Community Council Log 20090528

IRC Log of Community Council Meeting 2009-05-28

Attendees

• Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof_)
• Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
• André Schnabel (Thalion72)
• Pavel Janik (paveljanik)
• Louis Suárez-Potts (louis_to)
• Stefan Taxhet (stx12)
• Sophie Gautier
• John McCreesh

• Absent: Matthias Huetsch (mhu)

[14:34:11] louis_to shall we start?
[14:34:11] louis_to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda
[14:34:15] louis_to that's the link for agenda
[14:37:09] louis_to ping?
[14:37:17] jpmcc pong
[14:37:28] _Nesshof_ no more timeout
[14:37:28] louis_to hi john; glad you could make it
[14:37:36] stx12 hi all
[14:37:43] louis_to hi stx12
[14:37:46] CorNouws Agenda looks OK to me ;-)
[14:37:52] louis_to lol
[14:38:21] CorNouws wow: also for the rest of us?
[14:38:31] CorNouws wow = with other words ;-)
[14:38:37] louis_to brb
[14:38:37] sophi CorNouws: ok for me
[14:38:40] Thalion72 yes ... I would have commented, if soemthing was not ok ;)
[14:39:42] CorNouws We're running out of time. I popose to start with #2
[14:40:02] Thalion72 yes ..please
[14:40:49] louis_to Trademark?
[14:40:54] louis_to or action items?
[14:41:00] Thalion72 action Items
[14:41:13] louis_to okay, let's start; meeting has commenced
[14:41:26] louis_to Action items - from previous meeting(s)
[14:41:26] louis_to 	1.	Budget
[14:41:26] louis_to 	1.	Matthias, André and Cor agreed on a meeting regarding budget issues for next monday.
[14:41:43] CorNouws Yes, I have a report
[14:41:43] louis_to that's 2.1, budget...
[14:42:02] louis_to CorNouws: and? 
[14:42:14] CorNouws About the first years
[14:42:30] CorNouws In the first years, though there were spendings, there was no real focus on budget and accounting, nor on promoting the spending for projects. 
[14:42:30] CorNouws Also especially in the last few years more is donated.
[14:42:47] CorNouws From this first period roughly some 400 K will be left. But this is uncertain, since still taxes have to be paid.
[14:42:47] CorNouws Also, a significant amount of the money in the accounts is earmarked
[14:43:05] CorNouws This has to be fully clear first. 
[14:43:12] CorNouws And also we have a better idea on how we can promote the spending - at least that is what we tried last year
[14:43:23] CorNouws Then the idea is to come up with is more structured budget planning for the next years.
[14:44:01] CorNouws That is more or less what I learned of the meeting. 
[14:44:12] CorNouws André,  OK?
[14:44:31] _Nesshof_ what should the "more structured" look like ?
[14:45:12] CorNouws _Nesshof_: With knowledge about what we more or less can expect and
[14:45:29] CorNouws (as income) and what people might ask
[14:45:30] Thalion72 to me yes: myshort summary: TeamOOo is still waiting for answer form the tax office .. until this has been received, the current budget is the "best and most solid estimation"  we have
[14:46:15] stx12 ... and we can continue to work with...
[14:46:18] louis_to is there any idea when the tax office will act?
[14:46:39] CorNouws louis_to: as soon as they have info // ;-)
[14:46:46] paveljanik I have to leave now for an hour or so, sorry
[14:46:50] _Nesshof_ our tax attorney has sent the files to the tax office, ... still waiting for reaction
[14:46:54] louis_to bye...
[14:47:04] Thalion72 bye pavel
[14:47:04] stx12 bye pavel
[14:47:37] _Nesshof_ but independently from that, we're still seem not be able to spend the money we approved for this year 
[14:47:38] louis_to CorNouws, others; we can estimate budget holding for the coming, actual year
[14:47:38] CorNouws _Nesshof_: Ah, good. you might consider to ping them
[14:47:54] CorNouws Yes, same as past is Matthias idea
[14:47:55] louis_to _Nesshof_: we could spend more easily enough
[14:47:59] CorNouws and I support that
[14:48:31] louis_to for instance, there are trips I've declined b/c the belief that my request qould be declined; and marketing could be allocated more funds altogether
[14:48:41] CorNouws So, AFAIAC, everything is clear for this moment
[14:48:47] stx12 it doesn't seem to be easy - at least that's my experienc efrom last year
[14:49:37] louis_to  not easy to spend money?
[14:49:40] Thalion72 louis_to: start to spend your budget ... 
[14:49:42] louis_to I disagree
[14:49:43] CorNouws louis_to: that is why we agreed few months agoo that we should get an estimate of possible requests / spendings ..
[14:49:53] louis_to Thalion72: I am already, but there are some areas that are in the gray zone
[14:49:56] louis_to eg, travel
[14:50:16] Thalion72 louis_to: as budget holder it is up to *you* what to spend the money for
[14:50:18] louis_to I know, and the community has not really responded at all. last time Thalion72 suggested just do it
[14:50:34] louis_to Thalion72: there are still guidelines
[14:50:48] louis_to which I llike to respect
[14:50:49] Thalion72 sorry, but I did notagree on the bdget procedures, just to have the budeget holder now asking the councile (instead of direct requests)
[14:51:02] louis_to okay, anyway, it's a side issue.
[14:51:04] stx12 louis_to: just discuss with your advisors and you'll get the feedback whether gray is white or black
[14:51:13] louis_to the point is to come up with ... as stx12 suggests
[14:51:37] louis_to so, back to CorNouws' report
[14:52:37] CorNouws That is finished.
[14:52:42] Thalion72 I think, the report is complete
[14:52:44] louis_to okay, thanks
[14:52:58] louis_to #2.2: me
[14:53:18] louis_to I pinged the community, alexandro came up with ideas, but that was it
[14:53:29] louis_to I'll go ahead with proposal and post it to a wiki
[14:53:46] louis_to and make strong suggestions as to participation but it's up to the developer/contributor, of course.
[14:53:52] CorNouws did you ask the marcon list?
[14:53:52] louis_to so, a work in progress
[14:53:59] louis_to No. 
[14:54:01] louis_to thanks for hint
[14:54:15] CorNouws Yes, e see spendings in Europe
[14:54:22] louis_to many on marcon are project leads of nlc and on project leads
[14:54:26] CorNouws which is fine, but only small part of the world
[14:54:37] *** AN Unknown command
[14:54:44] louis_to an important part :-)
[14:55:10] CorNouws and was there no response on dev@nlc?
[14:55:13] louis_to AI: louis use marcon list and post to wiki list of events selected for importance to the community and to OOo's goals
[14:55:39] louis_to I don't think I used nlc, this time--done it before and got nothing really--just project leads and direct queries
[14:56:04] louis_to I think I will get replies once I say, "this is the list" agree or disagree and add if you want
[14:56:14] louis_to Shall we move on to 2.2?
[14:56:55] Thalion72 yes
[14:57:37] CorNouws pls
[14:57:38] louis_to 2.2.1: update after renewed discussion
[14:57:52] louis_to There is no designated updater..
[14:57:59] louis_to sophie? andre? stefan?
[14:58:13] Thalion72 hmm .. discussion has been renewed (somehow)
[14:58:27] louis_to Thalion72: how so?
[14:59:04] Thalion72 Bernhard and I posted new drafts for a policy .. but we got not that much comments
[14:59:09] * _Nesshof_ has not yet fully understood the direction of the renewal, need some more days to dive into discussion again
[14:59:34] CorNouws I read the new drafts, and like them
[14:59:37] louis_to Can we put a closure date on the discussions?
[14:59:55] Thalion72 _Nesshof_: the renewal ismostly about "Make it short, liberate"
[14:59:57] * louis_to note that every debate must have closure; called cloture
[15:00:36] stx12 that makes only sense if there is an actionable outcome...
[15:00:42] CorNouws Thalion72: one thing I would like - if possible ..
[15:00:43] Thalion72 louis_to: we can do so ...the newdrafts are supposed to be very short but refere to soe FAQ
[15:01:02] louis_to then let's
[15:01:06] Thalion72 so in theroy we can start witha short policy and enhance the FAQ
[15:01:27] louis_to precisely
[15:01:33] * louis_to that's what I've wanted....
[15:01:35] Thalion72 CorNouws: what is the thing?
[15:02:04] CorNouws a list of disputes that have been addressed by the new drafts, so what problems have been solved by the new drafts
[15:02:21] CorNouws but maybe that question is superfluous
[15:02:38] CorNouws since people will respond in the next round of discussion?
[15:02:42] louis_to CorNouws: well, having a change record is useful
[15:02:50] Thalion72 uhh .. I don'T think, that the new drafst *solve* the previous disputes .. they more or less try to get around it
[15:02:57] louis_to but inevitably there will still be repeition
[15:03:12] louis_to and "solving" is going to be continual negotiation
[15:03:17] Thalion72 an I think, only Bernhard read all the disputes (I mustconfess I didn't)
[15:03:30] CorNouws Thalion72: getting around also is a sort of solving, IMHO
[15:03:41] sophi Thalion72: I did also :)
[15:04:35] Thalion72 CorNouws: to me, the main thing is, that almostall of the disputes came up, when we put restrictions on the *software* 
[15:05:06] Thalion72 but nobody could exactly tell for what reason we like to put restrictions on the software
[15:05:23] CorNouws OK ...
[15:05:26] CorNouws So what we can propose now:
[15:05:26] CorNouws That all cc members have a week to respond, if they like
[15:05:26] CorNouws and that then the poposal is brought to discuss@  
[15:05:26] CorNouws ???
[15:05:27] Thalion72 (Only reason was named by Charles)
[15:05:34] louis_to CorNouws: I would agree
[15:05:47] louis_to that we have that deadline, though a week is rather harsh
[15:06:01] louis_to and would suggest rather mid-June
[15:06:01] CorNouws Thalion72: And that was not his reason, but one he guessed others might have, IIRC?
[15:06:06] Thalion72 CorNouws: I'm fine with this .. I'd like o ping REne E. and Caolan for comments
[15:06:29] CorNouws louis_to: a week short? It's only one A4
[15:06:35] Thalion72 :)
[15:06:40] CorNouws and we work on it already half a year or so
[15:06:56] CorNouws And the longer, the less responsive some become
[15:07:11] CorNouws and the cc-coordinators task must not be too heavy ;-)
[15:07:28] Thalion72 and we would go to discuss@ anyway .. so we need to agree to the genaral idea only atm
[15:08:13] CorNouws Only reason to do longer than a week - maybe - if someone form the cc is on vacation ??
[15:08:29] louis_to CorNouws: precisely
[15:08:36] louis_to Matthias is on holiday
[15:08:36] jpmcc who are we missing tonight?
[15:08:43] louis_to mhu
[15:08:58] CorNouws returning when?
[15:09:13] louis_to I cannot recall
[15:09:16] stx12 iirc in 3 weeks
[15:09:52] Thalion72 would be good to have a deputy ;)
[15:10:22] CorNouws a bit  long, afaiac ;-) also cause Matthias can join discuss@, which he would not mind
[15:10:46] louis_to okay; shall we move ahead and declare then to finalize in 2 weeks' time? 
[15:11:05] louis_to that misses MHU, but I fear others will head off to holiday land soon
[15:11:09] louis_to summer is nearly here....
[15:11:15] Thalion72 likely
[15:11:15] CorNouws yip
[15:11:19] jpmcc +1
[15:11:25] louis_to then let's set the deadline for 2 weeks hence
[15:11:44] louis_to that''s 11 June
[15:11:50] Thalion72 ok ... 
[15:12:00] louis_to by which time the available CC members must have read and commented on the proposal(s)
[15:12:29] louis_to any objections?
[15:12:37] jpmcc No
[15:12:39] CorNouws no
[15:12:49] Thalion72 no objections
[15:13:02] louis_to AI to all here, to comment on trademark proposals by 11 June
[15:13:13] louis_to let's move on to 2.3.1: elections
[15:13:17] louis_to status update?
[15:13:44] stx12 i don't think we should leave mhu (and pavel?) out of the game. but who is going to send the proposal to cc members? are all involved in the tm discussion?
[15:13:45] Thalion72 Ineed to excuse for  the delay :(
[15:14:08] louis_to stx12: all are subscribed
[15:14:15] louis_to and no, we ought not to leave them out
[15:14:45] louis_to but we are not deciding on the actual trademark policy here as much as urging all cc members to review the proposal with the aim of finalizing
[15:14:57] Thalion72 on elections:I've been almost offline for the lasttwo weeks. SO I didnotprepare andsend the announcement
[15:14:59] louis_to but finalization probably won't occur for at least a week after reading of the text
[15:15:14] stx12 louis_to: which is fine... 
[15:15:57] louis_to Thalion72: would you want John or me to help with the announcement?
[15:16:09] louis_to (sorry john; other professional speaker of the language)
[15:16:35] Thalion72 louis_to: yes, would be good. I'm able to work on this on Saturday
[15:16:57] Thalion72 so we should be able to send the annoucement on Monday or Tuesday
[15:16:59] louis_to please send it to me or to the list
[15:17:03] louis_to Yes.
[15:17:09] Thalion72 ok .. I'll send on Saturday
[15:17:21] louis_to thanks
[15:17:47] louis_to AI: Thalion72 to send to louis (and jpmcc) proposal for elections announcement for editing, writing, etc.
[15:17:51] louis_to this Saturday
[15:18:00] louis_to Shall we move on to 2.4?
[15:18:00] Thalion72 yes :)
[15:18:12] Thalion72 +1
[15:18:13] louis_to 2.4.1: Internship: update?
[15:19:02] CorNouws yes
[15:19:26] CorNouws Stefan, I, mba, jsc, Florian had some contact via mail
[15:19:31] stx12 a really update - we just revived the rough ruleset
[15:19:42] stx12 a really short update - we just revived the rough ruleset
[15:19:43] louis_to rough ruleset from?
[15:19:57] louis_to gsoc? or community innovation program?
[15:19:59] stx12 ... for OOo intership 
[15:20:06] louis_to okay.
[15:20:13] louis_to stx12: are you working with education program at all?
[15:20:20] louis_to ... or they with you?
[15:20:30] stx12 not yet
[15:20:34] louis_to okay
[15:20:45] CorNouws good to invite them for mentorships, IMO
[15:21:05] * louis_to thinks they need mentors to pick up the project
[15:21:11] stx12 it's planned to involve pleads and mentoring@ooo 
[15:21:43] * louis_to suggests that the education project be utilzed as a reource, if possible, to coordinate educational activity
[15:21:46] _Nesshof_ stx12: what is the intended time frame for that ?
[15:21:48] stx12 then then let me ask for feedback from budget holder here: 
[15:21:49] louis_to but this is not quite in that domain
[15:22:17] stx12 what are you going to contribute? how muich would you give a paricipant for sucess? 
[15:22:32] louis_to can we match google?
[15:22:58] stx12 GSoC gives 4500 USD to students plus 500 to the organization per slot
[15:23:22] CorNouws So yes, we can, only have to set alimit to the # of participants
[15:23:37] louis_to right
[15:23:46] louis_to then I'd say let's at least match them :-)
[15:23:48] stx12 to 3. 5. 10?
[15:23:57] louis_to and set a limit to 5 this time around
[15:24:18] louis_to with a program/contest to get more money and mentors for more next year
[15:24:21] CorNouws 5 K or 5 participants
[15:24:30] louis_to 5K for 5 each
[15:24:38] louis_to total then 25K 
[15:24:50] stx12 to match we need only 4500; from which budgets are the 5*4500 URSD coming? 
[15:24:51] CorNouws Then I am for more
[15:25:09] louis_to I can donate from my bucket
[15:25:16] _Nesshof_ and mine
[15:25:23] louis_to but not all, of course
[15:25:25] stx12 other's can to ;-)
[15:25:39] * stx12 is waiting for concrete numbers
[15:25:52] louis_to Shall we discuss the division onl list?
[15:25:52] louis_to I need to find out precisley how much I can donate
[15:26:03] louis_to adn I imagine _Nesshof_ must, too
[15:26:21] louis_to and you can put a deadline on this, with issue tracker, even :-)
[15:26:29] stx12 so, we are committed to come up with 30K EUR, ok?
[15:26:38] louis_to +1
[15:26:47] _Nesshof_ stx12: I thought 25k ?
[15:26:49] CorNouws We have some fine general reserves 
[15:26:49] CorNouws why not add an extra 15 K out of there?
[15:27:02] stx12 _Nesshof_: and cor said "more"
[15:27:30] * _Nesshof_ is fine with 30k, will offer 10k
[15:27:30] stx12 _Nesshof_: you don't have to spend more than 20K 
[15:27:31] louis_to CorNouws I'd say let's hold off as we have other events, etc. related to something  like this
[15:27:45] louis_to eg, travel for the winners to OOoCon
[15:27:46] _Nesshof_ stx12: where can the ruleset reviewed ?
[15:28:00] CorNouws I don't  know of other events
[15:28:06] CorNouws only rumors
[15:28:11] CorNouws this is action
[15:28:16] CorNouws and development
[15:28:21] CorNouws good to spend on, IMO
[15:28:22] louis_to I don't like foreclosing opotions
[15:28:34] louis_to the amount is already quite generous, don't you think?
[15:28:41] louis_to I agree it's good to spend
[15:28:47] louis_to but I prefer to start prudently
[15:28:48] CorNouws also: we under-spend dramatically last year
[15:28:57] louis_to CorNouws: I know
[15:29:06] stx12 louis_to: which? the total or the amount for each slot?
[15:29:07] louis_to and dislike having money in the pocket
[15:29:13] CorNouws so what if we get 8 good applications?
[15:29:17] louis_to amount/each
[15:29:23] louis_to 5k is more than google
[15:29:30] CorNouws turn of 3 ceause lacj of money - which we do not have - ??
[15:29:43] louis_to CorNouws: we can add more, if we have mentors; but the per student I think should be at 5K
[15:29:59] CorNouws louis_to: yes, of course
[15:30:02] louis_to no: to clarify> I think we should limit payment to students to 5K
[15:30:07] CorNouws I am talking about the total budget
[15:30:10] louis_to and if there are lots of great students and we have mentors, we can add
[15:30:12] louis_to I wasn
[15:30:14] CorNouws thius the total # of participants
[15:30:17] louis_to wasn't
[15:30:36] louis_to let's start at 5; if we have both students and mentors, we can add, adn the budget will be there for us
[15:30:41] CorNouws louis_to: :-)
[15:30:42] louis_to yes?
[15:31:02] stx12 thanks; at least we have a feeling for the range we can work with
[15:31:11] CorNouws what is the total budget suggested, so the # of participants we can have?
[15:31:57] louis_to I think we can estimate by looking at mentors available?
[15:32:41] CorNouws louis_to: I don't understand that logic... for how many participants is a mentor good ?
[15:34:14] stx12 1 menttor to 1 participant
[15:34:18] CorNouws So, when we come up with 15 mentors, we make free 75 K ?
[15:34:33] * CorNouws expeted that answer ;-)
[15:35:05] louis_to :-)
[15:35:13] louis_to I WISH we could have that many
[15:35:26] louis_to heck, I'd donate money to Team OOo again, if we could
[15:35:45] stx12 but lt's not planned to pay mentors 
[15:35:46] louis_to but it's very hard getting >5
[15:36:01] louis_to no, of course not; but mentors are scarce
[15:36:32] * louis_to does not mean to bribe them. rather money goes to student only
[15:36:58] louis_to so, are we close to coming to a kind of agreement on the proposal?
[15:37:15] louis_to regarding funding and some limits, as well as action item for stx12--?
[15:37:20] CorNouws Sort of, but still
[15:37:20] CorNouws So if we have three mentors, you expect me to spend a lot of time in promoting and organizing for 3 participants?
[15:37:20] CorNouws And do you want to do that? NOt so efficient, I think
[15:37:38] CorNouws I like ambitions:
[15:37:47] louis_to CorNouws: this is but one element. We also have education program, which has a different ambition
[15:38:01] louis_to the point of this one is efficacy
[15:38:04] CorNouws sya: we ant to spent xxx, so that we can help xxx participants
[15:38:28] CorNouws (louis_to: Edication is not ripe, mature, IMO)
[15:38:29] louis_to and the mentor/student relationship almost guarantees that the student will participate actively in the project after the relationship has ended
[15:38:48] louis_to CorNouws: nope, it is not. but iwe can talk more on this later. it is growing very fast
[15:40:02] CorNouws I do not understand that education has  to do financially with our Internship program
[15:40:14] louis_to proposal: That stx12 estimate number of mentors and thus number of students, and thus $, pegging each student at 5K with an upper limit of total expenditure at 35k, unless extraordinary circumstances warrant; and that monies come from Louis's budent, Martin's and ...?
[15:40:16] CorNouws but hey, we can finish financial detaisl next two weeks ...
[15:40:38] louis_to CorNouws: it doesn't ; that's why I said it is approaching this with a different ambition
[15:40:43] stx12 i will propose 7 slot a 4K EUR
[15:40:57] louis_to 4K euro is a lot of USD
[15:41:00] louis_to :-)
[15:41:05] louis_to and even more CAD
[15:41:08] * stx12 will do so next meeting ;-)
[15:41:12] louis_to (roughly 1:1.77)
[15:41:20] louis_to thanks
[15:41:49] louis_to AI: Stefan to suggest the budget for the internship program as suggested by the rproposal
[15:41:53] CorNouws as extra budget I suggest  the genreral reserves
[15:42:00] CorNouws for the rest for now ... +1
[15:42:59] louis_to Any objections to the proposal modulo stx12's addendum of 4K?
[15:43:10] jpmcc No
[15:43:11] Thalion72 no objections
[15:43:15] sophi no
[15:43:44] louis_to nor from me
[15:43:51] louis_to if no objections, let's move on
[15:44:13] louis_to 2.5: L10n infrastructure
[15:44:23] louis_to Stefan, André, Cor: continue on http://l10n.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=10839
[15:44:34] louis_to Do we have updates?
[15:44:36] stx12 no update - at least from me
[15:44:41] Thalion72 no update
[15:44:43] CorNouws Three owners :-)
[15:44:47] louis_to :--)
[15:44:56] louis_to then let's move on
[15:45:00] louis_to 2.6:
[15:45:06] louis_to 2.6.1, I mean
[15:45:14] louis_to Cor: add some content, then ping Louis to mail project leads
[15:45:15] CorNouws OK
[15:45:26] CorNouws added content today
[15:45:27] louis_to I'm happy to work with pleads...
[15:45:28] louis_to ah
[15:45:32] louis_to so, ping me :-_
[15:45:53] CorNouws OK, but first I want to sleep a night or two over the current state
[15:45:57] louis_to Update to 2.6.1: CorNouws added content and must now ping louis to engage the preoject leads
[15:46:02] louis_to no problem
[15:46:05] CorNouws if you understand what I mean
[15:46:09] CorNouws OK you do
[15:46:14] louis_to yes, of course
[15:46:24] louis_to moving on...
[15:46:46] louis_to 2.7.: proposal council coordinator
[15:46:46] louis_to 	1.	Cor: ask votes of members not present at the meeting
[15:46:53] louis_to update?
[15:47:00] CorNouws We only miss a vote from pavel on the latest post
[15:47:09] CorNouws but he did respond to aprevious one
[15:47:13] CorNouws positively
[15:47:20] CorNouws is he already returned here?
[15:47:27] louis_to negative
[15:47:37] louis_to oh, sorry, I missed him
[15:47:52] louis_to his alias is here, but is he?
[15:48:05] CorNouws " <AUTO-REPLY> :  I'm busy"
[15:48:12] louis_to be that as it may, if he shows up before end of this meeting, he can vote on the issue
[15:48:15] CorNouws which does not surprise me ;-)
[15:48:25] louis_to I thus suggest we move on to 3.0: certification
[15:48:30] CorNouws OK
[15:48:38] louis_to OpenOffice.org Certification
[15:48:38] louis_to 	1.	Review the petition for endorsement.
[15:48:48] louis_to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education/Certification/Petition
[15:48:58] louis_to have all present reviewed it already?
[15:49:07] Thalion72 yes
[15:49:14] louis_to .. and do you all find it a llittle familliar?
[15:49:22] louis_to take your mind back to April 2007
[15:49:54] * stx12 needs help
[15:49:57] louis_to when I submitted something very simillar, but with more reliance on and engagement with vendors, to the CC offlist
[15:50:55] louis_to it's otherwise essentially the same: to endorse the establishment of a body that would ultimately certify companies and others in the provisioning of support-related material 
[15:50:56] louis_to for OOO
[15:51:09] Thalion72 louis_to: I remember ..andI still have the same objections ;)
[15:51:37] * stx12 needs help again - from Thalion72
[15:51:38] louis_to others? I can post my original mail to the list and also subsequent exchange I had with Evan L. regarding the proposal
[15:52:01] CorNouws Thalion72: yes, what is your idea on this?
[15:53:04] Thalion72 well ..my main objection was how all the certification stuff should be paid.
[15:53:39] CorNouws and mine is: how it should all be organized, which to some extend is the same
[15:53:55] CorNouws and can be started with a solid plan?
[15:54:01] Thalion72 the difference I see, is that the current petition does *not* request funding from the project
[15:54:29] CorNouws Indeed, that is OK
[15:54:29] CorNouws And I see the same great potential as the 2007 poposal
[15:54:29] CorNouws But ATM, it is not mature enough, IMHO, to be endorsed as such
[15:54:29] CorNouws and carry the OOo flag for the outer world
[15:54:47] CorNouws It can become, I hope it will
[15:55:35] Thalion72 CorNouws: at the other hand it is a Chicken-Egg-Problem .. you can hardly go on if you donotget the "blessing" of OOo
[15:55:41] jpmcc There's probably a minimum amount of funding they need to secxure to get the thing off the ground...
[15:56:04] jpmcc ...if they can secure that, then they should get our ok.
[15:56:06] Thalion72 but you will only get blessed if you first get something further 
[15:56:18] CorNouws Thalion72: jpmcc: so that is an opening for a good direction, where we can help?
[15:56:49] jpmcc They say they have some sponsorship already?
[15:57:01] CorNouws jpmcc: Not precise
[15:57:08] Thalion72 CorNouws: I tnd to agree (I just read the Petition when our meeting started)
[15:57:09] louis_to I would suggest that the proposal be clarified and made more precise 
[15:57:35] CorNouws louis_to: that is waht I asked many days ...
[15:57:41] Thalion72 louis_to: tome, the proposal itselfseems to be quite clear
[15:57:45] jpmcc They need to show they can raise enough to set up the company, have a bank account, etc...
[15:57:48] * louis_to notes that great minds tihink alike
[15:57:54] CorNouws jpmcc:  when the cc endorses the idea, some government body is willing to pay
[15:58:31] louis_to CorNouws: we've already, back in 2007, endorsed in principle a version of this idea, minus fudning
[15:58:32] jpmcc OK, so let's see a draft business plan (sorry if I sound like a bank employee ;-)
[15:58:49] louis_to jpmcc: that is what is lacking, to me; the business plan
[15:59:04] louis_to because this is a business we are talking about
[15:59:33] jpmcc OK, let's go back with a positive response, but a challenge to come up with a business plan.
[15:59:35] louis_to in 2007 Evan was calling it Open Source Desktop Network, and it was more ambitious by a lot than now
[15:59:35] Thalion72 hmmm ... what would we like to see in the business plan?
[15:59:51] Thalion72 louis_to: no it was not (not to me)
[16:00:00] louis_to ideally details of sponsorship, funding
[16:00:04] CorNouws So we can ask Alexandro, Evan to make a business plan?
[16:00:15] louis_to CorNouws: yes
[16:00:36] CorNouws a business plan holds a shedule, income, spendings, estimated results (students, certificates, partners, ..
[16:00:37] Thalion72 the current petition claims to have a syllabus and most of the materials ready ..that was missing in 2007 - and afair thera was no clear plan how to get this
[16:00:41] louis_to Thalion72: Evan nuanced and made more precise the focus of the ambition
[16:00:45] jpmcc CorNouws: but let's be friendly
[16:00:55] CorNouws Thalion72: that claim is a bit overdone, IMnshO
[16:01:13] CorNouws jpmcc: Yes, we can ask for that plan, and help funding it?
[16:01:20] louis_to jpmcc: agreed. I think the idea has merit--obviously--but I thnk that there are a couple of risks
[16:01:44] louis_to 1 it lacks the details a business plan would offer, and I would  like to  understand the nature of the syllabus, etc., the collateral
[16:01:49] Thalion72 ok .. ask for the plan (and I'd like to know, where we are at the moment - means, what materials are already available)
[16:02:13] sophi louis_to: all is in the project, on issue or wiki
[16:02:16] louis_to 2. I'm uncertain how it will be sustained (part of the business plan) and how its governance will be established-
[16:02:32] CorNouws OK, I had quite some contact with Alexandro on this
[16:02:33] louis_to that is, who makes the decisions, ultimately? the company people? CC? 
[16:02:37] louis_to that seems missing to me.
[16:02:39] sophi louis_to: governance team is on the wiki page
[16:02:43] CorNouws Shall I make contact and ask for 
[16:02:52] CorNouws ...
[16:02:57] Thalion72 CorNouws: yes, please 
[16:03:05] CorNouws 1. materials
[16:03:14] CorNouws 2. if they can make a business plan
[16:03:29] * louis_to guess evan's got one ready; he did last time :-)
[16:03:31] CorNouws 3. if it helps, if we give little support ($) for that?
[16:03:37] sophi bye all
[16:03:43] * CorNouws interested to see it
[16:03:43] louis_to bye, sophi
[16:03:46] *** sophi has quit IRC ("Leaving.")
[16:03:48] Thalion72 bye sophi
[16:03:50] Thalion72 :(
[16:03:54] CorNouws bye sophie :-)
[16:04:42] louis_to If it helkps, I'd suggest 250 CAD for the plan. But I would also like to to see details of the biz plan related to governance too
[16:05:08] louis_to eg, say we disagree with the endorsements?
[16:05:11] CorNouws jpmcc: is this friendly enough, in your opinion?
[16:05:23] louis_to this company is representing OOo, after all
[16:05:27] CorNouws louis_to: no, just need more info first
[16:05:35] louis_to CorNouws: okay.
[16:05:47] * louis_to for context, sends off the old proposal
[16:06:02] * louis_to notes the google group is still there, though dormant
[16:06:38] Thalion72 ok .. 2 AI's?
[16:07:11] CorNouws Thalion72: 2?
[16:07:13] Thalion72 louis_to tosent the old plan just as reminder what we had already done
[16:07:16] louis_to done
[16:07:30] Thalion72 CorNouws: to ask for business plan and existing materials
[16:07:48] louis_to CC decision was made in Barrcelona, where Thalion72 argued very persuasively
[16:07:49] louis_to :-)
[16:08:16] louis_to AI: CorNouws to ask as stated above
[16:08:24] CorNouws 2. continued: and suggest 250 CAD for the plan (and include wishes mentioned here)
[16:09:47] Thalion72 fine with me
[16:10:03] CorNouws I think it is indeed important.
[16:10:03] CorNouws The idea, potential is great.
[16:10:03] CorNouws But needs good organizing skills etc etc
[16:10:03] CorNouws So presenting what the cc asks, is a first step to prove the potential of success !
[16:10:12] louis_to do we have any other interventions?
[16:10:51] louis_to if not, then let's move on...
[16:10:59] CorNouws yes pls
[16:11:05] louis_to 4.1: Proposal for handling incubator and NLC projects
[16:11:05] louis_to 	1.	formalise the practise to delegate confirmation of Incubator project to project_leads@ and for native language projects to leads of NLC.
[16:11:28] louis_to I can take this on
[16:11:41] louis_to stx12 had a fine notion last session
[16:11:43] CorNouws Yes, that was taken from the last meeting
[16:11:49] louis_to ie, formalise current practice
[16:11:53] louis_to indeed; thanks
[16:12:06] CorNouws shouldn't we just vote??
[16:12:22] louis_to sure, but the language will do?
[16:12:34] stx12 louis_to: hm, we took the burden of the fomalities from the pleads to the CC in 2003 and now we are putting it back? 
[16:12:48] louis_to no
[16:12:50] stx12 at least some sort of?
[16:12:56] louis_to as I understand it
[16:13:29] Thalion72 hmm .. didwe really took the burden?
[16:13:34] louis_to : to stipulate that the category leads of Incubator and NLC and other categories are delegated axiomatically by the CC to create and dsi-create projects in their categories
[16:13:45] louis_to that is the proposal I'd ask to vote on
[16:13:52] Thalion72 I know, the dicussion was brought up by my request at the last meeting
[16:14:21] louis_to amended : should an act be seen as counter to the bset interests of the Project by the CC, the CC reserves the right to act in the matter
[16:14:48] * Thalion72 abstains
[16:15:50] louis_to cimment?
[16:15:57] Thalion72 and others do not vote :)
[16:16:02] louis_to sigh
[16:16:10] louis_to basically, it's validating status quo
[16:16:20] CorNouws I vote +1 :-)
[16:16:27] louis_to while authorizing the CC directly to intervene as needed, per the new charter
[16:17:01] * louis_to falls asleep
[16:17:13] stx12 would the category leads delegate to all pleads or only those within their category? 
[16:17:28] CorNouws louis_to: othere were faster than you ;-)
[16:17:45] jpmcc louis_to: zzzzzzz
[16:17:47] * louis_to wife just called
[16:17:47] * _Nesshof_ runs out of battery
[16:17:57] louis_to stx12; how are pleads relevant?
[16:18:39] Thalion72 btw ... I abstain, as I cannot find our "old" ruls how to setup projects, and advance from incubator to accepted
[16:18:48] louis_to the issue is that if a project is deemed to be nonactive, and iff all former participatns declare it to be dead, then the incubator or NLC lead can kill it
[16:19:24] Thalion72 (ahh .. just found them)
[16:19:48] louis_to http://www.openoffice.org/about_us/protocols_proposing.html#settingup
[16:20:02] stx12 oh, i misunderstood the proposal. power is delegated *to* the category leads and not delegated *by* them
[16:20:06] louis_to yes.
[16:20:14] louis_to hence the term "category leads"
[16:20:16] louis_to sorry
[16:20:25] louis_to the final language would be a little better
[16:21:04] stx12 then it only needs a revised text for the just mentioned text.
[16:21:19] louis_to yes
[16:21:20] stx12 as you say it is best practise...
[16:21:35] louis_to minimal effort practice=best
[16:21:42] paveljanik BTW: +1 for coordinator even with names (for the minutes ;-)
[16:21:49] louis_to thanks!
[16:21:59] louis_to woo-hoo
[16:22:01] CorNouws paveljanik: thanks :-)
[16:22:45] louis_to so, to the other matter at hand, as stated and nuanced, thie idea is to formalize what is done now but to grant the CC direct intervention authority should the need arise
[16:22:56] stx12 louis_to: if the project creation / removal within incubator / nlc needs clarification, then I would b ehappy to read revised doc and vote on it.
[16:23:21] louis_to give me a few minutes. And I can rather send it to the list
[16:23:32] stx12 i think we agree on the general idea
[16:23:45] Thalion72 louis_to: I'd even give you some days ;)
[16:23:53] stx12 about 12
[16:24:00] Thalion72 so that we can read before the next meeting and then vote on it
[16:24:58] louis_to proposal: The lead of Incubator and the two leads of the Native Language Confederation are delegated by the Community Council to create and dis-create projects in their respective categories as needed; the Community Council reserves the right to intervene in any act of creation or discreation as it sees fit.
[16:25:16] jpmcc dis-create?
[16:25:25] louis_to expunge?
[16:25:28] louis_to but theiy are not
[16:25:41] louis_to kill?
[16:25:43] louis_to mothball?
[16:25:45] louis_to undo?
[16:25:46] louis_to whatever
[16:25:46] jpmcc remove?
[16:25:48] Thalion72 terminate
[16:25:55] louis_to all those sound so drastic
[16:25:57] louis_to but the idea is good
[16:26:01] jpmcc ex-terminate (like the daleks ;-)
[16:26:05] louis_to :-)
[16:26:11] louis_to "remove" sounds best
[16:26:34] louis_to but let's vote?
[16:26:35] stx12 I don't think creation is done "as needed". there is a fine description of the steps. 
[16:26:36] Thalion72 anihilate ? :)
[16:26:55] louis_to "as requested"
[16:26:59] Thalion72 but I second stx12
[16:26:59] jpmcc retire
[16:27:09] louis_to yeah, I like "retire"
[16:27:13] * stx12 would like to retire for today
[16:27:25] Thalion72 as we have some good rules for creation, we should have some for the opposit as well
[16:27:27] louis_to do we agree on "as requested" and "retire"? 
[16:27:40] louis_to but we do not have to spell them out righ tnow
[16:27:54] jpmcc I agree to retire asap
[16:28:02] louis_to as we are voting only on the general delegation of authority
[16:28:05] Thalion72 louis_to: hmm ..ifyou are really calling for a vote ...
[16:28:19] louis_to a closure to this fairly minor issue
[16:28:25] CorNouws Thalion72: +1 ??
[16:28:26] Thalion72 no, we are voting on the proposal, as currenty written
[16:28:37] louis_to so we can work on the larger one of spelling out what is entailed by removal
[16:28:38] Thalion72 and tis will get a -1
[16:28:39] stx12 and we are asked to vote on the document change again? 
[16:28:43] louis_to and retirement
[16:28:48] CorNouws Thalion72: Oops ;-)
[16:29:20] louis_to okay, I table this for next meeting and in the meanwihle suggest we work on the steps of retirement of a project in Incubator and NLC
[16:29:36] louis_to AI: stx12, louis_to, Thalion72
[16:29:43] * CorNouws Sorry for joking on André, was not mentioned to take him not serious
[16:30:10] louis_to with louis_to to come up with initial draft, stx12 with steps for retirement/removal/ and Thalion72 to reivew and edit as needed
[16:30:22] Thalion72 CorNouws: no problem ;) ... I'tslate enough, so I don'ttake serious myself
[16:30:23] stx12 you may want to out you at the first position in the list of ai owners.
[16:30:43] louis_to stx12: you refer to me?
[16:30:48] stx12 sure ;-)
[16:31:07] louis_to hm. not sure what you mean, exactly
[16:31:22] CorNouws Three owners is no owner :-)
[16:31:43] CorNouws We know, Stefan, don 't we?
[16:31:44] louis_to okay, AI louis and to work with the others cited
[16:31:48] stx12 CorNouws: yes, but then it was spelled out 
[16:32:02] louis_to and also others as wanted
[16:32:07] louis_to if no other comments?
[16:32:18] CorNouws not from me
[16:32:19] louis_to I move we adjourn tonight's meeting, then
[16:32:33] CorNouws shall I do AI's ?
[16:32:42] louis_to yes, please!
[16:32:46] CorNouws someone interested in minutes?
[16:32:48] * louis_to is ever so thankful!!
[16:33:00] CorNouws ( I won't do those, btw ;-) )
[16:33:04] louis_to I can send off iRC log
[16:33:05] Thalion72 interested in reading or doingminutes? ;)
[16:33:15] CorNouws louis_to: your'e welcome
[16:33:20] CorNouws doing, of course
[16:33:34] CorNouws But I include "decided"on the wiki
[16:33:48] * Thalion72 is not really interested but will do at the weekend
[16:34:09] *** jpmcc has quit IRC ("Bye....")
[16:34:09] louis_to Thanks!
[16:34:18] CorNouws Thalion72: maybe look at the wiki first, the sun might be waiting for you diring the weekend
[16:34:36] louis_to if no objections, I call meeting adjourned