Log Mac Meeting 4 July 2007

Aquavcl02 objectives :

Achieve first Aqua version

drag and drop resolution issues click on document => OOo opens the document native filepicker add more Aqua look

Aquavcl03 :

Start Cocoa migration

[14:09] shaunmcdonald 2. Latest Aqua news / Work in progress [14:09] hdu_hh handling AppleEvents [14:10] PhilippL aquavcl01 is ready for nomination. [14:10] shaunmcdonald The 2nd preview release has been out in the wild for a couple of days now [14:11] shaunmcdonald there has been a few useful issues [14:11] CerebrosuS getKeyName implementation in AquaSalFrame [14:11] shaunmcdonald not much in terms of other publicity yet [14:11] hdu_hh there seems to be much less public interest in the 2nd preview. Why? This is usable for many tasks now while the old release wasn't [14:12] shaunmcdonald It doesn't seem to have gone into the versiontracker mail [14:12] PhilippL hdu_hh: sic transit gloria mundi ... [14:12] shaunmcdonald the X11 version got there though [14:13] shaunmcdonald 1,899 referals from versiontracker for the X11 [14:13] shaunmcdonald version of ooo 2.2.1 [14:15] sunrayjogi ExLachs: no [14:15] shaunmcdonald now that aqua 2nd preview has been out for a few days and initial distribution problems are sorted, we should start speaking to some media [14:16] PhilippL media ? [14:16] shaunmcdonald we have had 464 referalls from version tracker for the current aqua version [14:16] * ericb2 back [14:16] ericb2 sorry , very busy today [14:16] shaunmcdonald PhilippL: mac news sites [14:17] shaunmcdonald ericb2: no problem, we're now at item 2 of the agenda [14:17] shaunmcdonald http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/32607 is the aqua version of ooo [14:17] * shaunmcdonald thinks we should upload an icon for it [14:18] shaunmcdonald a 32x32 picel 24 bit png icon is needed [14:20] * CerebrosuS could create one, ... from an ooo icon, ... but where or how to upload it? [14:20] shaunmcdonald CerebrosuS: I have developer access to the ooo products in VersionTracker [14:21] shaunmcdonald CerebrosuS: thus I have the form sitting here as part of my account [14:21] CerebrosuS oh ok, ... so i will give you a pic today [14:22] shaunmcdonald CerebrosuS: great [14:22] shaunmcdonald a 16x16 pixel optimized version is also recommended [14:22] CerebrosuS ok [14:22] CerebrosuS from what? [14:22] CerebrosuS the normal ooo logo? [14:23] shaunmcdonald CerebrosuS: it request 2 of the same icon, which are different sizes [14:24] shaunmcdonald CerebrosuS: if you want to send 2 screenshots of aqua too, that would be brilliant [14:24] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: when OpenOffice.org Logo is used, I think the best is advertise Louis, and / or Marketing project ( Florian Effenberger is a good candidate ;) ) [14:24] CerebrosuS of mac aqua? [14:24] CerebrosuS no problem [14:24] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: will the two last one I did on my blog be ok ? [14:24] CerebrosuS s/mac/ooo [14:25] shaunmcdonald CerebrosuS: requirements are JPEG, GIF, or PNG, with a max size of 480x360 with a mac size of 150k bytes [14:25] shaunmcdonald CerebrosuS: ooo aqua yes [14:26] CerebrosuS ok [14:26] * shaunmcdonald thought that the other ooo's mentioned on version tracker included the ooo icon [14:27] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: I have screenshots to propose, usijng Tango icons [14:28] shaunmcdonald ericb2: great, send them to CerebrosuS and me please [14:28] shaunmcdonald ericb2: we can only put 2 of them up [14:28] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: everything is on my site : [14:28] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: [14:28] ericb2 [14:28] ericb2 [14:28] ericb2 [14:29] ericb2 [14:29] CerebrosuS is itup to me to create free icons, ... or just optimize the standard ooo logo with 2 birds? [14:29] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: 400 x 250 for the minis [14:29] ericb2 CerebrosuS: we are OpenOffice.org project, and we must use official logos [14:29] CerebrosuS sure ;) np [14:30] ericb2 CerebrosuS: please ask louis@ + cc floeff@openoffice.org [14:30] mav_eric ericb2: I stumpled across an issue with Tango Iconset [14:31] mav_eric but back to media. [14:31] ericb2 mav_eric: maybe. the problem with crystal and tango is they have a wrong size, and debug assertions always tilt with them ... [14:31] mav_eric german community informed every media that got informed when snapshot 1 was released [14:32] mav_eric ericb2: add to this that if you use Tango or Crystal the "Standard Toolbar" dissappears when loading a template .ott [14:32] * shaunmcdonald hasn't had time to inform the en media yet [14:32] mav_eric instead it shows two times the "format toolbar" [14:32] * cremlae has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [14:32] * cremlae (n=cremlae@64.122.192.112) has joined #ooo_macport [14:32] ericb2 mav_eric: even reinstalling ? [14:32] mav_eric I think this is normal that a second snapshot isn't that hot a thing [14:33] ericb2 mav_eric: there is a generic bug with toolbars [14:33] mav_eric ericb2: done that. I even deleted my user settings [14:33] ericb2 ( toll bars ;) ) [14:33] * shaunmcdonald partly wanted to wait a day or two after release to make sure that any teething problems are fixed [14:33] mav_eric ericb2: sunrayjogi did confirm that it doesn't occure when using standard Icon set [14:33] mav_eric but we didn't want to file an issue before talking to you [14:34] ericb2 mav_eric: I think you can file an issue, and everyone will track, if ever the issue is repeatable [14:34] mav_eric ericb2: O.K. I'll file an issue once I see a light at the end of the tunnel of work that needs to be done today [14:35] mav_eric My ISP was down from 15 cet to 21 cet yesterday [14:36] CerebrosuS email is gone, ... so i will directly optimize the screenshots [14:37] * ericb2 declared aquavcl01 "nominated"  :) [14:37] PhilippL ericb2: yay ! :-) [14:37] ericb2 (Pavel is away for yet one week ) [14:37] ericb2 PhilippL: yesss ! [14:38] ericb2 congratulations to all developpers who contributed, and let's go for aquavcl02 ! [14:39] sunrayjogi ericb2: ...ehm.... I am not a developer :-) [14:40] ericb2 congratulations to all people (even not developers ) who contributed, and let's go for aquavcl02 ! [14:40] ericb2 sunrayjogi: excuse me :) [14:41] ericb2 sunrayjogi: for me you are developer btw [14:43] ericb2 next point ? [14:43] shaunmcdonald sunrayjogi: tester help in the development of the software, therefore in a broad context testers are developers [14:44] shaunmcdonald 3. aquavcl01 cws integration (part3) [14:44] ismael_ other aqua news [14:44] PhilippL well, it's almost there :-) [14:45] ismael_ i made listboxes more aqua [14:45] ericb2 ismael_: great ! [14:45] ericb2 ismael_: I read your long patch, and this a great work [14:46] shaunmcdonald 4. aquafilepicker01 integration [14:46] ismael_ i also reviewed my patch for aqua tabs and i plan to commit it, only the part of drawing of tabs not the part which replace several lines of tabs by a listbox [14:47] PhilippL ismael_: +1 [14:47] ismael_ ericb2:yes it is a bit long as i modified a lots of parts of listboxes [14:47] ismael_ i also made a patch for removing the bold text of focused tabs [14:47] ericb2 ismael_: another thing you did, and I found very interesting, was how you solved the "bold" tab issue. Good work [14:48] ismael_ but this patch concerns not only the macport but at least gnome ooo [14:48] ismael_ so do i commit it only to aquavcl ? [14:49] ericb2 PhilippL: what do you think for gnome part ? [14:49] ismael_ although it may profit to other platforms? [14:49] PhilippL ericb2: The gnome part is pretty localized and also an improvement, so I think its good. [14:51] ericb2 ismael_: you can commit it, and if ever we discover something to change, we have the time with aquavcl02 [14:51] ismael_ ericb2: so i commit it to aquavcl02? [14:52] ericb2 ismael_: yes [14:52] ismael_ ericb2: ok [14:52] ericb2 ismael_: aquavcl01 is closed, and nominated [14:52] ismael_ ericb2: and what about for gnome? [14:53] PhilippL ismael_: commit it to aquavcl02, also. If aquavcl02 doesn't make it into 2.3, then we can merge the change over to some other CWS. [14:53] ismael_ PhilippL: ok [14:55] ericb2 to close the point, I'll propose, for next meeting, or once Pavel will be back, to define clear objectives for aquavcl02 [14:59] PhilippL next point ? [15:00] shaunmcdonald 4. aquafilepicker01 integration [15:04] shaunmcdonald how is the integration progressing? [15:04] ericb2 I think only Florian Heckl can answer. Currently they are open issues [15:04] ericb2 I have no other information [15:05] ericb2 according to EIS, aquafilepicker01 is in new state [15:05] ericb2 Back to new - because of two crashes. [15:05] ericb2 #i77843# [15:05] shaunmcdonald ericb2: ok [15:06] shaunmcdonald lets move on [15:06] shaunmcdonald 5. development after aquavcl01 [15:06] IZBot porting DEFECT STARTED P2 OOo crashes upon clicking Finish in database wizard with Native File Picker http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=77843 [15:06] PhilippL I propose to begin Cocoa transition. [15:06] * mod__ just wants to mention, that the good news was in German media, stating that the port is making huge progress [15:06] shaunmcdonald mod__: great [15:06] sunrayjogi PhilippL: You have fun with the Mac, haven't you? .-) [15:06] PhilippL Anything we do now in carbon will need to be converted to cocoa else. [15:06] ericb2 PhilippL: ok. Noticed [15:08] hdu_hh I suggest to use aquavcl02 to make Aqua2.3 usable, then do the Cocoa transition [15:08] ericb2 PhilippL: the most urgent is to define clearly what we do : wrap ObjC or use objc++ directly [15:09] shaunmcdonald making ooo useable is most important [15:09] ericb2 PhilippL: I think hdu_hh proposal is a good idea [15:09] ericb2 PhilippL: and I'd vote for : start to define rules, but complete usability first [15:09] shaunmcdonald later do the transition to cocoa, say in aquavcl03 [15:09] PhilippL me not. We'll have to postpone accessibility implementation then. [15:10] PhilippL just to implement everthing again ? [15:10] shaunmcdonald then thereafter, we can look into other things like scriptability [15:10] sunrayjogi who will fix issue 79212 [15:10] shaunmcdonald PhilippL: anything new will be done in Cocoa [15:10] IZBot porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=79212 [15:10] PhilippL shaunmcdonald: Which will be exactly nothing unless we start to make cocoa useable. [15:11] shaunmcdonald PhilippL: are we that far through the implementation already? [15:11] ericb2 PhilippL: we have deep changes, starting with window, frame and events [15:11] PhilippL ericb2: yes, exactly, and the longer we wait the worse the change gets. [15:12] ericb2 PhilippL: can drag and drop we implemented without Cocoa. This is imho the only basic missing feature [15:12] ericb2 ? [15:13] ericb2 PhilippL: another question : will we manage .nib files ? [15:13] * dave_largo (n=drichard@64-132-254-105.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #ooo_macport [15:13] PhilippL ericb2: I don't think so. What would we do with tem ? [15:13] hdu_hh ericb2: click on document => OOo opens the document would be a basic feature too [15:13] ericb2 hdu_hh: does the attached patch work ? [15:13] shaunmcdonald do we have a list of this is implemented, and this needs to be implemented in the future? [15:14] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: that's waht I had in mind for newt meeting [15:14] shaunmcdonald hdu_hh: I think that can be done without cocoa? [15:14] ericb2 s/newt/newt/ [15:14] ericb2 next [15:14] ericb2 oh [15:14] hdu_hh the AppleEvents are a Carbon thing [15:14] shaunmcdonald ericb2: then we can push each item into a aquavcl0X release [15:15] shaunmcdonald hdu_hh: AppleEvents cannot be used in Cocoa? [15:15] ericb2 hdu_hh: right [15:15] hdu_hh shaunmacdonald: they probably can, but the APIs are documented in the Carbon section [15:15] PhilippL just another thing that needs to be redone. [15:16] hdu_hh maybe they'll deprecate them too sooner or later [15:16] sunrayjogi hdu_hh: Apple often deprecate things, like processor types :-) [15:16] ericb2 hdu_hh: unfortunaly , I think so [15:17] sunrayjogi PhilippL: Is it possible to mix Cocoa and Carbon? [15:17] >mod__< do you have link(s) for german press ? [15:17] PhilippL sunrayjogi: yes. [15:17] PhilippL sunrayjogi: or so says apple. [15:17] sunrayjogi PhilippL: So we only have to define which part needs to be written in Cocoa... the rest can be used as it is? [15:18] mav_eric Even without beeing a developer it seems reasonable to make the transistion to Cocoa early enough so that we don't have a final Carbon app needing to ported to Cocoa in full [15:18] mav_eric sunrayjogi: yes. you can mix Cocoa and Carbon [15:18] PhilippL sunrayjogi: The problem is that Carbon UI is deprecated nowadays. [15:18] mav_eric sunrayjogi: it can be used but not in 64bit [15:19] sunrayjogi PhilippL: I know [15:19] mav_eric 64bit - is strictly cocoa and carbon will be frozen at the current stat [15:19] mav_eric state [15:19] mav_eric and more sooner than later vanish [15:19] sunrayjogi mav_eric: I am very interested what M$ will do with their old Carbon app .... [15:20] mav_eric sunrayjogi: i assume they rewrote parts of MSO 2008 in Cocoa [15:20] ericb2 sunrayjogi: you can belive me : Microsfot has resources [15:20] mav_eric they may have faced the same problem we're now facing but may have known earlier [15:20] ericb2 sunrayjogi: 180 developers are working for the next Mac Office version [15:20] mav_eric ok. were just 178 behind :-) [15:21] ExLachs sunrayjogi, issue 79212 has a patch attached. can someone try it? [15:21] IZBot porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=79212 [15:21] ericb2 Can we define priorities ? [15:23] mav_eric my proposal: 1. new features - Cocoa only [15:23] mav_eric 2. move old deprecated carbon to Cocoa [15:24] ismael_ FYI, mikesic is working on a cocoa spellchecker [15:24] mav_eric 3. if necessary features freeze until the move to Cocoa is done [15:24] ismael_ so "cocoa transition" has already started in a certain way [15:24] hdu_hh mav_eric: 4. have a usable AquaOOo 2.3 [15:24] * ericb2 proposes something different : 1) what is needed [15:25] mav_eric hdu_hh: could be a nice side effect :-) [15:25] ericb2 1) define a limit for current port [15:25] PhilippL mav_eric: Some things will not be moved to Cocoa since they do not exist there example: HITheme API. But I think there shouldn't be many more. [15:25] mav_eric PhilippL: so this needs to be redone in Cocoa once Carbon is "gone" [15:25] * shaunmcdonald hopes the new spell checker will be better than the Mac OS X spell checker, which removes the underline when you are editing a mis-spelled word [15:25] ericb2 PhilippL: we have code for HIView ( at least we don't start from scratch) [15:26] PhilippL mav_eric: There are two possibilities: 1. Apple implements a theme API for Cocoa, too ( a radar issue exists for that ) [15:26] PhilippL mav_eric: Or 2), we switch our UI to native Cocoa controls (actually to native controls on all platforms). This however would be a long, evolutinary migration process. [15:27] ericb2 PhilippL: about HITheme, my sources told me : No ( but maybe my sources are not good .. ) [15:27] mav_eric PhilippL: O.k. so some things need to stay carbon while the long evolution is gone? [15:27] ismael_ shaunmcdonald: it will be the native mac os spellchecker [15:27] PhilippL mav_eric: yes. [15:28] * Fridrich has quit (Remote closed the connection) [15:28] PhilippL mav_eric: However our AquaSalFrame should move to Cocoa so the Accessibilty implementation can base on that. [15:28] mav_eric PhilippL: O.K. this even sounds to me as a no coder good [15:28] * Fridrich (n=fridrich@137.137.62.81.cust.bluewin.ch) has joined #ooo_macport [15:28] * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Fridrich [15:28] ericb2 FYI, what is currently missing : [15:28] ericb2 drag and drop [15:28] ericb2 resolution issues [15:28] ericb2 click on document => OOo opens the document [15:28] ericb2 native filepicker [15:28] ericb2 add more Aqua look [15:29] ericb2 this list could close the first aqua implementation, (and close aquavcl02) [15:29] PhilippL ericb2: multi display support, plugins, applets, tons of stuff ;-) [15:29] ericb2 PhilippL: later [15:29] ericb2 PhilippL: whith my list, 90% of people (maybe more), are happy [15:30] mav_eric PhilippL: ericb2 is right. First we need to cover the 10% of the basic features mosten used [15:30] PhilippL We don't reach beta quality until we are feature complete. [15:31] shaunmcdonald muti display is important for presentations [15:31] PhilippL That's basically the defintion of beta. [15:31] * shaunmcdonald thought applets within ooo had been disabled a long time ago due to security [15:31] PhilippL However you are of course right, that aquavcl02 should not be feature complete yet. [15:31] * divoe_ (n=divoe01@dslc-082-082-130-193.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #ooo_macport [15:31] mav_eric PhilippL: so you want an "old school" beta? [15:32] PhilippL mav_eric: I wouldn't call what we have now or after aquavcl02 a "beta" [15:32] mav_eric PhilippL: agreed [15:32] ericb2 PhilippL: aquavcl0" can be created now if you want, and in parallel, becaue experimental. and if ever progress are fast, we could modify our timeline [15:32] PhilippL mav_eric: A beta should basically be reached when OOo 3.0 gets "beta", which is somewhen next year ? [15:32] mav_eric PhilippL: yes. There is a wiki page about this. [15:33] * ericb2 meant aquavlc03 could be created [15:33] shaunmcdonald a plugin for web browsers would be good as linux and windows has that [15:33] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: later, this is gadget [15:33] shaunmcdonald the beta for ooo 3.0 is the start of next year [15:33] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: compared to drag and drop [15:33] shaunmcdonald ericb2: of course, it is on a "later" list [15:34] ericb2 Can we summarize ? [15:34] * obr thinks webbrowser plugin should be done with xslt transforms (also on other platforms) [15:34] shaunmcdonald ooo 2.0 feature freeze is march 2008 http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease30 [15:35] shaunmcdonald s/ooo 2.0/ooo 3.0 [15:37] ericb2 I propose : [15:37] ericb2 Aquavcl02 objectives : [15:37] ericb2 Achieve first Aqua version [15:37] ericb2 drag and drop [15:37] ericb2 resolution issues [15:37] ericb2 click on document => OOo opens the document [15:37] ericb2 native filepicker [15:37] ericb2 add more Aqua look [15:37] ericb2 Aquavcl03 : [15:37] ericb2 Start Cocoa migration [15:37] ericb2 Opinions ? [15:38] PhilippL ok, let's do that [15:38] ericb2 both cws can start today [15:38] ericb2 +1 for me [15:38] PhilippL aquavcl02 is running already. [15:38] hdu_hh +1 from me too [15:39] ericb2 PhilippL: yes :) [15:39] ericb2 of course, other issues fixd in meantime are welcome :) [15:40] * shaunmcdonald wonders what happens with changes in 1 CWS affecting/causing conflict with the other [15:40] * sunrayjogi will like it to see the old "interface builder" from NeXT again ;-) [15:41] mav_eric sunrayjogi: doesn't it kind of still exist in the Interface Builder? [15:41] sunrayjogi hdu_hh: issue 79212 has a patch - could you add it to aquavcl02? [15:41] ericb2 Next point ? [15:41] IZBot porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=79212 [15:42] sunrayjogi mav_eric:  ? [15:42] mav_eric sunrayjogi: With the developer tools there is an app called "Interface Builder" installed [15:42] sunrayjogi sunrayjogi: yes, it makes no sense to use it in carbon AFAIK; Its for Cocoa apps [15:43] hdu_hh ericb2: will do [15:43] sunrayjogi mav_eric: we're on the way to Cocoa, so maybe it will make sense to have a look at it - after many years of abstinence [15:43] shaunmcdonald 6. testtool and its packaging in the application bundle [15:43] * sunrayjogi has started with NEXTSTEP [15:43] mav_eric sunrayjogi: That's a descision to be made by the devs and they seem to favour other ways [15:44] mav_eric decission [15:44] * divoe has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [15:45] hdu_hh sunrayjogi: will do [15:45] sunrayjogi hdu_hh: fine... on friday I will have self-made schoko crossies for my devs :-) (if my daughter won't eat them all) [15:46] hdu_hh sunrayjogi: mmmh :-) [15:46] sunrayjogi mav_eric: we will see... I haven't seen a GUI designer for VCL.... [15:46] mav_eric sunrayjogi: I once was able to modify and existing GUI and it was pretty self explaining [15:46] ericb2 Next point  ?  :-) [15:46] mav_eric sunrayjogi: we should get rid of vcl ;-) [15:47] PhilippL sunrayjogi: I wouldn't bereave your daughter of chocolate :-) [15:47] hdu_hh mav_eric: where is the patch? [15:47] ericb2 hdu_hh:  ;) [15:47] sunrayjogi hdu_hh: -> ask Gregor [15:47] sunrayjogi ExLachs: PATCH? [15:47] mav_eric hdu_hh: no idea? [15:48] hdu_hh mav_eric: the patch to replace vcl with something better ;-) [15:48] shaunmcdonald 6. testtool and its packaging in the application bundle [15:48] mav_eric hdu_hh: hmm. Nowhere. [15:49] sunrayjogi hdu_hh: see attachment from gh - there is the patch [15:49] ExLachs sunrayjogi, second attachment to issue 79212 [15:49] sunrayjogi ExLachs: jaja ;-) [15:49] hdu_hh sunrayjogi: ok [15:49] IZBot porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=79212 [15:49] sunrayjogi shaunmcdonald: is it important? [15:49] ExLachs but I couldn't try it so first test please

[15:49] sunrayjogi shaunmcdonald: There is a need for us that it can be run.