Log Mac Meeting 20 June 2007
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Jun 20 22:02:04 <paveljanik> Can we start the meeting now? ;-)
Jun 20 22:02:09 <paveljanik> hdu_home: welcome :-)
Jun 20 22:02:12 <ismael_> hi
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Jun 20 22:03:37 <paveljanik> shaunmcdonald: ping :-)
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Jun 20 22:03:58 <ismael_> hi
Jun 20 22:04:07 <ericb2> ismael_: Hi Ismael
Jun 20 22:04:07 <ismael_> sorry i had some problems with my IRC client
Jun 20 22:04:45 <ismael_> i didn't see any message although i was noticed there were some
Jun 20 22:06:09 <paveljanik> 1. Welcome new devs joining Mac OS X port
Jun 20 22:06:28 <paveljanik> 30 people here today! Some of them twice though 8)
Jun 20 22:07:57 * shaunmcdonald is back
Jun 20 22:08:04 <paveljanik> no new developers,OK.
Jun 20 22:08:10 <hdu_home> I'm not a new developer, just refurbished
Jun 20 22:08:21 <paveljanik> 8)
Jun 20 22:09:04 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: what improvements happened in the refurbishment ?
Jun 20 22:09:23 * ericb2 will reask for new developers. this is not normal
Jun 20 22:09:59 <hdu_home> text, pdf export, fonts, general bugfixes, input handling...
Jun 20 22:10:22 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: so you've learned a lot?
Jun 20 22:10:52 <shaunmcdonald> 2. Latest Aqua news / Work in progress
Jun 20 22:11:16 <hdu_home> shaunmcdonald: yes, I'm learning something new every day => soon Cocoa and CoreText
Jun 20 22:11:37 <shaunmcdonald> is CoreText in 10.4?
Jun 20 22:11:57 <paveljanik> yes, but without headers 8)
Jun 20 22:12:08 <hdu_home> shaunmcdonald: not even 100% in 10.5 but its on my radar...
Jun 20 22:12:36 <shaunmcdonald> interesting, why no headers?
Jun 20 22:12:42 <PhilippL> work in progress: XOR implementation
Jun 20 22:12:55 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: probably they were not ready yet
Jun 20 22:13:25 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: ok
Jun 20 22:13:58 <PhilippL> for XOR I'll need to add basebmp project
Jun 20 22:14:18 <paveljanik> PhilippL: 8)
Jun 20 22:14:45 <paveljanik> PhilippL: if there is an issue and thorsten verifies the issue, I feel happy :-)
Jun 20 22:14:58 <ericb2> paveljanik: thorsten proposed
Jun 20 22:15:13 <thorsten> I will.
Jun 20 22:15:20 <PhilippL> ok, that's settled then. There is one outstanding issue in presentation which we should be able to fix tomorrow.
Jun 20 22:15:40 <hdu_home> work in progress: advanced typographic fonts and their problems (like Zapfino or Apple Chancery)
Jun 20 22:15:52 * paveljanik is happy :-)
Jun 20 22:16:15 <PhilippL> news: focus rings for buttons implemented
Jun 20 22:16:37 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: 8-)
Jun 20 22:16:43 * ericb2 modified the changelog : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Ericb#Changelog
Jun 20 22:16:55 <ericb2> PhilippL: how does it work .. I'm not sure it works
Jun 20 22:17:34 <PhilippL> simple: there was no update of the display when the focus changed.
Jun 20 22:17:47 <PhilippL> so I changed that and the focus rings appeared :-)
Jun 20 22:18:09 <PhilippL> moreover the corresponding focus rects (from OOo) needed to be not drawn anymore.
Jun 20 22:18:17 <ericb2> PhilippL: I'm testing, and I don't understand what focus means : a blue rectangel aroung ?
Jun 20 22:18:19 <ericb2> around
Jun 20 22:18:28 <PhilippL> yes, exactly.
Jun 20 22:18:55 <ismael_> PhilippL: i have a similar issue for text edit and focus rect
Jun 20 22:19:20 <ericb2> PhilippL: I don't see it, but this is maybe because I'm using the window background patch too ?
Jun 20 22:19:22 <PhilippL> ismael_: we can do that as soon as we have NWF implemented for text edits
Jun 20 22:19:26 <ismael_> PhilippL: i'll ask you some questions, when my exams will be finished
Jun 20 22:20:04 <ismael_> PhilippL: because i haven't much time this week due to my exams
Jun 20 22:20:37 <PhilippL> ismael_: sure :-)
Jun 20 22:21:49 <ericb2> PhilippL: can you text with the background window patch please ? I really don't see focus rectangles
Jun 20 22:21:54 <ericb2> s/text/test/
Jun 20 22:21:58 <PhilippL> ericb2: will do
Jun 20 22:23:00 <ericb2> PhilippL: I agree, the awfull rectangle around text disappeared, but the external blue rectangle is not there
Jun 20 22:24:26 <PhilippL> hmm, as soon as I find that patch again :-(
Jun 20 22:24:42 <ericb2> PhilippL: I put it on my site, wait a minute
Jun 20 22:25:05 <ericb2> PhilippL: I added the helpers, sorry : http://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/patches/aquavcl01_june2007/ window_background/aqua_window_background.diff
Jun 20 22:27:00 <ericb2> .
Jun 20 22:27:40 <paveljanik> other news?
Jun 20 22:28:04 <ismael_> paveljanik: yes, i wrote a post on my blog to sum my progress
Jun 20 22:28:16 <ericb2> ismael_: great :)
Jun 20 22:28:16 <ismael_> with screensots
Jun 20 22:28:25 <ismael_> i progressed on tabs
Jun 20 22:28:31 <PhilippL> ericb2: works with window backgrounds, also :-)
Jun 20 22:28:43 <ericb2> PhilippL: ah ... :)
Jun 20 22:28:55 <ericb2> PhilippL: I'll retry later. Thanks
Jun 20 22:29:04 <ismael_> URL of my blog: http://lebasket.free.fr/blog/ or http://planet.go-oo.org/
Jun 20 22:29:12 * ericb2 has seen Omer Bar Or progress too
Jun 20 22:29:59 <ismael_> i started to add a macos x behaviour for tabs, i.e. one line of tabs=> tabs
Jun 20 22:30:03 <PhilippL> BTW: window backgrounds, I think we can commit that (of course, I'll create an issue, too )
Jun 20 22:30:22 <ismael_> several lines of tabs=>listbox/popup menu instead of tabs
Jun 20 22:30:42 <ericb2> ismael_: btw, version is 1 in Tab* things
Jun 20 22:31:00 <ismael_> ericb2: yes that's what i use see my screenshot
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Jun 20 22:32:13 <ericb2> ismael_: FYI, David McLeod seems to pbe the good person for HIToolbox and HITheme
Jun 20 22:32:29 <ismael_> ericb2: ok
Jun 20 22:33:31 <ericb2> ismael_: I think you should commit what you wrote for tabs
Jun 20 22:33:38 <ericb2> ismael_: looks ok for me
Jun 20 22:34:08 <ismael_> ericb2: for tabs but not for tabs replaced by listboxes when there are several lines of tabs
Jun 20 22:34:09 <PhilippL> ismael_: as long as it doesn't change the other platforms yet ;-)
Jun 20 22:34:29 <PhilippL> ismael_: That change should be done there, too, but we should discuss that with ux first
Jun 20 22:35:13 <ismael_> because the code for having listboxes instead of tabs when there are multiple lines of tabs, is very instable and can touch the other platforms as it is in the platform independent part
Jun 20 22:35:27 <PhilippL> yes, exactly.
Jun 20 22:35:55 <ismael_> so i can commit this point of my work 
Jun 20 22:36:02 <ericb2> ismael_: we discussed another solution with John Geleynse : instead of several lines of tabs, one of the tab (on right) is a
button, able to grow and how missing tabs
Jun 20 22:36:21 <ismael_> ericb2: but it's not really aqua
Jun 20 22:36:24 <PhilippL> ismael_: sure, please commit that.
Jun 20 22:36:38 <ericb2> ismael_: this is what Apple engineers suggested
Jun 20 22:36:43 <ismael_> PhilippL: i'll do it after friday, once my exams will be finished
Jun 20 22:36:50 <PhilippL> ismael_: great !
Jun 20 22:37:00 <ericb2> ismael_: some triangle on right -> click on it and we see other
Jun 20 22:37:00 <ismael_> ericb2: ok, if it's the case
Jun 20 22:37:15 <PhilippL> ismael_: and by the way: best of luck for your exams (not that you need it of course)
Jun 20 22:37:30 <ismael_> PhilippL: thanks
Jun 20 22:37:37 <shaunmcdonald> ismael_: I have seen several apps done the way that ericb2 suggests
Jun 20 22:37:44 <PhilippL> ismael_: for the dropdown you can have a look at the toolbars, they do something similar.
Jun 20 22:37:50 <tinor_> 'g night fellows
Jun 20 22:37:54 >ismael_< : pareil pour moi ;)
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Jun 20 22:38:57 <ismael_> i started the listbox method as you can see on the screenshots, so i think i will continue my experimentations
Jun 20 22:39:13 <ismael_> and see what i'll get
Jun 20 22:41:21 <ismael_> ericb2: concerning your blog post "WWDC part 2" answers to question "4/ was HIThemeTabDrawInfo question ( or Ismael )", i would like to add some informations concerning the statement "Pb displaying the tabs : we have to ask in common part which tab is the first one, and which one is the last one, to paint borders properly.
Jun 20 22:41:21 <ismael_> Todo : add code in common part + implement"
Jun 20 22:42:23 <ismael_> ericb2: we can know from the common part of VCL, if the tab is the first of the line or the last, when there is only one line or several lines
Jun 20 22:42:46 <ericb2> ismael_: yes, this is the idea
Jun 20 22:42:59 <ismael_> ericb2: that's what i use in my code to draw middle tabs or left tabs or right tabs
Jun 20 22:43:05 <ericb2> ismael_: the problem is , i you don't test, midle tab is drawn, and the border is missing
Jun 20 22:43:07 <PhilippL> ismael_: I think that's easy to add by putting it into theTabItemValue that gets passed to drawNativeControl
Jun 20 22:43:25 <ismael_> PhilippL: ericb2 : it's already done
Jun 20 22:43:31 <ericb2> ismael_: good :)
Jun 20 22:43:37 <ismael_> common part of VCL already gives this information
Jun 20 22:43:46 <ismael_> with four different flags
Jun 20 22:44:10 <ismael_> TabitemValue *aTabValue=(TabitemValue *) aValue.getOptionalVal();
Jun 20 22:44:10 <ismael_> unsigned int nAlignement=aTabValue->mnAlignment;
Jun 20 22:44:10 <ismael_> //TABITEM_LEFTALIGNED (and TABITEM_RIGHTALIGNED) when there are several lines of tabs
Jun 20 22:44:10 <ismael_> //because there is only one first tab and one last tab
Jun 20 22:44:11 <ismael_> //and TABITEM_FIRST_IN_GROUP (and TABITEM_LAST_IN_GROUP) because when the line width
Jun 20 22:44:11 <ismael_> //is different from window width, there may not be TABITEM_RIGHTALIGNED
Jun 20 22:44:12 <ismael_> if((nAlignement & TABITEM_LEFTALIGNED)||(nAlignement & TABITEM_FIRST_IN_GROUP))
Jun 20 22:44:14 <ismael_> aTabItemDrawInfo.position=kHIThemeTabPositionFirst;
Jun 20 22:44:16 <ismael_> else if((nAlignement & TABITEM_RIGHTALIGNED)||(nAlignement & TABITEM_LAST_IN_GROUP))
Jun 20 22:44:18 <ismael_> aTabItemDrawInfo.position=kHIThemeTabPositionLast;
Jun 20 22:44:21 <PhilippL> ismael_: oh, sorry, I didn't notice. but on the screenshots one can already see the right border, so that should have been clear.
Jun 20 22:44:59 <ismael_> PhilippL: two tabs are separated by a border, it's normal
Jun 20 22:45:25 <PhilippL> ismael_: yes, sorry for my noise.
Jun 20 22:45:53 <ismael_> PhilippL: i have only one bug (i think), when the last tab (the bottom rightmost one) is selected, it is drawn as a middle tabs
Jun 20 22:46:42 <ericb2> ismael_: bad count ?
Jun 20 22:46:50 <ericb2> ismael_: wrong index, or so ?
Jun 20 22:46:52 <ismael_> ericb2: i don't know why
Jun 20 22:47:25 <ismael_> it may come from the technic used to know if the tab is the rightmost tab
Jun 20 22:47:36 <ismael_> which is a bit dirty
Jun 20 22:48:11 <ismael_> if the right position of the tab is greater than a certain value, then the tab is considered as rightmost
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Jun 20 22:48:42 <ismael_> which is IMHO not a clean way to do so
Jun 20 22:49:22 <ismael_> the code for tabs seems to be very old, and IMHO need a cleanup
Jun 20 22:49:51 <ismael_> there are some if(1) {...} or #if 0 in the code
Jun 20 22:51:35 <ericb2> ismael_: :)
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Jun 20 22:52:20 <paveljanik> PhilippL: do you have any idea when to send mouseleave?
Jun 20 22:52:57 <PhilippL> paveljanik: I experimented with tracking areas but so far I don't get an event for them yet.
Jun 20 22:53:10 <paveljanik> maybe HIViewNewTrackingArea defining a tracking area of every window and then handling kEventMouseEntered and kEventMouseLeave?
Jun 20 22:53:13 <PhilippL> paveljanik: probably because the ciew is not visible ?
Jun 20 22:53:39 <PhilippL> paveljanik: yes, but I don't get those two events yet.
Jun 20 22:53:45 <paveljanik> PhilippL: yup, I debugged all events now and nothing is send when you leave the window 8)
Jun 20 22:53:56 <paveljanik> PhilippL: ok, you are much faster than me 8)
Jun 20 22:54:28 <PhilippL> paveljanik: nah, also I'm not sure if it is correct to register for events of a view on the window.
Jun 20 22:54:54 <ismael_> good night
Jun 20 22:55:01 <PhilippL> ismael_: bye
Jun 20 22:55:04 <ericb2> ismael_: good night
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Jun 20 22:56:44 <paveljanik> ok
Jun 20 22:56:57 <paveljanik> next point?
Jun 20 22:57:15 <shaunmcdonald> 3. Start aquavcl01 cws integration (part2)
Jun 20 22:57:21 <ericb2> paveljanik: no, please wait a minute
Jun 20 22:57:51 <ericb2> PhilippL: what are the plans currently : do you have a todo list, or something precise writtent somewhere ?
Jun 20 22:58:17 <PhilippL> ericb2: erm, plans for what exactly ? The Cocoa switch ?
Jun 20 22:58:43 <ericb2> PhilippL: not exactly ; first for aqua
Jun 20 22:58:59 <ericb2> ybart , ybart2 ping ?
Jun 20 22:59:10 <ybart2> ericb2: hi
Jun 20 22:59:26 <ericb2> ybart2: Hi Yvan. Whare are you with printing ?
Jun 20 22:59:28 <PhilippL> ericb2: Hmm, I'm not quite sure what you mean ?
Jun 20 22:59:49 <ybart2> ericb2: Nothing more than last time, unfortunately
Jun 20 22:59:52 <ericb2> PhilippL: e.g. you are working on XOR. and then, what ..etc
Jun 20 23:00:18 <PhilippL> Oh, after XOR and focus rings I wante to start on printing together with ybart.
Jun 20 23:00:19 <ericb2> ybart2: I ask because printing becomes urgent, and maybe Philipp could start. The problem is the integration delay
Jun 20 23:01:01 <ericb2> ybart2: if something is done in june / middel july, the integration is maybe early september
Jun 20 23:01:02 <ybart2> ericb2: No problem, I can always provide advice, even if I can't do real work
Jun 20 23:02:12 >ybart2< : on souhaite que ca marche pour debut septembre
Jun 20 23:02:45 <PhilippL> ericb2: It wouldn't need necessarily that long.
Jun 20 23:02:58 <paveljanik> ... when done correctly...
Jun 20 23:03:21 <PhilippL> ericb2: also, work doesn't need to stop at that. We can have aquavcl02 and join the difference of aquavcl01, even while aquavcl01 is in QA
Jun 20 23:04:36 <PhilippL> This is surely part of "3. Start aquavcl01 cws integration (part2)" after all ?
Jun 20 23:05:39 <ericb2> PhilippL: if everything goeds fine, aquavcl01 integration is july IMHO
Jun 20 23:05:53 <PhilippL> ericb2: yes, probably.
Jun 20 23:05:56 <paveljanik> This is also my goal.
Jun 20 23:06:00 <paveljanik> I want to have it in 2.3.
Jun 20 23:06:39 <ericb2> PhilippL: and the correct option (IMHO), is to start before
Jun 20 23:06:56 <ericb2> PhilippL: and create the cws once aqauvcl01 is close to be at final point
Jun 20 23:07:05 <PhilippL> So when do we consider aquavcl01 as "ready for QA" ? After printing is in ?
Jun 20 23:07:22 <paveljanik> PhilippL: I wouldn't take it feature-wise...
Jun 20 23:07:27 <paveljanik> but quality-wise...
Jun 20 23:07:38 <PhilippL> paveljanik: And that means ? :-)
Jun 20 23:07:46 <ericb2> PhilippL: + Drag and drop
Jun 20 23:08:04 <paveljanik> I think it is RfQ once it builds and doesn't affect other platforms and is acceptable for integration 8)
Jun 20 23:08:14 <paveljanik> and features do not matter.
Jun 20 23:08:22 <paveljanik> It doesn't matter if printing is in 01 or 02...
Jun 20 23:08:30 <PhilippL> paveljanik: That is basically the case now, isn't it ? ;-)
Jun 20 23:08:35 <paveljanik> PhilippL: yes.
Jun 20 23:08:35 <shaunmcdonald> features can easily come later
Jun 20 23:08:48 <johanhenselmans> People can live without drag and drop, but not without printing. Integrating printing would be a huge thing. Then people start noticing
Jun 20 23:08:50 <paveljanik> I'd like to see people working on stabilization of changes, reviewing etc...
Jun 20 23:08:51 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: Drag and Drop and printing looks reasonable for OOoCon
Jun 20 23:09:09 <ericb2> paveljanik: once Printing and drag and drop, yes
Jun 20 23:09:13 <paveljanik> OK, again overexpectations...
Jun 20 23:09:32 <paveljanik> this is incompatible approach with our development model.
Jun 20 23:09:37 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: can't we do the cws aquavcl02 for ooocon?
Jun 20 23:09:45 <paveljanik> stabilize what we have and then build on it!
Jun 20 23:09:48 <ericb2> paveljanik: no, simply what is normal things for a Mac Application
Jun 20 23:09:51 <ybart2> PhilippL: As I have done some work on Aqua printing, I will be happy to share advice if you need to. I have some knowledge about Apple API, extending printing dialogs etc.
Jun 20 23:09:51 <paveljanik> sure we can!
Jun 20 23:10:08 <PhilippL> ybart2: that will be very welcome !
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Jun 20 23:10:45 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: get aquavcl01 integrated now so that there is minimal changes for the other oses and in one cws
Jun 20 23:10:48 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: I think so, but printing and drag and drop have priority before Cocoa transition
Jun 20 23:11:00 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: now is not possible
Jun 20 23:11:01 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: I agree
Jun 20 23:11:04 <paveljanik> ericb2: sure, but not now!
Jun 20 23:11:21 <ybart2> PhilippL: Feel free to ask any question about UI, technology or choices, I am often around and on IRC
Jun 20 23:11:25 <paveljanik> now our prio should be to get what we have now, in, into 2.3.
Jun 20 23:11:32 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: once month ago, we propose to provide a snapshot version. and this is not yet possible respecting our process
Jun 20 23:11:41 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: I agree the printing and drag and drop has a higher priority then cocoa
Jun 20 23:12:09 <ericb2> paveljanik: when is 2.3 ?
Jun 20 23:12:18 <paveljanik> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease23
Jun 20 23:12:33 <shaunmcdonald> when will aquafilepicker01 be ready for release?
Jun 20 23:12:45 <paveljanik> shaunmcdonald: this is brilliant example...
Jun 20 23:12:49 <ericb2> paveljanik: I really expect aquavcl01 in the pipe before september
Jun 20 23:13:05 <paveljanik> people know there is a crasher, and they simply feel OK to fix it later... :-(
Jun 20 23:13:12 <paveljanik> ericb2: in the pipe?
Jun 20 23:13:22 <ericb2> paveljanik: I mean the process
Jun 20 23:13:36 <paveljanik> ?
Jun 20 23:13:39 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: I'm expecting aquavcl02 to be ready for integration before ooocon2007
Jun 20 23:13:40 <paveljanik> integrated?
Jun 20 23:14:15 <ericb2> paveljanik: at least nominated, yes. This is "visual" expression for long process
Jun 20 23:14:35 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: aquavcl02 is not a priority for september IMHO
Jun 20 23:14:43 <paveljanik> nominated in september? I hope it will be *integrated* before August 02!!!
Jun 20 23:15:01 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: to avoid misunderstanding, aquavcl02 is for Cocoa transition, first try
Jun 20 23:15:03 <PhilippL> So as a compromise: we'll put in printing so it works reasonably, then I will concentrate on reviews ?
Jun 20 23:15:05 <paveljanik> because Aug 02 is code freeze!
Jun 20 23:15:08 <paveljanik> ericb2: naaah.
Jun 20 23:15:09 <ericb2> paveljanik: I'm all with you
Jun 20 23:15:11 <paveljanik> nonsense.
Jun 20 23:15:35 <ericb2> paveljanik: what is nonsense ?
Jun 20 23:15:52 <paveljanik> PhilippL: I'd rather see you working on the stabilization/fixes now that on the new super feature like printing.
Jun 20 23:16:02 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: aquavcl04 should be for the cocoa transition
Jun 20 23:16:04 <paveljanik> PhilippL: just to be sure we meet the code freeze with 01...
Jun 20 23:16:08 <PhilippL> paveljanik: Yes, as I said, a compromise :-)
Jun 20 23:16:16 <paveljanik> shaunmcdonald: no, aquavcl45 ;-
Jun 20 23:16:25 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: what is aquavcl02 ? this afternoon it was first Cocoa transition ..
Jun 20 23:16:27 <paveljanik> PhilippL: :-) OK.
Jun 20 23:16:38 <paveljanik> ericb2: no, it was NEVER cocoa transition...
Jun 20 23:17:15 <PhilippL> people: let us decide what to put in aquavcl02 when we have aquavcl01 RfQ
Jun 20 23:17:16 <paveljanik> it will be the second step on *your* goal to have printing and DND for OOoCon. Maybe for these two features only!
Jun 20 23:17:21 <paveljanik> yes.
Jun 20 23:17:50 <paveljanik> 01 is the most important thing now - imagine that we can have 2.3 right out of the box with the current functionality!
Jun 20 23:17:59 <paveljanik> it will be very easy to continue then!
Jun 20 23:18:03 <ericb2> paveljanik: sure
Jun 20 23:18:24 <ericb2> paveljanik: FYI, Oliver promised me obr5 resync with sal at the end of the week
Jun 20 23:18:33 <paveljanik> ericb2: great.
Jun 20 23:18:38 <ericb2> paveljanik: in salaquatox11 cws
Jun 20 23:19:01 <paveljanik> none took care about the integration before - lets start with it now...
Jun 20 23:19:14 <ericb2> paveljanik: not true. I ask since ... don't remember
Jun 20 23:19:19 <paveljanik> PhilippL: I'd like you to review vcl changes, because you'll do that anyway :-)
Jun 20 23:19:32 <PhilippL> paveljanik: certainly.
Jun 20 23:19:35 <paveljanik> ericb2: so your change is the last one to be cleaned up? ;-)
Jun 20 23:19:50 <ericb2> paveljanik: really ?
Jun 20 23:20:02 <paveljanik> ericb2: yes. modulo vcl.
Jun 20 23:20:10 <ericb2> paveljanik: ok, great
Jun 20 23:20:14 <paveljanik> but it doesn't matter now.
Jun 20 23:20:21 <paveljanik> Our goal is clear now, right?
Jun 20 23:20:55 <paveljanik> We have ~20 days. I think the QA will take the rest 8) And even with this, program management will try to kill us ;-)
Jun 20 23:21:31 <PhilippL> paveljanik: no, not really, as long as we don't change the other platforms.
Jun 20 23:21:34 <hdu_home> QA doesn't have automated testing ready for OSX as far as I know :-/
Jun 20 23:21:46 <ericb2> paveljanik: 20 days is not too much, indeed
Jun 20 23:21:57 <paveljanik> PhilippL: yes. But they will "suspect us, that we will". And this is the *right* approach from them!
Jun 20 23:22:08 <PhilippL> hdu_home: yes, but they can only start to develop that reasonably after aquavcl01 is in.
Jun 20 23:22:22 <paveljanik> and to minimize this, we should do critical changes outside of aquavcl01 to minimize the risk.
Jun 20 23:22:35 <paveljanik> PhilippL: or in X11...
Jun 20 23:22:36 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: are QA going to start automated testing of the mac like they do on other platforms?
Jun 20 23:22:38 <PhilippL> hdu_home: unless they want to do that in aquavcl01 also ...
Jun 20 23:23:04 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: as soon as they have the testtool running.
Jun 20 23:23:15 <paveljanik> PhilippL: no - we will veto it ;-)
Jun 20 23:23:31 <PhilippL> paveljanik: I thought so ;-)
Jun 20 23:23:34 <ericb2> PhilippL: and Macjogi btw ?
Jun 20 23:23:35 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: I thought testtool was already working on the mac, or do you mean in aqua?
Jun 20 23:23:43 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: in aqua.
Jun 20 23:24:02 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: could we use the X11 testtool to test aqua?
Jun 20 23:24:09 <PhilippL> ericb2: macjogi AFAIK will start to look at the version as soon as aquavcl01 is RfQ
Jun 20 23:24:19 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: possibly, but I don't know.
Jun 20 23:24:47 <PhilippL> ericb2: and inofficially he looks at our progress daily ;-)
Jun 20 23:25:08 <hdu_home> and he seemed quite happy with it :-)
Jun 20 23:25:20 <paveljanik> ... even without testtool running ;-)
Jun 20 23:25:32 <paveljanik> and we should reuse this "hurrah" effect :-)
Jun 20 23:25:34 <ericb2> testtooll wil need some hack, but maybe we could use TPT
Jun 20 23:25:40 <paveljanik> Hi macjogi reading the log ;-)
Jun 20 23:25:54 * shaunmcdonald thinks it is possible to use another platform and machine to do ooo automated qa on another machine
Jun 20 23:26:19 <ericb2> the problem with testtool is to run another binary into the bundle and TPT could help
Jun 20 23:26:35 <hdu_home> maybe we can do a compromise: testtool on all other platforms, code review aqua-independet changes, test-tooling aqua later
Jun 20 23:26:43 <PhilippL> ericb2: Hmm, for the uninitiated, what is TPT ?
Jun 20 23:26:51 * dave_largo has quit ("Client exiting")
Jun 20 23:27:01 <ericb2> PhilippL: process transform to foreground
Jun 20 23:27:09 <paveljanik> OK, other questions about integration?
Jun 20 23:27:22 <PhilippL> ericb2: Now I feel even less initiated :-)
Jun 20 23:27:48 <ericb2> PhilippL: this is a simple way to receive events, even if the binary does not respect the Bundle "law"
Jun 20 23:28:03 <PhilippL> ericb2: I will look it up.
Jun 20 23:28:04 <paveljanik> PhilippL: ;-) try to change Executable name in your testing bundle and try to get the app to foreground ;-)
Jun 20 23:28:13 <ericb2> PhilippL: e.g. when the binary does not have the same name as the one in info.plist
Jun 20 23:28:27 <PhilippL> paveljanik: yes, I noticed that. But I thought it was inevitable.
Jun 20 23:28:35 <paveljanik> but this is easily oslvable for testtool...
Jun 20 23:28:55 <paveljanik> maybe aquavcl03 or aquatesttool ;-)
Jun 20 23:29:01 <paveljanik> next point?
Jun 20 23:29:24 * shaunmcdonald finds that the last public snapshot has testtool.bin open ooo
Jun 20 23:29:33 <shaunmcdonald> 4. aquafilepicker01
Jun 20 23:29:55 <paveljanik> ok, the cws is still in RfQA, but it is not yet ready. There is a known crasher.
Jun 20 23:29:57 <paveljanik> :-(
Jun 20 23:30:19 <paveljanik> I think I found a solution to it and Florian should have a look at it.
Jun 20 23:30:25 <shaunmcdonald> paveljanik: what is the crasher?
Jun 20 23:30:26 <paveljanik> But otherwise it seems to be working well.
Jun 20 23:30:34 <paveljanik> shaunmcdonald: mmnt
Jun 20 23:30:56 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: instant crash when you click in Hyperlink on some button
Jun 20 23:31:22 <shaunmcdonald> not so good
Jun 20 23:31:34 <paveljanik> but I think the fix is oneliner...
Jun 20 23:31:44 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: something pending, undefined IMHO
Jun 20 23:31:46 <paveljanik> not initialized filter list.
Jun 20 23:32:00 <paveljanik> so I think it will be finished even sooner.
Jun 20 23:32:18 <paveljanik> for aquafilepicker02, the default activate on AQUA is needed.
Jun 20 23:32:27 * shaunmcdonald is too used to Java, which would give an exception rather than a crash
Jun 20 23:32:34 <paveljanik> After aquafilepicker01, the default is OOo dialogs.
Jun 20 23:32:40 <ericb2> paveljanik: I'll ask JoergB
Jun 20 23:33:06 <paveljanik> ericb2: OK, thanks. You can file an issue for it so we can track it.
Jun 20 23:33:23 <ericb2> paveljanik: ok, I'll do
Jun 20 23:33:37 <paveljanik> and aquafilepicker01 is secure - almost no changes that could affect other platforms. I think we can QA it ourselves.
Jun 20 23:34:21 <paveljanik> next point?
Jun 20 23:35:21 <shaunmcdonald> 5. OOoCon 2007 : Mac OS X port proposal
Jun 20 23:35:49 <ericb2> issue 78721
Jun 20 23:36:10 <IZBot> porting DEFECT NEW Set native File Picker as default on Mac OS X http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi? id=78721
Jun 20 23:37:32 <hdu_home> I submitted my talk proposal, but haven't heard back yet
Jun 20 23:37:57 <hdu_home> it looks like PhilippL and me will attend anyway
Jun 20 23:38:37 <PhilippL> Hopefully.
Jun 20 23:39:50 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: when did you submit?
Jun 20 23:40:07 <ericb2> who has something accepted ?
Jun 20 23:40:11 <hdu_home> shaunmcdonald: seven days too late
Jun 20 23:40:27 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: ah ok, that explains it
Jun 20 23:40:47 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: you might want to enquire on the conference marketing list
Jun 20 23:40:51 <hdu_home> AFAIK there are only four slots for late entries
Jun 20 23:41:15 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: they might be holding your for one of those slots
Jun 20 23:41:47 <ericb2> hdu_home: would be damage
Jun 20 23:41:56 <shaunmcdonald> hdu_home: unfortunately they haven't actually done a lightning talk session this year
Jun 20 23:42:02 <paveljanik> ... I forgot: another "interesting" task could be to start verification of issues added to aquavcl01 8)
Jun 20 23:42:06 <hdu_home> yeah, the topic is quite of general interest it seems
Jun 20 23:42:56 <hdu_home> paveljanik: theoretically verification of tasks only happens afrer readyforqa
Jun 20 23:43:30 <paveljanik> hdu_home: depends. Some people prefer to receive cws in RfQ with all issues already verified... Practice vs. rules...
Jun 20 23:43:37 * CerebrosuS has quit ("By an alle!")
Jun 20 23:44:32 * hdu_home is not known as a process fetishist anyway :-)
Jun 20 23:44:39 <paveljanik> but I'm optimistic.
Jun 20 23:45:57 <PhilippL> So is there a point left ?
Jun 20 23:45:57 <PhilippL> On the agenda I mean ?
Jun 20 23:45:57 <paveljanik> Misc? ;-)
Jun 20 23:45:57 <johanhenselmans> QA 2.2.1?
Jun 20 23:45:57 <paveljanik> who will try 10.4.10? ;-)
Jun 20 23:46:04 <ericb2> not me
Jun 20 23:46:07 <johanhenselmans> I am running it now. Nothing wrong with it.
Jun 20 23:46:14 <paveljanik> (yet) ;-)
Jun 20 23:47:03 <paveljanik> 2.2.1 QA seems to be dead, as we all prefer to work on aqua.
Jun 20 23:47:17 * shaunmcdonald doesn't have 10.4.10
Jun 20 23:47:25 <johanhenselmans> I have contacted the dutch language contact. We agreed that I would do the dutch QA of 2.2.1 X11. It seems there will be an extra version to be downloaded, with the english and german and french version.
Jun 20 23:47:32 <shaunmcdonald> paveljanik: your right about QA being dead
Jun 20 23:47:53 * PhilippL downloads the patch
Jun 20 23:48:05 <ericb2> nobody knows why QA is dead ?
Jun 20 23:48:07 <shaunmcdonald> we have already have had a request for the English 2.2.1, which hasn't been QA'ed yet
Jun 20 23:48:12 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: I do
Jun 20 23:48:25 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: James Mckenzie is no longer doing QA
Jun 20 23:48:34 * shaunmcdonald can only do QA on Intel
Jun 20 23:48:47 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: there is one Neo effect
Jun 20 23:48:55 <paveljanik> ?
Jun 20 23:49:04 * shaunmcdonald was thinking of doing a quick test of 2.2.1 Intel
Jun 20 23:49:07 <ericb2> paveljanik: people simply don't care X11 version
Jun 20 23:49:25 <ericb2> paveljanik: that's the simple reason why we have not enough people for QA
Jun 20 23:49:30 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: the reason that James is no longer doing QA is due to longer hours on his real job
Jun 20 23:49:48 <paveljanik> ericb2: I do care. I use it for my work. And yes, it is terrible.
Jun 20 23:49:49 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: I'm talking about several locales , e.g. de
Jun 20 23:49:51 <ericb2> fr
Jun 20 23:50:19 <johanhenselmans> I can run QA on powerpc for X11. I have a machine I could use for that.
Jun 20 23:50:27 <ericb2> paveljanik: I use it too, and that's not so terrible
Jun 20 23:50:48 * paveljanik is not afraid to tell the truth ;-)
Jun 20 23:50:56 * ericb2 either
Jun 20 23:51:09 * shaunmcdonald thinks ericb2 and paveljanik have differing opinions
Jun 20 23:51:20 * ericb2 concentrates on the content
Jun 20 23:51:21 * paveljanik thinks shaunmcdonald is right
Jun 20 23:51:40 <johanhenselmans> Should the qa's been done in the original system language? eg, french version in french OS?
Jun 20 23:51:52 <paveljanik> ericb2: which one? The one not displayed because the window was originally out of the screen? e.g.? Or on the second display? ;-)
Jun 20 23:51:58 <shaunmcdonald> is a quick sanity check for the en-US intel be ok?
Jun 20 23:52:09 <ericb2> paveljanik: not this effect for me
Jun 20 23:52:31 <ericb2> johanhenselmans: I remember you should QA your native locale
Jun 20 23:53:13 <johanhenselmans> OK, so no US-en nor DE-fr for me ;-)
Jun 20 23:53:42 <paveljanik> PhilippL: maybe the best strategy for QA of aquavcl01 would be to resync it to m216, where there are millions of other issues 8)
Jun 20 23:54:10 <ericb2> paveljanik: I have read it was not a great milestone
Jun 20 23:54:23 <PhilippL> paveljanik: don't mention it, I have vcl79 to think of which waits for m217 exactly for that reason ;-)
Jun 20 23:54:31 <paveljanik> 8)
Jun 20 23:54:32 <ericb2> excepted new iconset ( Tango inside )
Jun 20 23:55:01 <ericb2> PhilippL: will be vcl78 integrated in m217 ?
Jun 20 23:55:14 <PhilippL> ericb2: it is already in m216
Jun 20 23:55:18 <ericb2> PhilippL: would be great : special character will appear ^^
Jun 20 23:55:22 <ericb2> PhilippL: great
Jun 20 23:55:29 <shaunmcdonald> johanhenselmans: if you could test en-US on PPC that would be very useful
Jun 20 23:55:30 <hdu_home> :-)
Jun 20 23:56:11 <johanhenselmans> I'll pretend I am a redneck. I will cycle with Philpp, and start eating steaks ;-)
Jun 20 23:56:14 <paveljanik> ok, 5 minutes to midnight.
Jun 20 23:56:32 <PhilippL> johanhenselmans: you do the cycling, I do the steaks :-)
Jun 20 23:56:48 <ericb2> PhilippL: lol
Jun 20 23:56:56 <johanhenselmans> OK, I'll do the US PPC thing
Jun 20 23:57:31 <paveljanik> and I'll do my bed ;-)
Jun 20 23:57:48 <ericb2> what are next topics ?
Jun 20 23:58:25 <hdu_home> will there be another public release before aquavcl01 integratrion?
Jun 20 23:58:45 <ericb2> hdu_home: would be great : now it is usable, really
Jun 20 23:58:45 <PhilippL> I suggest not before RfQ
Jun 20 23:58:45 <shaunmcdonald> johanhenselmans: thanks
Jun 20 23:59:04 <hdu_home> I think people+reviewers would be surprised
Jun 20 23:59:14 * paveljanik hopes, no or if any, regular aquavcl01 snapshot after resyncing to mielstone with aquafilepicker01 and for QA only.
Jun 20 23:59:37 <ericb2> paveljanik: use the build for the QA :-)
Jun 20 23:59:53 <ericb2> paveljanik: we'll see quickly if something is wrong !
Jun 21 00:00:34 <paveljanik> ericb2: and than start working on fixing it, adding new features etc. Yes...
Jun 21 00:00:50 <paveljanik> and the integration will never happen.
Jun 21 00:00:50 <ericb2> paveljanik: no. this is a snapshot
Jun 21 00:01:06 <ericb2> paveljanik: we know it's not perfect
Jun 21 00:01:21 <paveljanik> a lot of metawork around it instead of real work...
Jun 21 00:01:41 <paveljanik> BTW - there is still an issue to create readme for the first alpha...
Jun 21 00:01:49 <ericb2> paveljanik: no, at all. I just proposed to save some time
Jun 21 00:01:53 <paveljanik> Please do not open this box again before me...
Jun 21 00:01:55 <shaunmcdonald> if we do release, we state that there will only be bugfixes in the interim, new features will come later
Jun 21 00:02:03 <ericb2> paveljanik: provide regular builds is extremely important
Jun 21 00:02:13 <paveljanik> this is something else!
Jun 21 00:02:13 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: bad idea
Jun 21 00:02:24 <paveljanik> regular builds and public releases...
Jun 21 00:02:24 <shaunmcdonald> paveljanik: the readme was put online
Jun 21 00:02:34 <paveljanik> shaunmcdonald: why the issue is not fixed/closed?
Jun 21 00:02:49 <shaunmcdonald> as part of the news release
Jun 21 00:02:50 * ericb2 wonders why simple things becoem so complicated. Because we are OopenOffice.org ?
Jun 21 00:03:19 <paveljanik> no, because we are subproject or porting project of OpenOffice.org.
Jun 21 00:03:19 * shaunmcdonald thinks the issue was forgotten about
Jun 21 00:03:27 <ericb2> paveljanik: and ?
Jun 21 00:03:52 * mikesic has quit ()
Jun 21 00:03:57 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: bureaucracy
Jun 21 00:04:06 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: think EU parliament ;-)
Jun 21 00:04:06 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: exactly
Jun 21 00:04:20 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: and I sometimes wonder if we really are a free software
Jun 21 00:04:54 <PhilippL> ericb2: It is not really that much easier to get something accepted into mozilla I hear.
Jun 21 00:04:55 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: maybe we shouldn't be such a large project
Jun 21 00:04:55 <paveljanik> ericb2: we are. You told me so today. And we are all volunteers, etc. etc...
Jun 21 00:05:16 * PhilippL volunteers to callit a day ;-)
Jun 21 00:05:20 <ericb2> paveljanik: I'm not volunterr for papers
Jun 21 00:05:21 <paveljanik> +1
Jun 21 00:05:36 <paveljanik> Good night and freedom to papers!
Jun 21 00:06:04 <PhilippL> I can understand that the integration process seems somehwat glacial.
Jun 21 00:06:05 <johanhenselmans> And I will continue in LaTeX. Still 2 bugs to fix....
Jun 21 00:06:06 <ericb2> from my side, I'll continue to provide unofficial builds people asking me
Jun 21 00:06:15 <PhilippL> However we won't solve that problem today.
Jun 21 00:07:02 <ericb2> Other point ?
Jun 21 00:07:27 <ericb2> WWDC news
Jun 21 00:07:36 <ericb2> ( Point 6 )
Jun 21 00:07:55 <ericb2> PhilippL: I think we reported the essential, on our respective blogs, don't we ?
Jun 21 00:08:11 <PhilippL> I think so.
Jun 21 00:08:42 <ericb2> questions ?
Jun 21 00:11:20 <PhilippL> It would seem not.
Jun 21 00:11:23 <johanhenselmans> I have an update scripts that automagically updates the source code from CVS, and then compiles the
resulting stuff. Any idea to put that next to extract vcl?
Jun 21 00:11:43 <johanhenselmans> Sorry, extract_aquavcl.sh
Jun 21 00:11:55 <ericb2> johanhenselmans: did you propose it on mac@porting ?
Jun 21 00:12:09 <PhilippL> johanhenselmans: sounds useful.
Jun 21 00:12:50 <johanhenselmans> No, I did it via IRC, I can send it to mac@porting, you can have a look at it. It's a combination of a few scripts. I'll send it to you.
Jun 21 00:13:39 <ericb2> johanhenselmans: yes, good idea
Jun 21 00:13:49 <johanhenselmans> Another point: versioning. I run now src680-m214-07-06-07 according to about.
Jun 21 00:14:02 <ericb2> johanhenselmans: better use mac@porting, thn all will read it
Jun 21 00:14:41 <ericb2> Next meeting, when ?
Jun 21 00:14:42 <johanhenselmans> But I have used my superduper script every day to update to the latest cvs. It still gives that version. How to get that fixed?
Jun 21 00:15:36 <ericb2> johanhenselmans: this is an option in configure command line ( if i understand what you mean )
Jun 21 00:15:58 <ericb2> johanhenselmans: --with-build-version=$OOVERSION-`date +%d-%m-%y` \
Jun 21 00:16:31 <johanhenselmans> So just a recompile of the updated things will not change that, and if one changes that, all the modules will be recompiled?
Jun 21 00:16:51 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: it's in the agenda
Jun 21 00:17:00 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: what is in the agenda ?
Jun 21 00:17:06 <shaunmcdonald> Wednesday 27th of June, 12:00 UTC / 14:00 CEST / 21:00 Japan
Jun 21 00:17:14 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: date of next meeting
Jun 21 00:17:23 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: in the afternoon next week
Jun 21 00:17:33 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: it isnt : currently I got 20th of june
Jun 21 00:17:49 <shaunmcdonald> . Date of Next Meeting : Wednesday 27th of June, 12:00 UTC / 14:00 CEST / 21:00 Japan
Jun 21 00:18:00 <shaunmcdonald> just before :Previous Meetings
Jun 21 00:18:25 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: what is this hour ?
Jun 21 00:19:29 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: +1 from me, but I don't know about japan ?
Jun 21 00:19:33 <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: it was discussed on mac@porting
Jun 21 00:19:40 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: evening for them
Jun 21 00:20:01 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: yes, if it suits them ...
Jun 21 00:20:03 <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: let's see
Jun 21 00:20:27 <shaunmcdonald> PhilippL: the time there is 21:00 rather than ~05:00
Jun 21 00:20:30 <ericb2> no problem for me, I'll probably be there
Jun 21 00:21:00 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: yes :-) I just haven't seen any answer if it is convenient for them at 9pm
Jun 21 00:21:37 * shaunmcdonald thought he had seen 1 half way positive mail about the time for those in Japan
Jun 21 00:22:03 <PhilippL> shaunmcdonald: yes, now i have found it, too.
Jun 21 00:23:22 * shaunmcdonald has changed the topic to: [English] OpenOffice.org Mac porting team channel. Next IRC Meeting:Wednesday 27th
June 2007 (*12*:00 UTC) See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MacOSXPortMeetings for the agenda. Previous meetings logs are available at
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Previous_Mac_Meeting_logs | http://www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?keywords=aqua | http://
wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_2007
Jun 21 00:24:35 * ericb2 modified : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Port_Meetings#Next_Meeting
Jun 21 00:25:54 <PhilippL> Anything left to be said ?
Jun 21 00:26:04 <ericb2> good night ?
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