(21:21:35) CorNouws: and the management must support it with time
(21:21:44) oulipo_to: i Had a good a discussion with frank hecker on this,; he's with mozilla
(21:21:51) oulipo_to: CorNouws; Yes.
(21:22:10) oulipo_to: and so I was hoping to fold it into the mentoring process, even though it is quite different
(21:23:09) CorNouws: and can we expect support (= time) where needed for the Internship project??
(21:23:11) oulipo_to: but if we can manage to standardize the two elements here, collaboration and content, then we can export this model to other sites and focus on mentoring instructors in development, where that development can be more or less elementary to intermediate
(21:23:22) oulipo_to: I would hop so
(21:23:32) oulipo_to: and would hope we can have this discussion with Hamburg developers
(21:23:41) oulipo_to: but I've received zero positive attention (or any attention)
(21:23:52) CorNouws: anyone else an idea if this is a realistic request, hope?
(21:23:53) oulipo_to: that only means, of course, that I must continue :-)
(21:25:06) oulipo_to: stefan? mhu?
(21:25:19) stx12: yes?
(21:25:40) ***mhu thinks it is the usual "few people must do so many things" syndrome ...
(21:25:43) CorNouws: some edocation task for the futore of the project, need attention (= time) from devs ...
(21:26:06) CorNouws: edocation task = education tasks
(21:26:39) CorNouws: mhu: I think so ... time to find a way out?
(21:26:42) mhu: yes, many things need the attention of our developers, and more often than not, their days are not long enough ...
(21:27:24) mhu: only to give them more time, needing management direction / attention
(21:27:28) CorNouws: mhu: I know how hard they work and how much still cannot be done, and how mucht they often regret
(21:28:14) CorNouws: but when we do not pay attention to the education of future developers / community ... that would be a pity
(21:28:49) oulipo_to: I agree. I thnk that education here is quite vital to the community's future, and complements working with enterprises and other companies
(21:28:57) mhu: ...that they would need to spend less time on other things; and that needs agreement from various stakeholders ...
(21:29:02) oulipo_to: as we now have very limited means of actually bringing partners up to speed
(21:29:43) CorNouws: OK, so when can we discuss that with the stakeholders?
(21:29:53) ***mhu is not saying it cannot be done, only that it needs direction to do so (and not other things)
(21:31:08) CorNouws: Looks to me that the importance of the issue is clear, looking at the agenda (Internship) so that we can continue to work on it at the mail list first?
(21:31:41) mhu: yes, importance is clear to me (at least)
(21:31:45) oulipo_to: we can bring it before the Hamburg team
(21:31:58) oulipo_to: I am away on holiday next week but upon return can do so
(21:32:03) oulipo_to: and meanwhile, notify them.
(21:32:23) CorNouws: mhu: can you start while Louis is on vacation ?
(21:33:21) oulipo_to: mhu: will send update to you and others
(21:33:47) oulipo_to: CorNouws; BTW, this is not the first or second or third time this issue and related have been brought before stakeholders
(21:34:10) oulipo_to: Redflag was and is interested but no longer; no revenue that is direct. Same with IBM, Canonical, Novell, etc.
(21:34:21) oulipo_to: education is a longterm investment
(21:34:51) oulipo_to: so, I would conclude by suggesting that it is in our--OOo's interest and financial responsibility, as well, to push this
(21:35:03) oulipo_to: but we need the time of the people to get it done
(21:35:08) oulipo_to: and that's that
(21:35:15) CorNouws: oulipo_to: Who is in the lead, the drivers seat?
(21:35:20) oulipo_to: me
(21:35:29) oulipo_to: Or, as they say in grammatically correct English: I.
(21:35:46) oulipo_to: (both are correct, of course; and me is indeed more correct given the context)
(21:35:57) oulipo_to: Folks, I have to leave for an appointment
(21:36:05) ***mhu has been away for a few minutes, to finish his dinner (while typing ); should the above question mean anything actionable ?
(21:36:22) oulipo_to: Cor or Stefan: would you be kind enough to continue with going thru the agena
(21:36:26) oulipo_to: agenda...
(21:36:29) oulipo_to: mhu: yes
(21:36:59) CorNouws: oulipo_to: Yes, I can do
(21:37:02) mhu: sorry, but I still dont see the actionable piece
(21:37:10) oulipo_to: AI: louis to send in another summary of education efforts to Michael's team and then ask you to see if you can help out with getting and galvanizing select team members to act as memtors to push this forward
(21:37:27) oulipo_to: the idea being the model is not tutoring but classroom
(21:37:49) mhu: aha, thanks (would not know how to take that over)
(21:37:56) CorNouws: oulipo_to: But not wrt Internship project, of course
(21:38:00) oulipo_to: your role is to work with the developers/project leads that seem interested and see if they can be persuaded to devote their precious time to this
(21:38:18) oulipo_to: a goal would also be to arrange a visit from instructor to hamburg, paid for by OOo, to learn more
(21:38:26) oulipo_to: CorNouws: yes
(21:38:29) oulipo_to: of course
(21:38:39) oulipo_to: but they are not entirely orthogonal
(21:38:45) oulipo_to: and I have to go
(21:39:02) CorNouws: oulipo_to: bye than and thanks for now ..
(21:39:05) oulipo_to: Cor, stx12: would eithef of you be able to continue chairng the meeting?
(21:39:06) oulipo_to: thanks
(21:39:16) CorNouws: oulipo_to: I can, OK, stx12?
(21:39:24) oulipo_to: thx
(21:39:25) oulipo_to: ttyl
(21:40:14) ***mhu would like to leave in about 5 minutes also, as usual ... I simply dont have the entire evening to chat with you ... even if I would like to :-)
(21:40:28) oulipo_to is weggegaan (quit: "The computer fell asleep").
(21:40:31) stx12: CorNouws: fin ewith me
(21:41:05) CorNouws: mhu: OK see how far we come and which we skip
(21:41:09) sophi: mhu: my stomach would agree with you :)
(21:41:11) CorNouws: AI 5: L10n infrastructure
(21:41:18) CorNouws: is in progress, see list
(21:41:28) CorNouws: AI 6, OpenOffice.org Certification
(21:41:36) CorNouws: we wait for Pavel to vote ...
(21:41:50) CorNouws: all others agree
(21:41:55) CorNouws: (Do our rules say something about not voting by cc members who are not available?)
(21:42:06) Thalion72: why wait? .. set a deadline
(21:42:18) CorNouws: Or ask his deputy..
(21:42:21) mhu: sophi: :-)
(21:42:36) mhu: CorNouws: okay thanks
(21:43:09) CorNouws: I saw a + 1 from Sophie on 12-8-2009 12:00
(21:43:20) CorNouws: OK, next week we 'll finish this
(21:43:46) CorNouws: AI 7 and 8 - need Louis for that - and not urgent ...
(21:43:51) CorNouws: so AI 9
(21:44:02) CorNouws: Schedule for next meetings - done, AFAIAC
(21:44:13) CorNouws: Any remarks questions on this?
(21:44:39) mhu: that is, we definitely plan for a f2f meeting at the conference, right ?
(21:45:21) stx12: good question; can we do a quicl poll who is planning to go to orvieto?
(21:45:25) CorNouws: As far as CC members are there: it would be great, IMO
(21:45:27) mhu: ...i.e. our usual "community day" meeting, plus maybe again some panel, or so ?
(21:45:49) ***stx12 plans to be there
(21:45:59) ***CorNouws doubts
(21:46:15) mhu: shouldn't we plan for a "regular" meeting then, expecting attendance ?
(21:46:25) ***sophi plan to be there too, but may be no more CC member
(21:46:29) ***mhu plans to be there as well
(21:46:46) CorNouws: mhu: OK for me..
(21:48:17) ***mhu thinks, stx12's "go to orvieto" may need to be taken verbatim; anyone knowing how to best go there ?
(21:49:10) Thalion72: go by plain to rome and then by train
(21:49:12) ***sophi would say plane+train
(21:50:01) mhu: yes, but looks like it would take ages ...
(21:50:10) Thalion72: a colleague was there "by accident" thre weks ago .. approx 1hr by train (<10 EUR) from Rome to Orvieto
(21:50:23) Thalion72: Hamburg - Rome? Ages?
(21:50:31) _Nesshof_1: i need to leave, a thunderstorm is coming and i must need to help to get the hay into the barn
(21:50:35) mhu: only that there is no direct flight to rome from hamburg ...
(21:50:36) sophi: mhu: no, trains are every 30mn from what I remember
(21:50:37) Thalion72: should at least be lesst time than traveling to Beijing
(21:50:53) sophi: Thalion72: +1 :)
(21:51:06) mhu: well, maybe not ... :-)
(21:51:49) CorNouws: _Nesshof_1: mhu: before leaving: any new on taxes? (Agenda 4.3) ?
(21:51:53) stx12: di dsomeone officially close the meeting?
(21:51:57) mhu: ...but that is another story; I am fine the meeting schedule ..
(21:52:21) CorNouws: stx12: I did not see that ;-)
(21:52:33) mhu: ...and, no, Martin and I are still waiting for responses from both tax authorities and out tax advisor
(21:52:38) ***stx12 is sorry for the interruption
(21:52:43) sophi: mhu: are you aware of SPI last earmark for OOo?
(21:53:11) mhu: sophi: what do mean with "SPI last earmark" ?
(21:53:51) sophi: mhu: they published a budget yesterday of the before about the money we have by them
(21:53:52) ***mhu gets notification of donations to SPI forwarded by Louis
(21:54:21) stx12: sophi: published means to the public or to you?
(21:54:24) mhu: aha, that is, we now have a summary of the money ?
(21:54:34) CorNouws: sophi: and ??
(21:54:51) sophi: mhu: on the list, but I can send you the link, because there is some taxes
(21:55:14) CorNouws: OK, thanks sophi
(21:55:16) CorNouws: mhu: _Nesshof_1: do you have another 3 minutes
(21:55:16) CorNouws: Just for the last fast agenda items
(21:55:31) mhu: yes, please send it (maybe to the list, that is fine)
(21:55:55) ***mhu thinks Martin has left for urgent thunderstorm business
(21:56:09) mhu: but yes, I am still here ...
(21:56:21) CorNouws: OK then the last items
(21:56:21) CorNouws: Agenda #3: OOoCon 2009 - hoped John could tell, so ask him by mail
(21:57:23) CorNouws: OK for that?
(21:57:23) CorNouws: Then ..
(21:57:47) CorNouws: Agenda #4.1 Buget, Idea/request for Dev-budget
(21:57:47) CorNouws: Discussion is on the mail and looks positive and promising to me
(21:58:15) CorNouws: Any remarks? If not now, pls on the list.
(21:58:15) mhu: yes, that discussion is for the list, I think
(21:58:26) CorNouws: that was fast ;-)
(21:59:05) CorNouws: 4.2 and 4.3 are clear also.
(21:59:05) CorNouws: So if no one else has a topic ...
(21:59:39) ***mhu has no more for today
(22:00:14) CorNouws: OK, than I would like to close the meeting.
(22:00:14) CorNouws: (and I suggest to do the AI's and so as I did before)
(22:01:03) mhu: okay, then have a nice evening everybody ...