Log Mac Meeting 2 March 2007

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[22:00] plipli ready for the meeting ?

[22:01] * mav_eric (n=mav_eric@xdsl-87-78-223-198.netcologne.de) has joined #ooo_macport

[22:01] ericb2 yes

[22:01] ericb2 let's go

[22:01] mav_eric hi

[22:02] shaunmcdonald plipli: what meeting? ;-)

[22:02] ericb2 Agenda for 2nd March 2007 meeting

[22:02] ericb2 1. Welcome new devs (if any)

[22:03] * shaunmcdonald doesn't think there are any new devs here

[22:04] shaunmcdonald 2. Notes from Eric Bachard about FOSDEM.

[22:04] ericb2 Just some words

[22:05] ericb2 First, OpenOffice.org project is not correctly represented

[22:05] ericb2 I mean the community

[22:06] shaunmcdonald ericb2: in what way is it not correctly represented?

[22:06] ericb2 all important projects where represented : Mozilla, .. etc, and a lot of people had questions

[22:07] ericb2 this is IMHO not a good idea to trust Novell for the answers. Just my opinion

[22:07] ericb2 or another company

[22:07] ericb2 another point :

[22:08] ericb2 people are seriously confused

[22:08] ericb2 between OopenOffice.org and NeoOffice

[22:08] ericb2 this is not normal at all

[22:09] shaunmcdonald ericb2: most users are confused about ooo and neo

[22:09] shaunmcdonald ericb2: there is different information coming from different places

[22:09] shaunmcdonald ericb2: some people are saying that neo is _the_ aqua version ooo

[22:10] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: yes, and this is a big problem

[22:10] shaunmcdonald ericb2: as far as an ordinary user is concerned, this is true

[22:10] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: no,

[22:10] ericb2 We are OpenOffice.org

[22:11] shaunmcdonald ericb2: end users are not worried about licensing and for them there is effectively no difference

[22:11] ericb2 if another project pretends be OpenOffice.org , this is a lie

[22:11] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: and we have to defend our identity

[22:12] shaunmcdonald ericb2: there is only a name change, and difference in usability/desktop integration, with both having pretty much the same functionality

[22:12] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: I disagree

[22:12] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: the name is essential

[22:13] shaunmcdonald ericb2: from an ordinary, non-computery user, what I have said is true

[22:13] * Fridrich (n=fridrich@195.167.203.62.cust.bluewin.ch) has joined #ooo_macport

[22:13] * ChanServ gives channel operator status to Fridrich

[22:14] plipli yes users don t worry about name, they only look at the product

[22:14] ericb2 plipli: so why continue ?

[22:15] ismael_ ericb2: because our version because of the developpement choices has some advantages that neooffice hasn't

[22:16] plipli i would like to understand what was the story with neooffice at the beginning...

[22:16] ismael_ ericb2: it 'is faster (C++ vs java)

[22:16] plipli is the system integration the same ?

[22:16] ismael_ ericb2: we have to continue because we haven't the same goals although the 2 projects are very similiar for end-users

[22:17] ismael_ ericb2: but not in a technological point of view

[22:17] plipli i agree

[22:17] plipli a java app will never be as fast as native app

[22:17] ericb2 the problem is this project is poisonning our project

[22:17] plipli completely

[22:18] ericb2 users are confused, and more

[22:18] ismael_ ericb2: there are two projects because developpers have 2 points of view, and the projects reflects the point of view of their developers

[22:18] plipli users, helpers and contributor don t see why they should help us, why we need to do tha

[22:18] * shaunmcdonald sees that the neo folk are linking to us, though marketing us as "for those comfortable with unix" http:// neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/Main_Page

[22:19] mav_eric plipli: to understand what happend in the past you have to dig deep in the archives of the old porting mailinglist

[22:19] shaunmcdonald plipli: there is a history available at http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/ History_of_NeoOffice_and_OpenOffice.org:_Introduction

[22:19] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: this is Neo version

[22:19] mav_eric plipli: basicly neo folks didn't do any basic porting stuff. They took the ported code and made it look fancy

[22:19] ismael_ ericb2: there's also ooo version on the ooo wiki

[22:19] plipli is neooffice code open source ?

[22:20] ismael_ GPL

[22:20] ericb2 ismael_: no, I don't think so

[22:20] shaunmcdonald sky

[22:20] mav_eric and all because Patrick Luby and Sun once disagreed and seperated their ways etc pp

[22:20] ismael_ ericb2: for GPL or wiki?

[22:20] ericb2 ismael_: wiki

[22:21] ismael_ ericb2: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_contributions_from_NeoOffice

[22:21] shaunmcdonald http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/FAQ_Openoffice.org_and_NeoOffice

[22:21] ericb2 ismael_: this is Mox non-objective work

[22:21] ericb2 ismael_: and oriented

[22:21] ericb2 ismael_: more you try to explain, more people will troll

[22:22] ismael_ ericb2: but that's another point of view, which is maybe different from neoOffcie

[22:22] ericb2 ismael_: no, Mox is friend of Neo people

[22:22] ericb2 I think the best is concentrate us on technical part

[22:23] ericb2 there is a very good team here

[22:23] ericb2 doing very good work. So let's continue !

[22:25] ericb2 what I retain from FOSDEM :

[22:25] ericb2 we should prepare the OOoCon2007 starting now :)

[22:26] shaunmcdonald ericb2: It is in Barcelona this year

[22:27] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: yes

[22:27] * shaunmcdonald will be there if nothing comes up to prevent him getting there

[22:27] * Fridrich (n=fridrich@195.167.203.62.cust.bluewin.ch) has left #ooo_macport

[22:27] ericb2 and we have to define a plan, to be as much as possible present in Barcelona

[22:28] ericb2 find money for travel, cheap rooms

[22:28] shaunmcdonald ericb2: will you be doing another presentation this year, of our progress?

[22:29] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: yes, that's what I had in mind. Just crossing the fingers ;)

[22:30] ericb2 FYI, I can explain how presentatins are selected

[22:31] ericb2 all people interested to do a talk must provide the content before a deadline, and a committee sort them proposal, and define an agenda

[22:31] ericb2 s/them/their/

[22:31] mav_eric so we have to make it as interesting as possibel for both normal audience and especially devs

[22:31] shaunmcdonald ericb2: I doubt we would be turned down for the presentation, with the amount of progress that we have done recently

[22:32] shaunmcdonald mav_eric: or we could have two presentations ;-)

[22:32] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: or a Topic ?

[22:32] shaunmcdonald mav_eric: one for devs and one for users

[22:32] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: everything is question of preparation

[22:32] mav_eric shaunmcdonald: i knew what you meant with two :-)

[22:33] shaunmcdonald mav_eric: it was just in case someone else didn't ;-)

[22:33] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: generally, they are Marketing, Documentation, NLC , dev and users topics

[22:33] mav_eric ericb2: so we basicly need quality presentations for two subjects

[22:33] mav_eric ericb2: one presentation that speaks to the end-user and one presentation that speaks to the devs

[22:34] ericb2 mav_eric: yes, and be supported by people in the committee, for the selection

[22:34] mav_eric ericb2: yep

[22:35] * ericb2 suggests people to be volunteers ( subscribe on OOoCon ml to be aware )

[22:35] ericb2 Next point ?

[22:35] ericb2 3. Latest Aqua news

[22:36] ericb2 plipli: ?

[22:36] plipli yes

[22:36] ericb2 plipli: what has changed since last week ?  :)

[22:38] * mprove has quit ()

[22:38] * cloph_away is now known as cloph

[22:38] plipli I have replaced offscreen bitmap context with CGLayer

[22:38] plipli progressing but not finished

[22:39] * mprove (n=mprove@p83.129.174.221.tisdip.tiscali.de) has joined #ooo_macport

[22:39] ericb2 plipli: this is a great work , thank you !

[22:39] ericb2 plipli: did you progress with salatslayout ?

[22:40] plipli ericb2: no salatslayout is satisfying from my point of view until i have clean refresh

[22:40] ericb2 plipli: ok

[22:40] plipli i have correct carret, fonts,

[22:40] plipli multiline

[22:41] ericb2 plipli: maybe I have not up to date code

[22:41] plipli I still have the probleme of square instead of font template but now they are above font name in listbox...weird

[22:42] mav_eric ericb2: the patch for carrre my have arrived after you leaving for FOSDEM

[22:42] plipli I ll have to synchronize to get latest commit with : cursor, invert etC...

[22:42] ericb2 plipli: we have to trace font issues : Michel Renon is working on that if I remember corectly

[22:42] mav_eric ericb2: my latest build has all the patches that were available last tuesday plus native file picker so even I may missing patches from plipli

[22:42] plipli at one moment I ha text typing directly and cursor navigating with keyboard nicely !

[22:43] ericb2 plipli: great

[22:43] plipli but i couldn t reproduce the right code patch combination

[22:43] ericb2 plipli: you are not far :-

[22:43] ericb2 :-)

[22:43] ericb2 ismael_: I know you did big progress too with the Invert() part I didn't complete SAL_INVERT_TRACKFRAME

[22:43] plipli yes but i repeat without clean refresh i can t progress

[22:44] plipli that s why i digged into cglayer and draw refresh issue

[22:44] ismael_ ericb2: yes i did

[22:44] ericb2 ismael_: do you have some patch to test ?

[22:44] ismael_ ericb2: but damien and me have to complete drawalpharect

[22:45] ericb2 ismael_: I'll be on hollidays starting tomorrow, and I'd be interested to take it ( no Internet in Alps )

[22:45] ismael_ ericb2: i will sync with damien and i 'll provide patch to test

[22:45] ericb2 ismael_: ok, thanks : just send a mail at mac@porting list

[22:45] ericb2 All have probably seen the native filepicker now works as expected

[22:46] ismael_ ericb2: concerning invert, do i put eveything in the patch or only what you haven't done?

[22:46] ericb2 ismael_: we can do in two steps, ot you all in one ?

[22:46] ismael_ ok

[22:46] ericb2 ismael_: s/ot/or/

[22:47] ericb2 ismael_: it is up to you

[22:47] ismael_ ericb2: ok, i will see

[22:47] ericb2 from my side, I continued with HIVIew

[22:47] ericb2 and salframe understanding

[22:47] ericb2 I did some preogress, and tested a lot of possibilities, but I'm not yet done

[22:48] Moxed everyone: does your builds show correctly sized customize toolbar dialog? i.e. when you click on the end of the toolbar and then select from the menu "Customize...". On my small screen (1024*768) the dialog is bigger than screen --> cannot resize

[22:48] ericb2 part of my code is here :

[22:48] ericb2 http://paste.lisp.org/display/37619#1

[22:48] ericb2 tis is not complete code

[22:48] ericb2 this

[22:49] plipli ericb2: you MUST succeed with HIView or i ll do it :-) We need fast window and refresh.......:-)

[22:49] ericb2 HIView needs kEventControlDraw to work

[22:49] ericb2 plipli: I'll try, but I'm not as good as you :)

[22:50] plipli ;-)

[22:50] Moxed ericb2: if you can get that HIView working, then Quicktime player is easy to implement

[22:50] ericb2 plipli: but something let me think I'm close

[22:50] mav_eric Moxed: aqua or X11 version?

[22:50] plipli ericb2: we have to contact dephilippis assoon as possible

[22:50] ericb2 Moxed: would be great

[22:50] ericb2 plipli: I think he will maybe come soon on the channel. He sometimes does

[22:51] Moxed mav_eric: aqua only. AFAIK Apple only provides Aqua API for Quicktime

[22:51] mav_eric Moxed: no I meant your dialog problem ;-)

[22:51] Moxed Aqua

[22:51] >plipli< Pierre travaille a Cupertino maintenant  ;)

[22:53] Moxed I guess one of the problems is that the menus have too big empty spaces between the entries (native menus)

[22:54] ericb2 Moxed: I agree

[22:54] ericb2 Moxed: Martin Hollmichel is back from hollidays BTW

[22:54] ericb2 Moxed: can you please ask him about NeoLight ?

[22:54] ericb2 mav_eric: or did you ?

[22:54] ericb2 already

[22:55] mav_eric ericb2: no I didn't catch him. I was ill for ten days

[22:55] Moxed ericb2: I would prefer other people asking as was agreed before. I already gave all the needed information.

[22:55] mav_eric mikesic mmeeks Moxed mprove

[22:55] ericb2 Moxed: so Eric will ask, or me , no problem

[22:56] ericb2 Moxed: should be an external project

[22:56] Moxed ericb2: note that we don't need new module for it. Just directory under external -module, would be fine.

[22:57] ericb2 Moxed: I see you have understood the problem to create new module. I already tested with fondu

[22:58] * mprove has quit ()

[22:58] Moxed btw. I've been creating a ooo wiki page to get common understanding about the Aqua HIG issues: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/ wiki/Platform_UI_Differences

[22:58] ericb2 Moxed: thank you

[22:58] ericb2 Moxed: very good idea

[23:00] ericb2 another important Aqua news is Pavel work :

[23:00] ericb2 not sure : issue 74947

[23:00] IZBot porting FEATURE STARTED Add Mac OS X specific backend for system proxy configuration http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/ show_bug.cgi?id=74947

[23:01] ericb2 and I invite people to test !

[23:01] Moxed I tested already :)

[23:01] ericb2 Moxed: good, and ?

[23:01] Moxed it works.

[23:02] * shaunmcdonald wonders if it copes with a change in location while ooo is running

[23:02] * shaunmcdonald wonders how often ooo uses a direct connection to the internet

[23:03] ericb2 Moxed: can you be more precise ? I'm not sure to completely understand this change, and maybe other here

[23:03] Moxed shaun: the ooo framework has support for updating the settings, I do not know if Pavel has implemented it on the mac side

[23:03] * shaunmcdonald remembers about remote databases

[23:05] Moxed ericb2: when you apply that change, your internet settings in OOo will be matched with Mac. So OOo's Tools > Options... > Internet > Proxies will be set to the same as Mac's System Preferences > network > your-active-device > Proxy settings

[23:05] ericb2 Moxed: this is very interesting. Thanks

[23:06] ericb2 Other Aqua changes ?

[23:07] ericb2 Next point ?

[23:08] ericb2 4. 2.2 release and QA status

[23:08] ericb2 Where are we ?  :-

[23:08] ericb2 :-)

[23:08] ericb2 rc18 ?

[23:09] mav_eric not quite but rc3 is due to be out in the next few hours/days if not already out

[23:09] mav_eric german community currently does release sanity tests for LinuxPPC, Mac OS X PPC and Mac OS X Intel

[23:09] ericb2 mav_eric: I know my Linux PowerPC are close to succesfully pass QA

[23:10] ericb2 ( I'm OffTopic, I know )

[23:10] mav_eric ericb2: indeed. Thank you for the build

[23:10] ericb2 mav_eric: to be honest, I'm surprised :)

[23:10] mav_eric I'll go and take the first results of german QA Testing over the weekend and see if we have found some serious issues

[23:11] shaunmcdonald http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Press_release_2.2

[23:11] shaunmcdonald we need to check to see if it is up to date for us

[23:11] mav_eric next release meeting will be on monday. I think after the meeting we will know more

[23:11] shaunmcdonald I think that we need to add that Java 1.5 is required

[23:12] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: I don't see macosxmapfiles cws but I probably read to fast

[23:12] shaunmcdonald and that many bugs such as the PPT export that were fixed in macosxmapfiles were fixed

[23:12] shaunmcdonald ericb2: we shouldn't go into the detail of "CWS macosxmapfiles fixed ...." as users don't care

[23:13] shaunmcdonald ericb2: though we do need to state the effect of the implementation of this CWS

[23:13] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: and add : "we reduced of 40MB the binary size" no ?

[23:13] shaunmcdonald ericb2: +1, but double check first

[23:13] mav_eric ericb2: this isn't a big think in times of broadband :-)

[23:14] shaunmcdonald ericb2: there might have been something else that changed the size

[23:14] shaunmcdonald since the last release

[23:14] * ericb2 remembers some people have limited download possibilities ;)

[23:14] shaunmcdonald mav_eric: the folk in other places with limited internet connections and limited disk space will be happy

[23:15] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: exactly

[23:15] shaunmcdonald ericb2: Vietnam is one place that has come up recently

[23:15] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: and they are more than we think

[23:15] mav_eric shaunmcdonald: right. I forgot about that

[23:15] ericb2 other infos about coming 2.2 ?

[23:16] ericb2 Misc questions ?

[23:17] shaunmcdonald ericb2: on the other extreme, I was recently talking to someone from a Denmark who had grown up with a very fast 100Mb connection 10 years ago, which is still faster than what I have today

[23:17] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: lucky man :)

[23:17] shaunmcdonald Chart2 is available for testing on the Mac

[23:18] shaunmcdonald ericb2: that's what I though when I heard from her

[23:18] plipli good night all

[23:18] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: yes and thank you very much for the build

[23:18] mav_eric good night plipli

[23:18] ericb2 plipli: good night

[23:18] * plipli has quit ()

[23:18] ericb2 There is a question I'd discuss

[23:19] ericb2 Python : continue to use system or not ? New extensions using Python 2.4 (maybe 2.5) wil be used.

[23:19] ericb2 the point is : new extension will come, and use Python 2.4 ( maybe 2.5)

[23:19] ericb2 *but*

[23:19] ericb2 Tiger is shipped with 2.3.5 only

[23:20] ericb2 and extensions won't be available, because default build does use System Python

[23:20] mav_eric ericb2: apple often patches bsd without upstagging the numbers

[23:20] ericb2 mav_eric: sure, but what if the version number is checked to dicide whether the extension can work or not ?

[23:21] ericb2 s/dicide/decide/

[23:21] mav_eric ericb2: that's the point

[23:21] shaunmcdonald ericb2: if we don't build with system python will it affect end users/size of download/Is python included in ooo?

[23:21] mav_eric ericb2: do we know what python leopard will bring along?

[23:21] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: yes it will

[23:21] mav_eric shaunmcdonald: yes python is included into OOo

[23:21] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: 12MB ( uncompressed )

[23:22] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: in the compressed archive, maybe a 3 or 4 MB excess

[23:22] shaunmcdonald ericb2: so we are already eating away our 40MB ;-)

[23:22] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: he he

[23:22] ericb2 My proposal :

[23:22] ericb2 return to internal Python as default

[23:23] ericb2 who disagree ?

[23:23] shaunmcdonald ericb2: is there an extension to test the functionality of Python 2.5 being installed?

[23:23] * shaunmcdonald is thinking about testing

[23:23] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: not yet, but maybe soon , because such extensions will be for 3.0

[23:24] * shaunmcdonald wonders when 3.0 will come along

[23:24] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: when ready :)

[23:24] * shaunmcdonald also wonders what will be special about 3.0 over 2.x

[23:24] mav_eric ericb2: so for 2.x we could stick with python 2.3.x because 3.0 is way into future

[23:24] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: Aqua, less bugs

[23:24] ericb2 :p

[23:24] ericb2 mav_eric: yes, we have time

[23:25] mav_eric and for 3.0 we surely need leopard :-)

[23:25] ericb2 mav_eric: I asked on Laurent Godard request

[23:25] mav_eric ericb2: o.k.

[23:25] * ericb2 will probably to find another ADC, to delagate somebody tfor Leopard build

[23:25] mav_eric ericb2: in fact it's no big deal to install python 2.4 or higher via MacPorts or fink or use OOo python

[23:26] ericb2 more correct: we will probably have to find another ADC, to delagate somebody tfor Leopard build

[23:26] ericb2 mav_eric: no, it is just a flag in configure time

[23:26] shaunmcdonald ericb2: I would if I had another machine ;-)

[23:27] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: I do my best for new machines, but I fear it will be difficult

[23:27] mav_eric ericb2: or setting your paths the right way. If I set the MacPorts before /usr/ I get MacPorts python when using --with-system- python

[23:27] ericb2 FYI, I'll try to find some funds to attend the WWDC

[23:27] mav_eric shaunmcdonald: so would I but I lack a second Mac too

[23:27] ericb2 this is very important for the project

[23:28] * shaunmcdonald Notes that http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/sys_reqs_20.html will be getting updated for 2.2

[23:28] * ericb2 thinks once top 10 will be fixed, we will receive more help

[23:28] * dave_largo has quit ("Client exiting")

[23:28] * shaunmcdonald need to check the requirement to send to marketing

[23:28] shaunmcdonald ericb2: +1

[23:28] mav_eric ericb2: yes fixing top ten is important for us

[23:28] shaunmcdonald Any mac that runs Mac OS X 10.4.x (Tiger)

[23:28] shaunmcdonald Mac OS X 10.4.8

[23:28] shaunmcdonald Java 1.5 (Simply run Software Update to install) [we hope to move back to Java 1.4 for ooo 2.3]

[23:28] shaunmcdonald X11 required; Use your install disks more full steps at ...

[23:29] * shaunmcdonald is proposing

[23:30] mav_eric 512MB of RAM (the more the better :-))

[23:30] shaunmcdonald mav_eric: and we will then have arguments with louis again :-(

[23:30] ericb2 machines are all shipped with 512MB now, but I'd suggest to put the exact same value as MS Office asks

[23:31] * shaunmcdonald remembers that louis thinks that you can run ooo on 256MB or less

[23:31] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: I think so too

[23:31] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: the most hungry is not OpenOffice.org, but MAc OS

[23:32] mav_eric shaunmcdonald: yes. but I don't know why. He is a mac user too and he should know that more RAM is better

[23:32] shaunmcdonald will state "512MB (even more is better)"

[23:33] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: ok, you discuss with Louis ?

[23:34] shaunmcdonald ericb2: if he complains

[23:34] ericb2 shaunmcdonald: ;)

[23:34] ericb2 Next meeting ?

[23:34] ismael_ good night

[23:34] shaunmcdonald ericb2: I'm working with John on the Marketing

[23:34] * ismael_ has quit ()

[23:34] ericb2 Next meeting is scheduled : Friday 9nd March 2007 21:00 UTC, 22:00 CET (Paris or Hamburg time).

[23:34] mav_eric ericb2: http://www.microsoft.com/mac/howtobuy.aspx?pid=sysreq

[23:35] shaunmcdonald ericb2: same time next week?

[23:35] mav_eric ericb2: the requiremnts for MSO. I think we won't be able to match 10.2.8

[23:35] mav_eric shaunmcdonald: ericb2 +1 for same time. same place next week

[23:35] ericb2 I won't be present , because ski :)

[23:35] * shaunmcdonald has changed the topic to: OpenOffice.org Mac porting team channel. Next IRC Meeting is scheduled Friday 9th March 2007 (21:00 UTC / 22:00 CET). See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacOSXPortMeetings#Next_Meeting for the agenda. All previous Mac port meetings logs are available at http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Previous_Mac_Meeting_logs | http://www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi? keywords=aqua

[23:36] mav_eric ericb2: holidays? wow!

[23:36] ericb2 mav_eric: yes, sometimes  :)