Log Mac meeting 13th October 2006

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Oct 13 21:53:10 ericb2 tino: I see you are doing th resync with m187 ?

Oct 13 21:53:19 tino ericb2: Yes

Oct 13 21:54:00 ericb2 tino: It was a good thing to advertise : I was thinking to commit :-/

Oct 13 21:55:39 tino ericb2: :)

Oct 13 21:55:39 tino ericb2: Wait a little bit yet

Oct 13 21:59:38 * schmidtm (n=schmidtm@p54ADF669.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #ooo_macport

Oct 13 21:59:38 schmidtm back to live.

Oct 13 22:01:06 ericb2 schmidtm: hi Matthias

Oct 13 22:01:35 mprove Hi there, what's up?

Oct 13 22:02:25 schmidtm ericb2: Hi Eric - I'm back after getting merried, beeing ill and than on a buisness trip.

Oct 13 22:02:25 ericb2 Ooops, sorry, I think we can start

Oct 13 22:02:43 ericb2 schmidtm: yes, congratulations !!

Oct 13 22:03:03 tino schmidtm: Congratulations!

Oct 13 22:03:18 schmidtm thanks :-) !

Oct 13 22:03:25 mprove tada tada tada

Oct 13 22:04:19 ericb2 Let's go : Point 1 is Welcome to new devs, and last aqua news

Oct 13 22:05:14 ericb2 I'm not sure we all know mprove , maybe he could present himself ?

Oct 13 22:06:10 schmidtm ericb2: I am very delighted that you guy picked up my AquaBuild wiki page and improved it!

Oct 13 22:06:10 obr schmidtm: congrats from me as well

Oct 13 22:06:10 schmidtm obr: thanks!

Oct 13 22:06:38 mprove tough - Matthias Müller-Prove. 4 years at Sun in the User Experience Team for StarOffice/OpenOffice

Oct 13 22:06:56 mprove 12years in the industry, that means 3 years at Adobe

Oct 13 22:07:30 mprove +3 years at GoLive -- creating the user interface of the Web Editor Adobe GoLive CyberStudio

Oct 13 22:07:38 mprove now I skip some stuff

Oct 13 22:08:05 mprove computer scientist (Diplom-Informatiker) at U of Hamburg

Oct 13 22:08:23 mprove my special topic is the history of hypertext and GUIs

Oct 13 22:08:29 mprove Q?

Oct 13 22:08:50 ericb2 mprove: Welcome on board :-)

Oct 13 22:08:56 shaunmcdonald mprove: how did you get involved with the mac platform?

Oct 13 22:09:30 mprove many many years ago in secondary school we started with Apple 2 -- the brand sticks

Oct 13 22:09:33 schmidtm mprove: Welcome!

Oct 13 22:09:54 shaunmcdonald mprove: used apple all your life then?

Oct 13 22:10:00 mprove My first Mac OS was System #4

Oct 13 22:10:07 IZBot no issue with number 4

Oct 13 22:10:12 ericb2 :)

Oct 13 22:10:17 shaunmcdonald mprove: well before my time ;-)

Oct 13 22:10:37 mprove Atari (cheaper) Vax (Prolog), Symbolics (Lisp), and now and then PV

Oct 13 22:10:41 mprove oops, PCs

Oct 13 22:11:23 * paveljanik looks like complete Mac newbie :-)

Oct 13 22:11:25 shaunmcdonald mprove: I've used a commodore64 when I was younger, and that was even before my time

Oct 13 22:11:54 ericb2 paveljanik: me too ;-)

Oct 13 22:13:17 ericb2 mprove: what is your plan to help us ? Or suggestion .. or ?

Oct 13 22:13:39 mprove yeah, sorry, cannot compete with you guya

Oct 13 22:13:39 mprove do you remember Boulder Dash on C64? Bit this is a different story.

Oct 13 22:13:39 tino ericb2: And first of all me :)

Oct 13 22:13:39 shaunmcdonald mprove: no

Oct 13 22:13:40 mprove 'was fun

Oct 13 22:13:40 schmidtm mprove: I loved boulderdash on the C64 ...

Oct 13 22:13:40 shaunmcdonald klax, flimbo's quest are memorable cartridge games though

Oct 13 22:13:47 mprove BTW: a half of a photo of me at http://mprove.de/about/contact.html

Oct 13 22:15:11 ericb2 mprove: if you agree, you are welcome to propose a complete one for http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/developers/ currentdevelopers/index.html  ;-)

Oct 13 22:15:35 shaunmcdonald mprove: please send it to me with a little blurb

Oct 13 22:15:58 shaunmcdonald I'll get it added, if there are no complaints

Oct 13 22:16:13 mprove Let's see if I can find my second half somewhere .... http://images.google.de/images?q=Matthias+Mueller-Prove

Oct 13 22:16:16 ericb2 obr cloph schmidtm are invited too :-)

Oct 13 22:16:22 mprove Hmm, but I'll post one to you

Oct 13 22:16:46 shaunmcdonald mprove: best send it to smsm1@openoffice.org

Oct 13 22:17:00 schmidtm ericb2: I'm still in photoshop to make pictures of me look pretty, stay tuned ...

Oct 13 22:17:08 ericb2 schmidtm: :-)

Oct 13 22:19:19 ericb2 Maybe we can continue wit last Aqua changes ?

Oct 13 22:20:04 shaunmcdonald ericb2: is there anyone else we don't know well?

Oct 13 22:20:48 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: maybe sky could present himself ? He proposed to help for the site

Oct 13 22:21:12 shaunmcdonald ericb2: I remember, you had said something about that in an e-mail

Oct 13 22:22:11 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: yes, I did

Oct 13 22:22:56 shaunmcdonald ericb2: My memory can't be that bad then :-P

Oct 13 22:23:27 ericb2 Ok, let's go with last Aqua changes

Oct 13 22:23:41 ericb2 who will start ?

Oct 13 22:24:02 shaunmcdonald hasn't touch aqua code yet :-(

Oct 13 22:24:17 ericb2 paveljanik: ?

Oct 13 22:25:05 schmidtm schmidtm: my last task was to debug a crash, no outcome so far.

Oct 13 22:25:41 * mav_eric (n=erichoch@xdsl-84-44-145-110.netcologne.de) has joined #ooo_macport

Oct 13 22:25:43 ericb2 schmidtm: thanks

Oct 13 22:25:48 paveljanik I do not have news this week - I'm fighting with alpha, transparency and menu images :-(

Oct 13 22:25:50 ericb2 mav_eric: hi Eric

Oct 13 22:25:56 mav_eric hi Eric

Oct 13 22:26:00 shaunmcdonald mav_eric: hello

Oct 13 22:26:10 mav_eric hi Shaun

Oct 13 22:26:21 ericb2 paveljanik: I have seen a screenshot, not easy

Oct 13 22:26:49 paveljanik it should be easy once I find time to investigate all these Bitmap* and *Bitmap types.

Oct 13 22:29:17 ericb2 from my side, I found what was wrong with some native controls : scrollbar now works as expected, and since this evening, I fixed pushbutton drawing

Oct 13 22:29:48 ericb2 of course, the code needs some review

Oct 13 22:30:28 ericb2 Many thanks to Philipp Lohmann, and Kendy for the important tip they gave me on dev@gsl mailing list

Oct 13 22:31:07 ericb2 I got some screenshots, and I'll commit pushbutton code when resync with m187 will be completed

Oct 13 22:31:27 ericb2 http://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/screenshots/native_controls_aqua_13_10_06/

Oct 13 22:31:51 ericb2 next native control I'm working for is ComboBox

Oct 13 22:31:51 tino Resync is in progress :)

Oct 13 22:31:58 ericb2 tino: thank you :-)

Oct 13 22:32:52 ericb2 Of course, Pierre and me are working together. More efficient

Oct 13 22:33:49 ericb2 Last but not least, we try to document everything we do : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_- _Native_Controls

Oct 13 22:34:59 ericb2 Another work in progress I want to mention, is the one Yvan Barthelemy started for native printing

Oct 13 22:35:24 ericb2 http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Native_Printing

Oct 13 22:35:51 schmidtm ericb2: This is 'YBart' in the wiki, right?

Oct 13 22:36:09 ericb2 schmidtm: yes, he is

Oct 13 22:36:31 ericb2 Yvan works with his professor, and maybe they will help us about design.

Oct 13 22:38:07 ericb2 yet another work in progress is the Native Filepicker. Florian is working on it, but I don't know more. Last status was X11 backport does not completely work.

Oct 13 22:38:38 ericb2 that's all for me :-)

Oct 13 22:39:40 tino And finally my work on the bridge exception handling problem, which is on my agenda currently

Oct 13 22:40:06 tino But my progress is very slow currently due to a lot of stress at work :(

Oct 13 22:41:25 tino I have a solution how to fix it which I know works but as I said work in progress. When this is done the intel bridges works completely and I can help more at the really Aqua front again :)

Oct 13 22:42:52 tino Oh and I forgot the testtool problem which I need to have a look at yet

Oct 13 22:45:07 ericb2 other news .

Oct 13 22:45:09 ericb2 ?

Oct 13 22:45:57 ericb2 Point 2: Plan for Improve User Interface

Oct 13 22:46:36 ericb2 mprove: I have added ( with contribution of Matthias M√ºller-Prove ). Are you ok to presnet us your point of view ?

Oct 13 22:46:37 mprove yap - I have to activate my speed typing bot again.

Oct 13 22:46:59 tino mprove: :)

Oct 13 22:47:26 mprove no bot -- I have to do it myself.

Oct 13 22:48:18 mprove So, there is no point in simply telling you the content of the Apple Human Interface Guidelines http://developer.apple.com/ documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html

Oct 13 22:49:10 * ericb2 preparing "Action Items " list :-)

Oct 13 22:51:03 mprove Instead I have 2 other entry points to offer. 1) not every UI element contributes to the same extent to the overall look'n'feel of the UI. Some are more visible and therefore important.

Oct 13 22:51:04 mprove Hence I did some brainstorming with myself and like to discuss what I found.

Oct 13 22:51:07 * shaunmcdonald has Google notepad beside him

Oct 13 22:51:07 mprove 2nd approach: The HIGuidlines contain 3-5 pages at the end about certain levels of brave Apple applications. We can discuss those points as well.

Oct 13 22:51:32 mprove Shall we start with the 1st approach?

Oct 13 22:51:53 ericb2 mprove: please

Oct 13 22:51:57 ericb2 do

Oct 13 22:52:10 * sky peeks his head out

Oct 13 22:52:11 mprove icon, controls, windows, dragNdrop, speed

Oct 13 22:52:50 >schmidtm< thanks :-)

Oct 13 22:52:50 mprove toolbar icons are fine. But we have an issue with the application/document icons visible in the Finder

Oct 13 22:53:21 sky I offered to 'revamp' the porting site

Oct 13 22:55:38 sky as its a disconnected and outdated tangle :)

Oct 13 22:55:38 mprove I know you are aware of this issue, I suppose the OOoCon branding presentation covered this.

Oct 13 22:55:38 sky so ill just throw together what I think it should be and offer it up

Oct 13 22:55:38 mprove controls>menus: some rearrangements of menu items might be necessaary. e.g. Apple has no Exit menu; but an application menu instead

Oct 13 22:55:58 mprove ellipses ("...") are an issue, but this is the same issue that I am working on for OOo anyway.

Oct 13 22:57:08 mprove you are already working an native controls -- that's great! However the Windows freestyle combobox has no equivalent on Mac. And Popups open to the entire height of the screen.

Oct 13 22:57:22 mprove comments?

Oct 13 22:58:09 mprove Then I continue with windows.

Oct 13 22:58:58 mprove windows>dialog: Native FilePicker is important (and on the way?)

Oct 13 22:59:36 ericb2 mprove: Needs some work, but yes, it is

Oct 13 22:59:41 * louis_to (n=louis_to@nat1.sp.collab.net) has joined #ooo_macport

Oct 13 23:00:13 mprove attached Save Alerts to the document are nice-to-have (But even GoLive has not cathed up in this respect)I just bring the point to stress the fact that sometimes little things can make a huge difference

Oct 13 23:00:31 mprove to the user, even thought the functionality remains the same.

Oct 13 23:00:49 mprove OK/Cancel vs. Cancel/OK

Oct 13 23:01:48 sky thats called a Sheet

Oct 13 23:01:52 mprove OOo's tool windows are behaving kind of strange. Each document has its own set of supporting windows. When you change from window A to B the Navigator jumps on the screen.

Oct 13 23:02:34 mprove It's bad on the other platforms as well, but I assume Mac users care more about stuff like that.

Oct 13 23:03:24 shaunmcdonald mprove: bring it inline to the apple HCI, then user's on other platforms happier too?

Oct 13 23:03:45 mprove document window: we can collect many points if we implement a better canvas -- the non page area of a window. shadows and pleasant gradients, you know what I mean, right?

Oct 13 23:04:17 mprove shaunmcdonald: yes, in this case definitely

Oct 13 23:04:34 mprove one final point for doc windows.

Oct 13 23:05:45 mprove I am writing a lot, and when I fist came to Windows the cursor scrolling behaviour drove me nuts. When you scroll your document on Windows the text cursor follows in the visible area.

Oct 13 23:09:02 mprove On Mac it is important (and common) that the text cursor stays where it is. Using the scrollbar or PageUp/Down key dont change the cursor position. Tiny detail, but very important for folks who come from other Mac text applications to OOo

Oct 13 23:09:03 mprove I skip proper dragNdrop behaviour at this point. OOo on Windows/Linux has some homework to do in this area.

Oct 13 23:09:03 mprove Final point of by personal list: Speeeeed

Oct 13 23:09:03 mprove Launch time, save time, and BTW proper progress indicators.

Oct 13 23:09:07 mprove That's it on my approach #1. What do you think?

Oct 13 23:09:10 IZBot no issue with number 1

Oct 13 23:09:30 shaunmcdonald mprove: start time in aqua is less, though that may have something to do with not all the code having been implemented

Oct 13 23:10:12 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: or the fact you are using Intel arch

Oct 13 23:10:12 mprove Do you compare with OOo on Windows/Linux or with other applications for Mac?

Oct 13 23:10:54 mprove any other comments?

Oct 13 23:11:01 shaunmcdonald ericb2: no comparing X11 start to that aqua build you gave me before (on the same machine)

Oct 13 23:11:28 ericb2 mprove: compared to OOo on Linux PowerPC (I build some versions), it's a bit slower on Mac OS X. But not too much IMHO

Oct 13 23:12:07 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: you're right, X11 start time is good

Oct 13 23:12:24 mprove My point is, we have to compete with other big apps on Mac coming from Redmond or Santa Clara.

Oct 13 23:12:39 shaunmcdonald ericb2: but not as good as the aqua ;-)

Oct 13 23:12:51 ericb2 mprove: an important point I discussed with Apple UI engineers at the WWDC, was :

Oct 13 23:13:11 ericb2 when you start, the menus should only show what you need *now*

Oct 13 23:13:30 mprove what is now? Context menus?

Oct 13 23:14:07 ericb2 mprove: yes; e.g. just the first sreen should ask "what do you want to do, or choose to do .. "

Oct 13 23:14:21 mprove or another kind of app that adopts to the task at hand

Oct 13 23:14:44 mprove well -- that is a different approach

Oct 13 23:15:15 mprove We can also discuss the Office12 way at a future meeting

Oct 13 23:15:22 mprove no menus at all

Oct 13 23:15:39 ericb2 mprove: I know Apple will help us if we go in the direction I pointed

Oct 13 23:15:54 ericb2 mprove: sorry, I don't know Office12

Oct 13 23:15:59 mprove design or implementation?

Oct 13 23:16:16 mprove anyway -- are you ready for my 2nd approach?

Oct 13 23:16:40 ericb2 mprove: yes ( /me verbose )

Oct 13 23:16:45 mprove http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.html

Oct 13 23:17:27 mprove an go to Minimum Requirements at http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/ XHIGPrioritizing/chapter_21_section_2.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000957-CH302-SW1

Oct 13 23:18:12 mprove this is a bullet list of requirements for new applications on Mac

Oct 13 23:18:20 mprove let's see

Oct 13 23:18:27 mprove menu bar on top: done

Oct 13 23:18:45 mprove the dock: we don't care yet

Oct 13 23:19:05 mprove multilayer window environment: I suppose we are fine

Oct 13 23:19:24 mprove default locations for documents: don't know

Oct 13 23:19:33 mprove Aqua control: you rock!

Oct 13 23:19:58 mprove System reserved shortcut: Needs to be checked. I suppose there are conflicts.

Oct 13 23:20:31 mprove Use standard keyboard shortcuts: fairly ok.

Oct 13 23:20:45 ericb2 mprove: no, not really. everything has to be done : we start from scratch

Oct 13 23:20:51 mprove clipboard support: dont know, but I think it is ok.

Oct 13 23:21:11 ericb2 no, again

Oct 13 23:21:51 mprove To summarize, the OOo port is not that bad for level 1 compliance.

Oct 13 23:22:43 mprove Next level: and I will skip some points: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/ OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGPrioritizing/chapter_21_section_3.html

Oct 13 23:23:45 mprove well, I'll skip all of them, because I have either mentioned them on my first part, or we have accomplished them because of OOo on other platforms is ok.

Oct 13 23:24:04 mprove Level 3: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGPrioritizing/ chapter_21_section_4.html

Oct 13 23:24:44 mprove I just like to highlight the last point: Surprise and delight

Oct 13 23:25:08 mprove With some jewels in the app users tend to forgive you some other glitches.

Oct 13 23:25:19 mprove That's all folks.

Oct 13 23:25:40 ericb2 mprove: thank you for your expertise :-)

Oct 13 23:26:41 mprove you are welcome

Oct 13 23:26:59 ericb2 mprove: to be present on Mac OS X port since several year, this is the first time we really analyse things like that.

Oct 13 23:27:56 ericb2 mprove: but we had good reasons: nothing was existing, we were not organized, and X11 version had a lot of problems

Oct 13 23:28:22 mprove bootstrapping, right?

Oct 13 23:30:17 ericb2 mprove: yes

Oct 13 23:31:01 mprove The Mac is supposed to be a transparent extension to the mind of the person on front of the screen. Little stuff that is out of place distracts the human ability to focus on the task at hand.

Oct 13 23:31:51 mprove Users want to get their job done. They do not earn anything if they move a window or choose a filename. The results is what matters.

Oct 13 23:33:01 mprove And the computer user interface has to go out of the way as much as possible. Less is more. We can even consider to create a different / alternative toolbarconfiguration for Mac. Easy to do with a huge effect.

Oct 13 23:34:21 mprove BTW - are we running over time? How long do we meet?

Oct 13 23:34:42 ericb2 mprove: average time for meeting is ~2 hours

Oct 13 23:34:54 shaunmcdonald mprove: we have one other item today: the web site

Oct 13 23:35:23 * ericb2 want to finish with 2nd Mac porters meeting in Hamburg Germany :-)

Oct 13 23:35:36 mprove so please go ahead, thanks for your attention

Oct 13 23:35:47 shaunmcdonald ericb2: you never added that to the agenda

Oct 13 23:35:59 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: in misc :-)

Oct 13 23:36:19 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: we already discussed two times about the Mac porters meeting

Oct 13 23:36:28 shaunmcdonald ericb2: you even missed out misc! :-P

Oct 13 23:36:35 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: too tired ;-)

Oct 13 23:36:46 ericb2 mprove: just a word

Oct 13 23:37:02 shaunmcdonald ericb2: I thought the meeting was meant to be set on a Wednesday?

Oct 13 23:37:19 shaunmcdonald mprove: go on

Oct 13 23:37:28 schmidtm ericb2: can you stay after the meeting for 1/2 questions?

Oct 13 23:37:34 ericb2 mprove: your approach is very interesting, and I'll try to find a way to connect everything you presented with Mac port

Oct 13 23:37:42 ericb2 schmidtm: sure

Oct 13 23:38:39 shaunmcdonald next point?

Oct 13 23:40:02 ericb2 no question to mprove  ?

Oct 13 23:41:29 mprove I just got me a bananna, after all this apple stuff. I am happy to share my point of view with you.

Oct 13 23:42:02 shaunmcdonald mprove: hehe

Oct 13 23:42:49 ericb2 Point 3 : last web site changes

Oct 13 23:43:09 shaunmcdonald sky: you ready?

Oct 13 23:43:20 sky ok.

Oct 13 23:43:34 sky Am I to 'take the lead' now?

Oct 13 23:43:44 * mikeleib (n=ike@jffwprtest.jf.intel.com) has joined #ooo_macport

Oct 13 23:43:51 shaunmcdonald I'll do a bit first

Oct 13 23:44:05 shaunmcdonald to say what has changed with the web site lately

Oct 13 23:44:17 shaunmcdonald it has been a while since we discussed it

Oct 13 23:44:34 shaunmcdonald most of the site now has the new look and feel

Oct 13 23:44:50 shaunmcdonald as you will see from http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/

Oct 13 23:45:09 shaunmcdonald which just received the make over this morning (local time)

Oct 13 23:45:37 shaunmcdonald prior to louis announcing the release of 2.0.4

Oct 13 23:46:09 shaunmcdonald that way we had our QAed builds ready before the main page

Oct 13 23:46:34 shaunmcdonald news updated as well

Oct 13 23:47:21 shaunmcdonald today I finally worked out what to do with the grey strip down the right on pages such as http:// porting.openoffice.org/mac/news/news2006.html

Oct 13 23:47:48 shaunmcdonald use it to put some related links or undynamic backlinks

Oct 13 23:47:54 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: clap clap :-)

Oct 13 23:48:02 sky whats up with that?

Oct 13 23:48:13 sky why doesnt the text just fill the space?

Oct 13 23:48:16 mav_eric shaunmcdonald, i'll second that. Looks really good the new site

Oct 13 23:48:25 shaunmcdonald for developers stuff still need to be expanded and more content

Oct 13 23:48:39 shaunmcdonald screenshot also need to be added/completed

Oct 13 23:49:09 shaunmcdonald sky: take a look at http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/index.html and you will see the news in that grey space

Oct 13 23:49:15 mav_eric shaunmcdonald, I have some "old" screenshots showing OOo 2.0.x or so. Once I find them I go through and see if they are of any use

Oct 13 23:49:21 sky right. so each page is gonna have news like that?

Oct 13 23:49:27 shaunmcdonald the same template has been used elsewhere

Oct 13 23:49:46 shaunmcdonald http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/download/index.html has some other info for example

Oct 13 23:49:47 mav_eric shaunmcdonald, if not by the end of november we have a mac session here in germany and I can take some new ones

Oct 13 23:50:32 shaunmcdonald with the screenshots, fipa had said he would do something, but I haven't seen anything yet from him

Oct 13 23:50:39 shaunmcdonald so I might do it my self

Oct 13 23:51:04 shaunmcdonald what I want to do is have two sections, one for X11, or Aqua

Oct 13 23:51:17 shaunmcdonald then have a grid of thumbnails

Oct 13 23:51:45 shaunmcdonald and then you can view a larger version on clicking the thumbnail

Oct 13 23:51:59 shaunmcdonald possible with a slideshow

Oct 13 23:52:16 shaunmcdonald it probably would be easier with a bit of software to generate this

Oct 13 23:52:43 shaunmcdonald if any one else has an easy way to do this then let me know

Oct 13 23:52:55 mav_eric shaunmcdonald, thumbnails etc can be done with graphicconverter

Oct 13 23:53:02 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: I do use iPhoto for my thumbnails/screenshots. Not perfect, but very easy

Oct 13 23:53:27 * sky suggests screencasts should be added to the mix. both for features and help

Oct 13 23:53:28 shaunmcdonald I also need to check all the links on site, as some are not quite right

Oct 13 23:53:50 shaunmcdonald ericb2: fipa had suggested iPhoto too!

Oct 13 23:53:59 shaunmcdonald sky: what is a screencast?

Oct 13 23:55:07 sky its an animated screenshot of shorts, plus you can do voice overs. these could be used to show features, sneak peeks, or as tutorials

Oct 13 23:55:17 mav_eric and for screenshots there is FreeSnap http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/9220

Oct 13 23:55:25 shaunmcdonald Does anyone have anything to go into http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/links.html ?

Oct 13 23:55:38 mav_eric better than the OS X screenshot function

Oct 13 23:55:56 sky shaunmcdonald: you could add all those blogs to the links

Oct 13 23:56:12 mprove I use SnapClip

Oct 13 23:56:26 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: planet ?

Oct 13 23:56:35 shaunmcdonald they are already at http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/news/index.html

Oct 13 23:56:42 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: roadmap

Oct 13 23:57:19 sky What I'd liek to do, is cover a few of the key pages and offer a critique of each

Oct 13 23:57:22 shaunmcdonald ericb2: noted

Oct 13 23:57:39 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: press book or articles ?

Oct 13 23:57:51 shaunmcdonald sky: go ahead, as long as it is constructive

Oct 13 23:57:58 sky haha

Oct 13 23:58:16 shaunmcdonald ericb2: made a todo in my google notebook from ooocon

Oct 13 23:58:25 sky Ok. Site-Wide first.

Oct 13 23:58:59 sky Off site links really need to be more clearly marked. its quite easy to loose your way from the mac site. Specifically, the 'features' should relate to specific mac features and not point off-site

Oct 13 23:59:39 sky I'd like to see at least a few features on the home page, as well as a sort of reconceptualization of its target audience.

Oct 14 00:00:19 shaunmcdonald sky: the features link was put there as a quick way to fill up all the links

Oct 14 00:01:10 shaunmcdonald sky: if you have any ideas for what that page should contain, or the content, let us know and it can be integrated

Oct 14 00:01:12 sky One should assume the audience would like to know: news, features, support, and porting project goals.

Oct 14 00:01:33 sky and have all that available in a welcoming form on the home page.

Oct 14 00:02:30 sky The mission statement is one sentence, then it breaks into a sort of project goals.

Oct 14 00:02:36 sky then it jumps immediately to how to install

Oct 14 00:02:46 shaunmcdonald sky: I think the home page still isn't good enough

Oct 14 00:02:51 sky how about a home page that says, hey, we are the mac porting project of openoffice.

Oct 14 00:03:25 sky We currently offer a X11 based version of our project. Here are some features...

Oct 14 00:03:54 sky In the future, we will offer an more mac like, Aqua based version of our project. Here are some features...

Oct 14 00:04:22 sky Then introduce the community

Oct 14 00:04:59 sky Our community consists of developers and end users. Here is targeted information for each.

Oct 14 00:06:00 mav_eric sky If you want to answer questions about the native port for the next months we can do as you suggest.

Oct 14 00:06:24 sky Thats what the web page should do. its already publiczed information

Oct 14 00:06:29 mav_eric be aware as soon as native is mentioned everyone wants a beta or a final

Oct 14 00:06:32 sky Thats why I'm here./

Oct 14 00:06:42 sky i've followed it for many years

Oct 14 00:06:53 shaunmcdonald sky: I have tried to keep the front page as short as possible

Oct 14 00:06:57 sky So, give em what they want. A screenshot, let em look at the progress

Oct 14 00:07:12 sky but make it clear, on the hme page, that its unavialable

Oct 14 00:07:34 shaunmcdonald BTW how long will it be till we can give them some app that runs, even if it crashes?

Oct 14 00:07:38 mav_eric even if it is very very clear that it's unavailable the questions raise up

Oct 14 00:07:39 sky For instance, you should be able to get to the home page and find: info on the x11 version, plus download.

Oct 14 00:07:49 sky Features being included in the aqua version

Oct 14 00:07:54 mav_eric sky that is already possible

Oct 14 00:08:07 mav_eric basicly the same features

Oct 14 00:08:13 sky no, current versio is not mentioned

Oct 14 00:08:14 mav_eric just "another" look

Oct 14 00:08:21 shaunmcdonald sky: http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/faq/index.html

Oct 14 00:08:27 mprove thanks and good night, guys

Oct 14 00:08:32 shaunmcdonald ooo.org is so slow at the moment

Oct 14 00:08:37 shaunmcdonald mprove: good night

Oct 14 00:08:45 ericb2 sky: shaunmcdonald mav_eric : I propose to discuss this point on mac@porting mailing list :

Oct 14 00:08:59 shaunmcdonald sky: more specifically http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/faq/aqua-prerelease/index.html

Oct 14 00:09:08 ericb2 this way other will contribute and a decision could be taken

Oct 14 00:09:18 mav_eric sky, you're right. Mabye add a 2.0.4 to the download button on the front page

Oct 14 00:09:50 shaunmcdonald there is a lot that needs to be done with the FAQ

Oct 14 00:09:56 sky Another personal example. I dont have any idea if the X11 version will be continuted, or once the aqua is made will be dropped

Oct 14 00:09:56 shaunmcdonald mav_eric: good idea

Oct 14 00:10:01 sky that information should be avilable on the home page

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Oct 14 00:10:46 mav_eric sky maybe we can add a "sneak peek at aqua" link to the front page and give the folks what they want

Oct 14 00:11:53 sky something as simple as 'where we are at, where we are going' needs to be there. and that concept should be fully explored

Oct 14 00:12:11 sky the page will be longer, but rich in information for each type of user we can expect to visit

Oct 14 00:12:21 ericb2 FYI, to provide, even a alpha snapshot of Aqua version, two major bugs have to be fixed first

Oct 14 00:12:52 shaunmcdonald mav_eric: like http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/news/index.html ?

Oct 14 00:13:21 mav_eric yes but for aqua progress.

Oct 14 00:13:22 shaunmcdonald I'm not keen on this as it will be a nightmare for maintenance

Oct 14 00:13:44 sky the news page doesnt actualy have any news on it

Oct 14 00:13:57 sky the developers blogs should be on the links page

Oct 14 00:14:05 sky and the news should actually be on the news page :)

Oct 14 00:14:39 shaunmcdonald sky: the news is split into each year in an archive

Oct 14 00:14:49 sky nobody cares about old news

Oct 14 00:14:51 sky :)

Oct 14 00:15:01 shaunmcdonald that is actually the news archive

Oct 14 00:15:12 shaunmcdonald sky: I love news archives :-

Oct 14 00:15:15 shaunmcdonald :-)

Oct 14 00:15:18 sky well make a news archive then

Oct 14 00:15:22 sky and leave the news on the news page

Oct 14 00:15:41 sky like, put the rss feed contents in the page

Oct 14 00:15:59 shaunmcdonald the problem that we have is that all we have is plain HTML or Javascript

Oct 14 00:16:03 mav_eric shaunmcdonald, I guess what sky means is that the current main content should put into the right grey bar

Oct 14 00:16:09 sky 'port in the media' should actually be under something like 'press' or 'press releases' 'openoffice mac in the press'

Oct 14 00:16:11 shaunmcdonald nothing server side dynamic!

Oct 14 00:16:22 mav_eric and the "real" news should be placed in the middle of the pag

Oct 14 00:16:24 mav_eric page

Oct 14 00:16:55 sky the grey bar is used on one or two page for information or news or whatever, but it should be thrown out

Oct 14 00:17:00 shaunmcdonald mav_eric: I see what you mean

Oct 14 00:17:10 sky let that space be occupied by the main content

Oct 14 00:17:29 shaunmcdonald sky: I now want to put some navigation aids in there

Oct 14 00:17:37 sky Right. I see :)

Oct 14 00:17:38 mav_eric sky best would be if you make a test page

Oct 14 00:17:49 sky ok

Oct 14 00:17:58 sky I am gonna link to something for you to read and consider shaun

Oct 14 00:18:07 mav_eric maybe if we see what you mean it could be more clear

Oct 14 00:18:22 sky before we go any further, I think this will exemplify my point

Oct 14 00:18:52 mav_eric sky agreed

Oct 14 00:18:52 shaunmcdonald the collab framework is a little strange, so we have the folder /mac/testing for check how things look

Oct 14 00:19:05 sky https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/0/f2d03252295e0d0585256e120009adab?OpenDocument

Oct 14 00:19:09 shaunmcdonald http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/testing/

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Oct 14 00:19:25 sky 'on exactitude in science' by jorge luis borges

Oct 14 00:20:07 sky I want you to consider that story as a metaphor for the mac porting site.

Oct 14 00:20:11 mav_eric ok guys it is early morning here in germany it is my birthday and I need some sleep

Oct 14 00:20:19 sky adios eric

Oct 14 00:20:20 mav_eric can we discuss this later on?

Oct 14 00:20:28 mav_eric good night

Oct 14 00:20:35 * mav_eric (n=erichoch@xdsl-84-44-145-110.netcologne.de) has left #ooo_macport ("Verlassend")

Oct 14 00:20:48 * ericb2 suggest to create a wiki page, describing what you all want to achieve, completed with some lnks as tests ?

Oct 14 00:21:13 sky im trying to do this riht now :)

Oct 14 00:21:27 sky Ill see where I get with shaun :)

Oct 14 00:21:55 sky what do you think of that short story?

Oct 14 00:21:58 ericb2 sky: with shaunmcdonald , Fipa and Eric Hoch

Oct 14 00:23:03 shaunmcdonald 4 of us now working on the web site

Oct 14 00:23:13 sky scary

Oct 14 00:23:32 ericb2 sky: I'm physicist in the real life. I'll read more carefully. But I like Borges books

Oct 14 00:23:54 ericb2 ok, last point, before to stop: Misc

Oct 14 00:24:34 ericb2 just to say the second Mac porters meeting will occur in Hamburg (Germany) the 9th and 10th of December

Oct 14 00:24:48 shaunmcdonald for the wiki page see http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacPortWebSite

Oct 14 00:25:24 ericb2 all informations can be found : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/2nd_Mac_porters_meeting

Oct 14 00:26:08 ericb2 many thanks to Kay Backmann and Zaheda Bohrat from Google for their help

Oct 14 00:26:26 shaunmcdonald ericb2: isn't it Kai?

Oct 14 00:26:35 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: oops

Oct 14 00:26:41 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: thank you

Oct 14 00:26:44 sky shaunmcdonald: before I continue, I wait for your response to my suggestion :)

Oct 14 00:26:47 ericb2 Kai Backmann

Oct 14 00:27:25 shaunmcdonald sky: which suggestion specifically?

Oct 14 00:27:44 sky the borges story parallel to the mac porting site

Oct 14 00:27:55 ericb2 shaunmcdonald: thanks for creating the wiki pagge

Oct 14 00:28:05 ericb2 Other questions ?

Oct 14 00:28:09 shaunmcdonald ericb2: no problem

Oct 14 00:28:43 shaunmcdonald sky: I skipped the top part and jumped to the bottom bit

Oct 14 00:28:46 ericb2 FYI, my uggly wiki page has been read more than 6000 times : Cette page a √©t√© consult√©e 6010 fois.

Oct 14 00:28:52 ericb2 :-)

Oct 14 00:28:53 sky thats not the story :P

Oct 14 00:30:17 ericb2 ok, I propose to stop for today. Next meeting : Friday 20th October, same hour

Oct 14 00:30:31 sky word.

Oct 14 00:30:34 ericb2 Good night everyone !

Oct 14 00:30:36 sky its teh weekend!

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Oct 14 00:31:24 obr good night

Oct 14 00:31:31 * obr has quit ()

Oct 14 00:44:01 tino ericb2, paveljanik: Resync still in progress please be patient :(

Oct 14 00:45:00 tino ericb2, paveljanik: I will send you an email when its done but probably not before in the morning ;)

Oct 14 00:45:05 tino CU later

Oct 14 00:45:17 * tino has quit ()

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