Difference between revisions of "Log Mac Meeting 4 July 2007"

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Jul 04 14:02:04 <shaunmcdonald> meeting time?

Jul 04 14:05:33 <CerebrosuS> now

Jul 04 14:05:35 <CerebrosuS> ?

Jul 04 14:06:01 <CerebrosuS> oh ;) damn (german:glck)

Jul 04 14:06:03 <CerebrosuS> lol

Jul 04 14:06:07 <jamesmckenzie> Yes.

Jul 04 14:06:19 <ismael_> let's start

Jul 04 14:06:37 <CerebrosuS> oky

Jul 04 14:06:50 <CerebrosuS> Any new Devs?

Jul 04 14:08:48 <PhilippL> doesn't seem so

Jul 04 14:09:00 <CerebrosuS> yop

Jul 04 14:09:36 <shaunmcdonald> 2. Latest Aqua news / Work in progress

Jul 04 14:09:54 <hdu_hh> handling AppleEvents

Jul 04 14:10:09 <PhilippL> aquavcl01 is ready for nomination.

Jul 04 14:10:17 <shaunmcdonald> The 2nd preview release has been out in the wild for a couple of days now

Jul 04 14:11:20 <shaunmcdonald> there has been a few useful issues

Jul 04 14:11:28 <CerebrosuS> getKeyName implementation in AquaSalFrame

Jul 04 14:11:34 <shaunmcdonald> not much in terms of other publicity yet

Jul 04 14:11:47 <hdu_hh> there seems to be much less public interest in the 2nd preview. Why? This is usable for many tasks now while the old release wasn't

Jul 04 14:12:11 <shaunmcdonald> It doesn't seem to have gone into the versiontracker mail

Jul 04 14:12:21 <PhilippL> hdu_hh: sic transit gloria mundi ...

Jul 04 14:12:53 <shaunmcdonald> the X11 version got there though

Jul 04 14:13:24 <shaunmcdonald> 1,899 referals from versiontracker for the X11

Jul 04 14:13:32 <shaunmcdonald> version of ooo 2.2.1

Jul 04 14:15:00 <sunrayjogi> ExLachs: no

Jul 04 14:15:49 <shaunmcdonald> now that aqua 2nd preview has been out for a few days and initial distribution problems are sorted, we should start speaking to some media

Jul 04 14:16:18 <PhilippL> media ?

Jul 04 14:16:25 <shaunmcdonald> we have had 464 referalls from version tracker for the current aqua version

Jul 04 14:16:30 * ericb2 back

Jul 04 14:16:36 <ericb2> sorry , very busy today

Jul 04 14:16:39 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: mac news sites

Jul 04 14:17:00 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: no problem, we're now at item 2 of the agenda

Jul 04 14:17:18 <shaunmcdonald> http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/32607 is the aqua version of ooo

Jul 04 14:17:34 * shaunmcdonald thinks we should upload an icon for it

Jul 04 14:18:46 <shaunmcdonald> a 32x32 picel 24 bit png icon is needed

Jul 04 14:20:21 * CerebrosuS could create one, ... from an ooo icon, ... but where or how to upload it?

Jul 04 14:20:52 <shaunmcdonald> CerebrosuS: I have developer access to the ooo products in VersionTracker

Jul 04 14:21:16 <shaunmcdonald> CerebrosuS: thus I have the form sitting here as part of my account

Jul 04 14:21:36 <CerebrosuS> oh ok, ... so i will give you a pic today

Jul 04 14:22:01 <shaunmcdonald> CerebrosuS: great

Jul 04 14:22:30 <shaunmcdonald> a 16x16 pixel optimized version is also recommended

Jul 04 14:22:35 <CerebrosuS> ok

Jul 04 14:22:38 <CerebrosuS> from what?

Jul 04 14:22:42 <CerebrosuS> the normal ooo logo?

Jul 04 14:23:16 <shaunmcdonald> CerebrosuS: it request 2 of the same icon, which are different sizes

Jul 04 14:24:22 <shaunmcdonald> CerebrosuS: if you want to send 2 screenshots of aqua too, that would be brilliant

Jul 04 14:24:39 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: when OpenOffice.org Logo is used, I think the best is advertise Louis, and / or Marketing project ( Florian Effenberger is a good candidate ;) )

Jul 04 14:24:43 <CerebrosuS> of mac aqua?

Jul 04 14:24:51 <CerebrosuS> no problem

Jul 04 14:24:55 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: will the two last one I did on my blog be ok ?

Jul 04 14:24:58 <CerebrosuS> s/mac/ooo

Jul 04 14:25:32 <shaunmcdonald> CerebrosuS: requirements are JPEG, GIF, or PNG, with a max size of 480x360 with a mac size of 150k bytes

Jul 04 14:25:39 <shaunmcdonald> CerebrosuS: ooo aqua yes

Jul 04 14:26:00 <CerebrosuS> ok

Jul 04 14:26:50 * shaunmcdonald thought that the other ooo's mentioned on version tracker included the ooo icon

Jul 04 14:27:24 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: I have screenshots to propose, usijng Tango icons

Jul 04 14:28:08 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: great, send them to CerebrosuS and me please

Jul 04 14:28:16 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: we can only put 2 of them up

Jul 04 14:28:41 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: everything is on my site :

Jul 04 14:28:43 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald:

Jul 04 14:28:44 <ericb2>

Jul 04 14:28:49 <ericb2> other : http://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/screenshots/july2007/Tango_icons/Draw/

Jul 04 14:28:57 <ericb2>

Jul 04 14:29:02 <ericb2> other : http://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/screenshots/july2007/Tango_icons/Calc/

Jul 04 14:29:03 <CerebrosuS> is itup to me to create free icons, ... or just optimize the standard ooo logo with 2 birds?

Jul 04 14:29:12 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: 400 x 250 for the minis

Jul 04 14:29:41 <ericb2> CerebrosuS: we are OpenOffice.org project, and we must use official logos

Jul 04 14:29:51 <CerebrosuS> sure ;) np

Jul 04 14:30:33 <ericb2> CerebrosuS: please ask louis@ + cc floeff@openoffice.org

Jul 04 14:30:43 <mav_eric> ericb2: I stumpled across an issue with Tango Iconset

Jul 04 14:31:09 <mav_eric> but back to media.

Jul 04 14:31:19 <ericb2> mav_eric: maybe. the problem with crystal and tango is they have a wrong size, and debug assertions always tilt with them ...

Jul 04 14:31:31 <mav_eric> german community informed every media that got informed when snapshot 1 was released

Jul 04 14:32:14 <mav_eric> ericb2: add to this that if you use Tango or Crystal the "Standard Toolbar" dissappears when loading a template .ott

Jul 04 14:32:21 * shaunmcdonald hasn't had time to inform the en media yet

Jul 04 14:32:27 <mav_eric> instead it shows two times the "format toolbar"

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Jul 04 14:32:50 <ericb2> mav_eric: even reinstalling ?

Jul 04 14:32:55 <mav_eric> I think this is normal that a second snapshot isn't that hot a thing

Jul 04 14:33:02 <ericb2> mav_eric: there is a generic bug with toolbars

Jul 04 14:33:04 <mav_eric> ericb2: done that. I even deleted my user settings

Jul 04 14:33:07 <ericb2> ( toll bars ;) )

Jul 04 14:33:27 * shaunmcdonald partly wanted to wait a day or two after release to make sure that any teething problems are fixed

Jul 04 14:33:28 <mav_eric> ericb2: sunrayjogi did confirm that it doesn't occure when using standard Icon set

Jul 04 14:33:41 <mav_eric> but we didn't want to file an issue before talking to you

Jul 04 14:34:15 <ericb2> mav_eric: I think you can file an issue, and everyone will track, if ever the issue is repeatable

Jul 04 14:34:50 <mav_eric> ericb2: O.K. I'll file an issue once I see a light at the end of the tunnel of work that needs to be done today

Jul 04 14:35:09 <mav_eric> My ISP was down from 15 cet to 21 cet yesterday

Jul 04 14:36:29 <CerebrosuS> email is gone, ... so i will directly optimize the screenshots

Jul 04 14:37:10 * ericb2 declared aquavcl01 "nominated"  :)

Jul 04 14:37:20 <PhilippL> ericb2: yay ! :-)

Jul 04 14:37:25 <ericb2> (Pavel is away for yet one week )

Jul 04 14:37:29 <ericb2> PhilippL: yesss !

Jul 04 14:38:48 <ericb2> congratulations to all developpers who contributed, and let's go for aquavcl02 !

Jul 04 14:39:49 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: ...ehm.... I am not a developer :-)

Jul 04 14:40:46 <ericb2> congratulations to all people (even not developers ) who contributed, and let's go for aquavcl02 !

Jul 04 14:40:52 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: excuse me :)

Jul 04 14:41:03 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: for me you are developer btw

Jul 04 14:43:46 <ericb2> next point ?

Jul 04 14:43:50 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: tester help in the development of the software, therefore in a broad context testers are developers

Jul 04 14:44:15 <shaunmcdonald> 3. aquavcl01 cws integration (part3)

Jul 04 14:44:31 <ismael_> other aqua news

Jul 04 14:44:36 <PhilippL> well, it's almost there :-)

Jul 04 14:45:02 <ismael_> i made listboxes more aqua

Jul 04 14:45:11 <ericb2> ismael_: great !

Jul 04 14:45:47 <ericb2> ismael_: I read your long patch, and this a great work

Jul 04 14:46:30 <shaunmcdonald> 4. aquafilepicker01 integration

Jul 04 14:46:34 <ismael_> i also reviewed my patch for aqua tabs and i plan to commit it, only the part of drawing of tabs not the part which replace several lines of tabs by a listbox

Jul 04 14:47:01 <PhilippL> ismael_: +1

Jul 04 14:47:09 <ismael_> ericb2:yes it is a bit long as i modified a lots of parts of listboxes

Jul 04 14:47:44 <ismael_> i also made a patch for removing the bold text of focused tabs

Jul 04 14:47:47 <ericb2> ismael_: another thing you did, and I found very interesting, was how you solved the "bold" tab issue. Good work

Jul 04 14:48:14 <ismael_> but this patch concerns not only the macport but at least gnome ooo

Jul 04 14:48:42 <ismael_> so do i commit it only to aquavcl ?

Jul 04 14:49:07 <ericb2> PhilippL: what do you think for gnome part ?

Jul 04 14:49:10 <ismael_> although it may profit to other platforms?

Jul 04 14:49:42 <PhilippL> ericb2: The gnome part is pretty localized and also an improvement, so I think its good.

Jul 04 14:51:29 <ericb2> ismael_: you can commit it, and if ever we discover something to change, we have the time with aquavcl02

Jul 04 14:51:55 <ismael_> ericb2: so i commit it to aquavcl02?

Jul 04 14:52:12 <ericb2> ismael_: yes

Jul 04 14:52:19 <ismael_> ericb2: ok

Jul 04 14:52:22 <ericb2> ismael_: aquavcl01 is closed, and nominated

Jul 04 14:52:29 <ismael_> ericb2: and what about for gnome?

Jul 04 14:53:08 <PhilippL> ismael_: commit it to aquavcl02, also. If aquavcl02 doesn't make it into 2.3, then we can merge the change over to some other CWS.

Jul 04 14:53:30 <ismael_> PhilippL: ok

Jul 04 14:55:40 <ericb2> to close the point, I'll propose, for next meeting, or once Pavel will be back, to define clear objectives for aquavcl02

Jul 04 14:59:30 <PhilippL> next point ?

Jul 04 15:00:38 <shaunmcdonald> 4. aquafilepicker01 integration

Jul 04 15:04:01 <shaunmcdonald> how is the integration progressing?

Jul 04 15:04:12 <ericb2> I think only Florian Heckl can answer. Currently they are open issues

Jul 04 15:04:33 <ericb2> I have no other information

Jul 04 15:05:32 <ericb2> according to EIS, aquafilepicker01 is in new state

Jul 04 15:05:51 <ericb2> Back to new - because of two crashes.

Jul 04 15:05:57 <ericb2> #i77843#

Jul 04 15:05:59 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: ok

Jul 04 15:06:03 <shaunmcdonald> lets move on

Jul 04 15:06:04 <shaunmcdonald> 5. development after aquavcl01

Jul 04 15:06:08 <IZBot> porting DEFECT STARTED P2 OOo crashes upon clicking Finish in database wizard with Native File Picker http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=77843

Jul 04 15:06:20 <PhilippL> I propose to begin Cocoa transition.

Jul 04 15:06:25 * mod__ just wants to mention, that the good news was in German media, stating that the port is making huge progress

Jul 04 15:06:37 <shaunmcdonald> mod__: great

Jul 04 15:06:42 <sunrayjogi> PhilippL: You have fun with the Mac, haven't you? .-)

Jul 04 15:06:43 <PhilippL> Anything we do now in carbon will need to be converted to cocoa else.

Jul 04 15:06:55 <ericb2> PhilippL: ok. Noticed

Jul 04 15:08:11 <hdu_hh> I suggest to use aquavcl02 to make Aqua2.3 usable, then do the Cocoa transition

Jul 04 15:08:14 <ericb2> PhilippL: the most urgent is to define clearly what we do : wrap ObjC or use objc++ directly

Jul 04 15:09:15 <shaunmcdonald> making ooo useable is most important

Jul 04 15:09:17 <ericb2> PhilippL: I think hdu_hh proposal is a good idea

Jul 04 15:09:36 <ericb2> PhilippL: and I'd vote for : start to define rules, but complete usability first

Jul 04 15:09:40 <shaunmcdonald> later do the transition to cocoa, say in aquavcl03

Jul 04 15:09:40 <PhilippL> me not. We'll have to postpone accessibility implementation then.

Jul 04 15:10:02 <PhilippL> just to implement everthing again ?

Jul 04 15:10:13 <shaunmcdonald> then thereafter, we can look into other things like scriptability

Jul 04 15:10:26 <sunrayjogi> who will fix issue 79212

Jul 04 15:10:29 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: anything new will be done in Cocoa

Jul 04 15:10:32 <IZBot> porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/ show_bug.cgi?id=79212

Jul 04 15:10:56 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: Which will be exactly nothing unless we start to make cocoa useable.

Jul 04 15:11:22 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: are we that far through the implementation already?

Jul 04 15:11:36 <ericb2> PhilippL: we have deep changes, starting with window, frame and events

Jul 04 15:11:59 <PhilippL> ericb2: yes, exactly, and the longer we wait the worse the change gets.

Jul 04 15:12:45 <ericb2> PhilippL: can drag and drop we implemented without Cocoa. This is imho the only basic missing feature

Jul 04 15:12:48 <ericb2> ?

Jul 04 15:13:12 <ericb2> PhilippL: another question : will we manage .nib files ?

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Jul 04 15:13:29 <PhilippL> ericb2: I don't think so. What would we do with tem ?

Jul 04 15:13:38 <hdu_hh> ericb2: click on document => OOo opens the document would be a basic feature too

Jul 04 15:13:54 <ericb2> hdu_hh: does the attached patch work ?

Jul 04 15:13:54 <shaunmcdonald> do we have a list of this is implemented, and this needs to be implemented in the future?

Jul 04 15:14:15 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: that's waht I had in mind for newt meeting

Jul 04 15:14:21 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_hh: I think that can be done without cocoa?

Jul 04 15:14:25 <ericb2> s/newt/newt/

Jul 04 15:14:29 <ericb2> next

Jul 04 15:14:31 <ericb2> oh

Jul 04 15:14:42 <hdu_hh> the AppleEvents are a Carbon thing

Jul 04 15:14:49 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: then we can push each item into a aquavcl0X release

Jul 04 15:15:10 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_hh: AppleEvents cannot be used in Cocoa?

Jul 04 15:15:11 <ericb2> hdu_hh: right

Jul 04 15:15:54 <hdu_hh> shaunmacdonald: they probably can, but the APIs are documented in the Carbon section

Jul 04 15:15:58 <PhilippL> just another thing that needs to be redone.

Jul 04 15:16:17 <hdu_hh> maybe they'll deprecate them too sooner or later

Jul 04 15:16:44 <sunrayjogi> hdu_hh: Apple often deprecate things, like processor types :-)

Jul 04 15:16:56 <ericb2> hdu_hh: unfortunaly , I think so

Jul 04 15:17:24 <sunrayjogi> PhilippL: Is it possible to mix Cocoa and Carbon?

Jul 04 15:17:29 >mod__< do you have link(s) for german press ?

Jul 04 15:17:33 <PhilippL> sunrayjogi: yes.

Jul 04 15:17:43 <PhilippL> sunrayjogi: or so says apple.

Jul 04 15:17:59 <sunrayjogi> PhilippL: So we only have to define which part needs to be written in Cocoa... the rest can be used as it is?

Jul 04 15:18:07 <mav_eric> Even without beeing a developer it seems reasonable to make the transistion to Cocoa early enough so that we don't have a final Carbon app needing to ported to Cocoa in full

Jul 04 15:18:24 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: yes. you can mix Cocoa and Carbon

Jul 04 15:18:34 <PhilippL> sunrayjogi: The problem is that Carbon UI is deprecated nowadays.

Jul 04 15:18:46 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: it can be used but not in 64bit

Jul 04 15:19:01 <sunrayjogi> PhilippL: I know

Jul 04 15:19:02 <mav_eric> 64bit - is strictly cocoa and carbon will be frozen at the current stat

Jul 04 15:19:03 <mav_eric> state

Jul 04 15:19:19 <mav_eric> and more sooner than later vanish

Jul 04 15:19:52 <sunrayjogi> mav_eric: I am very interested what M$ will do with their old Carbon app ....

Jul 04 15:20:13 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: i assume they rewrote parts of MSO 2008 in Cocoa

Jul 04 15:20:25 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: you can belive me : Microsfot has resources

Jul 04 15:20:28 <mav_eric> they may have faced the same problem we're now facing but may have known earlier

Jul 04 15:20:42 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: 180 developers are working for the next Mac Office version

Jul 04 15:20:56 <mav_eric> ok. were just 178 behind :-)

Jul 04 15:21:00 <ExLachs> sunrayjogi, issue 79212 has a patch attached. can someone try it?

Jul 04 15:21:07 <IZBot> porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/ show_bug.cgi?id=79212

Jul 04 15:21:33 <ericb2> Can we define priorities ?

Jul 04 15:23:08 <mav_eric> my proposal: 1. new features - Cocoa only

Jul 04 15:23:32 <mav_eric> 2. move old deprecated carbon to Cocoa

Jul 04 15:24:09 <ismael_> FYI, mikesic is working on a cocoa spellchecker

Jul 04 15:24:12 <mav_eric> 3. if necessary features freeze until the move to Cocoa is done

Jul 04 15:24:36 <ismael_> so "cocoa transition" has already started in a certain way

Jul 04 15:24:37 <hdu_hh> mav_eric: 4. have a usable AquaOOo 2.3

Jul 04 15:24:54 * ericb2 proposes something different : 1) what is needed

Jul 04 15:25:03 <mav_eric> hdu_hh: could be a nice side effect :-)

Jul 04 15:25:08 <ericb2> 1) define a limit for current port

Jul 04 15:25:09 <PhilippL> mav_eric: Some things will not be moved to Cocoa since they do not exist there example: HITheme API. But I think there shouldn't be many more.

Jul 04 15:25:35 <mav_eric> PhilippL: so this needs to be redone in Cocoa once Carbon is "gone"

Jul 04 15:25:39 * shaunmcdonald hopes the new spell checker will be better than the Mac OS X spell checker, which removes the underline when you are editing a mis-spelled word

Jul 04 15:25:44 <ericb2> PhilippL: we have code for HIView ( at least we don't start from scratch)

Jul 04 15:26:16 <PhilippL> mav_eric: There are two possibilities: 1. Apple implements a theme API for Cocoa, too ( a radar issue exists for that )

Jul 04 15:26:59 <PhilippL> mav_eric: Or 2), we switch our UI to native Cocoa controls (actually to native controls on all platforms). This however would be a long, evolutinary migration process.

Jul 04 15:27:26 <ericb2> PhilippL: about HITheme, my sources told me : No ( but maybe my sources are not good .. )

Jul 04 15:27:35 <mav_eric> PhilippL: O.k. so some things need to stay carbon while the long evolution is gone?

Jul 04 15:27:39 <ismael_> shaunmcdonald: it will be the native mac os spellchecker

Jul 04 15:27:44 <PhilippL> mav_eric: yes.

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Jul 04 15:28:10 <PhilippL> mav_eric: However our AquaSalFrame should move to Cocoa so the Accessibilty implementation can base on that.

Jul 04 15:28:13 <mav_eric> PhilippL: O.K. this even sounds to me as a no coder good

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Jul 04 15:28:36 <ericb2> FYI, what is currently missing :

Jul 04 15:28:38 <ericb2> drag and drop

Jul 04 15:28:38 <ericb2> resolution issues

Jul 04 15:28:38 <ericb2> click on document => OOo opens the document

Jul 04 15:28:38 <ericb2> native filepicker

Jul 04 15:28:38 <ericb2> add more Aqua look

Jul 04 15:29:02 <ericb2> this list could close the first aqua implementation, (and close aquavcl02)

Jul 04 15:29:04 <PhilippL> ericb2: multi display support, plugins, applets, tons of stuff ;-)

Jul 04 15:29:11 <ericb2> PhilippL: later

Jul 04 15:29:27 <ericb2> PhilippL: whith my list, 90% of people (maybe more), are happy

Jul 04 15:30:12 <mav_eric> PhilippL: ericb2 is right. First we need to cover the 10% of the basic features mosten used

Jul 04 15:30:54 <PhilippL> We don't reach beta quality until we are feature complete.

Jul 04 15:31:00 <shaunmcdonald> muti display is important for presentations

Jul 04 15:31:02 <PhilippL> That's basically the defintion of beta.

Jul 04 15:31:27 * shaunmcdonald thought applets within ooo had been disabled a long time ago due to security

Jul 04 15:31:31 <PhilippL> However you are of course right, that aquavcl02 should not be feature complete yet.

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Jul 04 15:31:44 <mav_eric> PhilippL: so you want an "old school" beta?

Jul 04 15:32:03 <PhilippL> mav_eric: I wouldn't call what we have now or after aquavcl02 a "beta"

Jul 04 15:32:13 <mav_eric> PhilippL: agreed

Jul 04 15:32:23 <ericb2> PhilippL: aquavcl0" can be created now if you want, and in parallel, becaue experimental. and if ever progress are fast, we could modify our timeline

Jul 04 15:32:34 <PhilippL> mav_eric: A beta should basically be reached when OOo 3.0 gets "beta", which is somewhen next year ?

Jul 04 15:32:47 <mav_eric> PhilippL: yes. There is a wiki page about this.

Jul 04 15:33:00 * ericb2 meant aquavlc03 could be created

Jul 04 15:33:03 <shaunmcdonald> a plugin for web browsers would be good as linux and windows has that

Jul 04 15:33:14 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: later, this is gadget

Jul 04 15:33:24 <shaunmcdonald> the beta for ooo 3.0 is the start of next year

Jul 04 15:33:25 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: compared to drag and drop

Jul 04 15:33:59 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: of course, it is on a "later" list

Jul 04 15:34:22 <ericb2> Can we summarize ?

Jul 04 15:34:38 * obr thinks webbrowser plugin should be done with xslt transforms (also on other platforms)

Jul 04 15:34:46 <shaunmcdonald> ooo 2.0 feature freeze is march 2008 http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease30

Jul 04 15:35:21 <shaunmcdonald> s/ooo 2.0/ooo 3.0

Jul 04 15:37:41 <ericb2> I propose :

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> Aquavcl02 objectives :

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> Achieve first Aqua version

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> drag and drop

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> resolution issues

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> click on document => OOo opens the document

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> native filepicker

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> add more Aqua look

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> Aquavcl03 :

Jul 04 15:37:42 <ericb2> Start Cocoa migration

Jul 04 15:37:57 <ericb2> Opinions ?

Jul 04 15:38:01 <PhilippL> ok, let's do that

Jul 04 15:38:07 <ericb2> both cws can start today

Jul 04 15:38:22 <ericb2> +1 for me

Jul 04 15:38:25 <PhilippL> aquavcl02 is running already.

Jul 04 15:38:46 <hdu_hh> +1 from me too

Jul 04 15:39:00 <ericb2> PhilippL: yes :)

Jul 04 15:39:34 <ericb2> of course, other issues fixd in meantime are welcome :)

Jul 04 15:40:39 * shaunmcdonald wonders what happens with changes in 1 CWS affecting/causing conflict with the other

Jul 04 15:40:47 * sunrayjogi will like it to see the old "interface builder" from NeXT again ;-)

Jul 04 15:41:24 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: doesn't it kind of still exist in the Interface Builder?

Jul 04 15:41:37 <sunrayjogi> hdu_hh: issue 79212 has a patch - could you add it to aquavcl02?

Jul 04 15:41:42 <ericb2> Next point ?

Jul 04 15:41:48 <IZBot> porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/ show_bug.cgi?id=79212

Jul 04 15:42:05 <sunrayjogi> mav_eric:  ?

Jul 04 15:42:24 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: With the developer tools there is an app called "Interface Builder" installed

Jul 04 15:42:50 <sunrayjogi> sunrayjogi: yes, it makes no sense to use it in carbon AFAIK; Its for Cocoa apps

Jul 04 15:43:03 <hdu_hh> ericb2: will do

Jul 04 15:43:17 <sunrayjogi> mav_eric: we're on the way to Cocoa, so maybe it will make sense to have a look at it - after many years of abstinence

Jul 04 15:43:38 <shaunmcdonald> 6. testtool and its packaging in the application bundle

Jul 04 15:43:40 * sunrayjogi has started with NEXTSTEP

Jul 04 15:43:46 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: That's a descision to be made by the devs and they seem to favour other ways

Jul 04 15:44:00 <mav_eric> decission

Jul 04 15:44:03 * divoe has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

Jul 04 15:45:13 <hdu_hh> sunrayjogi: will do

Jul 04 15:45:51 <sunrayjogi> hdu_hh: fine... on friday I will have self-made schoko crossies for my devs :-) (if my daughter won't eat them all)

Jul 04 15:46:12 <hdu_hh> sunrayjogi: mmmh :-)

Jul 04 15:46:22 <sunrayjogi> mav_eric: we will see... I haven't seen a GUI designer for VCL....

Jul 04 15:46:26 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: I once was able to modify and existing GUI and it was pretty self explaining

Jul 04 15:46:45 <ericb2> Next point  ?  :-)

Jul 04 15:46:54 <mav_eric> sunrayjogi: we should get rid of vcl ;-)

Jul 04 15:47:09 <PhilippL> sunrayjogi: I wouldn't bereave your daughter of chocolate :-)

Jul 04 15:47:18 <hdu_hh> mav_eric: where is the patch?

Jul 04 15:47:30 <ericb2> hdu_hh:  ;)

Jul 04 15:47:30 <sunrayjogi> hdu_hh: -> ask Gregor

Jul 04 15:47:50 <sunrayjogi> ExLachs: PATCH?

Jul 04 15:47:52 <mav_eric> hdu_hh: no idea?

Jul 04 15:48:15 <hdu_hh> mav_eric: the patch to replace vcl with something better ;-)

Jul 04 15:48:17 <shaunmcdonald> 6. testtool and its packaging in the application bundle

Jul 04 15:48:34 <mav_eric> hdu_hh: hmm. Nowhere.

Jul 04 15:49:09 <sunrayjogi> hdu_hh: see attachment from gh - there is the patch

Jul 04 15:49:11 <ExLachs> sunrayjogi, second attachment to issue 79212

Jul 04 15:49:22 <sunrayjogi> ExLachs: jaja ;-)

Jul 04 15:49:25 <hdu_hh> sunrayjogi: ok

Jul 04 15:49:27 <IZBot> porting PATCH NEW P3 testtool crashes with native aqua menues http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/ show_bug.cgi?id=79212

Jul 04 15:49:46 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: is it important?

Jul 04 15:49:51 <ExLachs> but I couldn't try it so first test please

Jul 04 15:49:58 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: There is a need for us that it can be run.

Jul 04 15:50:26 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: it doesn't matter if testtool uses native aqua menus

Jul 04 15:50:29 <sunrayjogi> hdu_hh: you have read Gregors words ? TEST ... :-)

Jul 04 15:50:47 * cloph_away is now known as cloph

Jul 04 15:50:48 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: in theory we could disable them for testtool

Jul 04 15:51:05 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: I did so. I do not want that.

Jul 04 15:51:18 <ExLachs> sunrayjogi, hdu_hh have to go now

Jul 04 15:51:22 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: I mean disable at compile time

Jul 04 15:51:48 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: I would like to test what we will see and not something special...

Jul 04 15:52:24 <sunrayjogi> hdu_hh: on OOO hdu in IZ?

Jul 04 15:52:27 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: is it just testtool that has the problem, or is it the full ooo too?

Jul 04 15:52:40 <hdu_hh> sunrayjogi: yes

Jul 04 15:52:45 <ExLachs> it seem as it the livemenu tries to read the appmenu which is updated by the currently displayed document. This happens while the document is still in corntructor this it fails.

Jul 04 15:52:53 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: -> ask the creator of TT not me (ExLachs)

Jul 04 15:53:18 * shaunmcdonald currently thinks it is just the testtool app that has the problem and not the main ooo app when running tests

Jul 04 15:53:29 * shaunmcdonald hasn't worked with the aqua testtool yet

Jul 04 15:53:51 <ExLachs> seems to be TT only, but sunrayjogi should know about OOo. just reset the env variable before starting OOo and you will see.

Jul 04 15:54:45 <sunrayjogi> ExLachs: I will give it a try

Jul 04 15:55:12 <ExLachs> ok gone now!!

Jul 04 15:55:30 <hdu_hh> ExLachs: bye!

Jul 04 15:55:40 <sunrayjogi> ExLachs: cul8er

Jul 04 15:58:57 * sunrayjogi rebooting after new iTunes and Audio patch

Jul 04 15:59:11 <ericb2> Next point ?

Jul 04 15:59:16 <mav_eric> o.k. guys. I'll have to do some work. I'll read the log. If it's urgent ping me.

Jul 04 15:59:19 * ericb2 will have to go

Jul 04 15:59:23 <ericb2> Next meeting ?

Jul 04 15:59:56 <PhilippL> same time next week ?

Jul 04 16:00:06 * divoe_ has quit ()

Jul 04 16:00:24 * divoe (n=divoe01@dslc-082-082-130-193.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #ooo_macport

Jul 04 16:01:07 <ericb2> +1 for same time next week

Jul 04 16:02:16 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: I have created the log entry : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ Log_Mac_Meeting_4_July_2007

Jul 04 16:02:45 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: can you please add the begining of the meeting ?

Jul 04 16:02:50 <ericb2> Later

Jul 04 16:03:18 <sunrayjogi> +1

Jul 04 16:03:43 <ericb2> PhilippL: just before to go : I have tested your code for issue 77556 , and I think I have understood how use UCKeyTranslate()

Jul 04 16:03:51 <IZBot> porting DEFECT STARTED P3 Tools-Customize-Keyboard - keys not shown http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/ show_bug.cgi?id=77556

Jul 04 16:03:56 <cremlae> Bye, everyone!

Jul 04 16:03:58 <PhilippL> ericb2: good.

Jul 04 16:04:06 <PhilippL> ericb2: now we just need the uchr data

Jul 04 16:04:16 <ericb2> PhilippL: yes

Jul 04 16:04:19 * PhilippL needs to go now, too

Jul 04 16:04:19 * cremlae (n=cremlae@64.122.192.112) has left #ooo_macport

Jul 04 16:04:23 <PhilippL> bye

Jul 04 16:04:24 <ericb2> PhilippL: me too

Jul 04 16:04:27 <ericb2> bye

Jul 04 16:04:29 * PhilippL has quit (Remote closed the connection)

Jul 04 16:05:00 <hdu_hh> ericb2: the attachment in issue 78358 is only a test case, not a patch

Jul 04 16:05:09 <IZBot> porting DEFECT STARTED P3 A blank document appears when trying to open an existing document http:// qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=78358

Jul 04 16:05:31 <ericb2> hdu_hh: ah, ok. I didn't read more than this :/

Jul 04 16:05:43 <ericb2> hdu_hh: sorry. So we have to fix it properly

Jul 04 16:06:07 <hdu_hh> ericb2: I'm working on it

Jul 04 16:06:21 <ericb2> hdu_hh: ok, thank you :)

Jul 04 16:06:46 * ericb2 must leave now :-/ hard day

Jul 04 16:06:48 <tino> all: Any ideas when you wish or would imagine aquavcl02 to be ready meaning having a beta?

Jul 04 16:07:10 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: How will we call the Barcelona build of the Aquavcl*? Am I right that we want to use the event for making news? :-)

Jul 04 16:07:24 <hdu_hh> ericb2: handling the AppleEvents opens a whole lot of other opportunities for better Aqua integration too

Jul 04 16:07:38 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: OpenOffice.org Aqua ?

Jul 04 16:07:42 <sunrayjogi> thorsten: aquavcl02 =! beta

Jul 04 16:07:54 <sunrayjogi> tino: aquavcl02 =! beta

Jul 04 16:08:04 <tino> sunrayjogi: Ah I thought so

Jul 04 16:08:07 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: I mean which state we want to have reached then?

Jul 04 16:08:30 <tino> sunrayjogi: Barcelona is a good keyword :)

Jul 04 16:08:41 <ericb2> tino: +1

Jul 04 16:08:49 <ericb2> tino: great idea !

Jul 04 16:09:06 <sunrayjogi> tino: Ok, which state? Beta? First User Impression Version ? What ever?

Jul 04 16:09:31 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: IMHO, I'd say Tech Preview :)

Jul 04 16:09:59 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: hehe

Jul 04 16:10:21 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: I think the word beta, if desserved , will come from the public

Jul 04 16:10:27 <hdu_hh> ericb2: Tech Preview is not good IMHO, because they won't see a non-Carbon successor

Jul 04 16:10:27 <tino> sunrayjogi: Im not really sure what the requirements are to call the version beta?

Jul 04 16:10:39 <ericb2> hdu_hh: I was joking ;)

Jul 04 16:10:52 <hdu_hh> ericb2: ;-)

Jul 04 16:11:47 <sunrayjogi> tino: The progress on the project was very high; higher then expected I do not have machines inside office, only the community one and my own at home... I need some arguments to get faster the QA on track.

Jul 04 16:12:11 <tino> sunrayjogi: I see

Jul 04 16:12:31 <sunrayjogi> tino: I have expected that we wanto have a version @barcelona but with or without QA work on it.

Jul 04 16:12:56 * sunrayjogi means QA work +200 tests, real system testing etc.

Jul 04 16:13:07 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: QA early and often, is meant to be better

Jul 04 16:14:32 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: yes, but you need arguments to get resources on your platform... we have also Win32, children's Unix, Solaris x86 and SPARC... you understand?

Jul 04 16:14:54 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: yes

Jul 04 16:15:36 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: if we cannot qa, then we cannot release

Jul 04 16:15:53 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: 2.2.1 en-US was delayed due to lack of resources

Jul 04 16:16:05 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: you have it Shaun

Jul 04 16:16:07 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: maybe we can ponderate QA with the use ?

Jul 04 16:16:20 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: So we need some good argumentation to get more :-)

Jul 04 16:16:31 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: Sparc users are less than Windows users e.g.

Jul 04 16:16:55 <shaunmcdonald> I was pleasantly surprised about how well ooo aqua worked

Jul 04 16:17:06 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: +30.000 are mine... any questions? (SUNW = Solaris)

Jul 04 16:17:12 <ericb2> sunrayjogi:  :p

Jul 04 16:17:20 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: my managers, too :-)

Jul 04 16:17:45 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: ponderate?

Jul 04 16:18:00 <shaunmcdonald> it was the first time that I had not gone via a file to get a screenshot into an ooo document

Jul 04 16:19:10 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: we protected all changes for other archs OS, and excepted at buildtime, I don't see what could cause issue in runtime

Jul 04 16:19:39 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: but of course, my experience is close to zero, and you certainly have good examples to proof me the opposite

Jul 04 16:19:53 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: I would like to enhance the Aqua version... not the rest... we will do regression testing (that is and was my part)

Jul 04 16:20:30 * ismael_ has quit ()

Jul 04 16:20:32 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: it seems that http://de.sun.com/company/employment/openjobs/de0202598.html is more for a coder and it does require relocation to Hamburg

Jul 04 16:20:53 <ericb2> Before to go, I'll propose to keep the codename "Barcelona" , proposed by Tino, for the OOoCon2007

Jul 04 16:21:17 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: name is not important; which state should it have? Productive usage?

Jul 04 16:21:55 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: I don't think so : we need more time, and feedback

Jul 04 16:22:01 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: enough to reduce the current warning on the download page

Jul 04 16:22:05 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: even if all QA tests are successfull

Jul 04 16:22:35 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: maybe we could compare with X11 version ?

Jul 04 16:22:53 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: I don't know but we have also international working engineering teams

Jul 04 16:23:20 <shaunmcdonald> sunrayjogi: on Star/OpenOffice?

Jul 04 16:23:21 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: another important thing missing is RTL feature ( hebrew e.g. )

Jul 04 16:23:27 <sunrayjogi> shaunmcdonald: in software

Jul 04 16:23:53 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: i started to play with it, and I think I'm close at least from frames and mouse cursor. Yet font issues to fix

Jul 04 16:24:04 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: yes, okay. But we will do some marketing for thze version @barcelona, do we?

Jul 04 16:24:04 <ericb2> s/from/for/

Jul 04 16:24:12 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: sure

Jul 04 16:24:20 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: hopefully that's enough

Jul 04 16:24:24 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: how many time do wa have to decide ?

Jul 04 16:24:27 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: to get the Macs

Jul 04 16:24:40 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: one week ?

Jul 04 16:24:51 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: until next meeting e.g. ?

Jul 04 16:25:00 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: that would be nice, yes

Jul 04 16:25:06 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: start time?

Jul 04 16:25:15 <ericb2> sunrayjogi: 14h Hamburg time

Jul 04 16:25:27 * ericb2 has changed the topic to: [English] OpenOffice.org Mac porting team channel. Next IRC Meeting:Wednesday 11th July 2007 (*12*:00 UTC) See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacOSXPortMeetings for the agenda. Previous meetings logs are available at http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Previous_Mac_Meeting_logs | http:// www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?keywords=aqua | http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_2007

Jul 04 16:25:48 <sunrayjogi> ericb2: ok,

Jul 04 16:26:05 <ericb2> bye all