Log Mac Meeting 18 May 2007

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[22:01] <CerebrosuS> 22 h -Berlin Time-

[22:01] <CerebrosuS> *smile*

[22:01] <paveljanik> ;-)

[22:02] <CerebrosuS> So i will start

[22:02] <CerebrosuS> i

[22:02] <CerebrosuS> i'm cerebrosus

[22:02] <CerebrosuS> can call me christian

[22:02] * Bi-noix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))

[22:03] <CerebrosuS> i'm a new developer and will try to support your ooo port to mac

[22:03] <CerebrosuS> at time i'm learning about the structure of vcl and how i works

[22:04] <CerebrosuS> so that's all this time, ... from my point

[22:04] <paveljanik> CerebrosuS: thanks and welcome :-)

[22:04] <CerebrosuS> thx

[22:05] <paveljanik> other developers?

[22:05] <paveljanik> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Port_Meetings#Next_Meeting

[22:06] <paveljanik> shaunmcdonald: ping?

[22:06] <CerebrosuS> and we learn from the ccc : just judge someone from the action he does and not from his look religion and nationality

[22:06] <ybart> CerebrosuS: welcome

[22:06] <paveljanik> ericb2: ping?

[22:06] <CerebrosuS> so no comment about that lol

[22:07] <CerebrosuS> thx ybart

[22:08] <ismael_> ChanServ:

[22:08] <ismael_> che

[22:08] <ismael_> CerebrosuS: welcome

[22:08] <CerebrosuS> thx

[22:08] <ismael_> (sorry for the completion problems)

[22:09] <ericb2> good evening

[22:09] <ericb2> sorry, I was doing other things :)

[22:10] <CerebrosuS> np

[22:11] <ericb2> CerebrosuS: have you Carbon / C++ knowledge ?

[22:12] <CerebrosuS> ;) no carbonat this, just learning about that, but qt, gtk, mfc and other interfaces so i hope it will be fast to get the knowledge

[22:12] <CerebrosuS> but c++ and ooo for round 9 years

[22:13] <ericb2> CerebrosuS: sure you will be fast

[22:13] <paveljanik> CerebrosuS: OOo for ~9 years? ;-)

[22:13] <CerebrosuS> java too, ... but i thought it won't be such important

[22:13] <CerebrosuS> oh sry

[22:13] <CerebrosuS> oop

[22:13] <CerebrosuS> lol

[22:13] <paveljanik> ;-)

[22:14] <ericb2> CerebrosuS: you'll be our Java guru ;)

[22:14] <CerebrosuS> o0

[22:14] <CerebrosuS> no one could prog in java?

[22:15] <ericb2> CerebrosuS: several Sunnies are able to prog in Java on the channel I guess ;)

[22:15] <CerebrosuS> ok hehe

[22:16] <CerebrosuS> it the best joice for oop so everyone should learn it ;)

[22:16] <ericb2> Other devs want to present themselves ?

[22:18] <CerebrosuS> no one? not so much

[22:19] <ericb2> Ok, Next point ?

[22:19] <CerebrosuS> last aqua new / work in progress

[22:20] * CerebrosuS is listening

[22:20] * ericb2 updated the changelog : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Ericb#Changelog

[22:21] <ericb2> With all the last progress we did, I declared Alpha 0.9 started

[22:21] <CerebrosuS> ok

[22:21] <ericb2> Current status of Top 10 of issues is : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:Ericb/Top10_of_Issues

[22:22] <ericb2> for issue 73688 , I think Herbert fixed it

[22:22] <IZBot> porting DEFECT NEW aquavcl01->use default system font instead of helvetica in aqua http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi? id=73688

[22:22] <mav_eric> looks impressive.

[22:22] <ericb2> he will confirm

[22:22] <CerebrosuS> sure

[22:23] <mav_eric> and we did a lot of progress since announcing top ten

[22:23] <ericb2> paveljanik: no recent Aqua news ?

[22:23] <ericb2> ismael_: ?

[22:24] <ismael_> ericb2: i haven't done a lot of things these last days

[22:24] <ismael_> ericb2: i read documentation about HIViews and HIobject for my GSOC

[22:25] <ismael_> i started coding a bit salnativewidget.cxx

[22:25] <mav_eric> ericb2: what about your latest patch that starts and helps us solves some important refreshing issues

[22:25] <paveljanik> no, IIRC not that I remember ;-)

[22:25] <ericb2> issue 77450

[22:25] <IZBot> porting DEFECT RESOLVED FIXED Add Aqua theme for Toolbars http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=77450

[22:26] <ericb2> now toolbars use Aqua theme

[22:26] <ericb2> issue 77451

[22:26] <IZBot> porting DEFECT NEW Add Aqua theme for Tooltips ( Apple name : " help tags") http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=77451

[22:26] <ericb2> I have tried to add tooltips, but I'm not arrived

[22:27] <ericb2> paveljanik: what about commit http://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/patches/salnativewidgets/may_2007/tooltips/ aqua_tooltips_first_try.diff

[22:27] <ericb2> paveljanik: after clean up ( remove delay too )

[22:30] <ericb2> Lastly, I have found something - IMHO - very interesting for the refresh

[22:30] <ericb2> See : http://porting.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=mac&msgNo=5361

[22:32] <CerebrosuS> did i understand ist right that the sal classes is the interface between the port and application?

[22:32] <CerebrosuS> -s

[22:32] <CerebrosuS> s/is/are/

[22:32] <CerebrosuS> hmpf

[22:33] <ericb2> did somebody test my code ?

[22:33] <mav_eric> ericb2: yes. I played a bit with the OOo that contained your code and I was able to really use the aqua version for the first time

[22:34] <ericb2> mav_eric: good :)

[22:34] <mav_eric> ericb2: I experienced no crashes while doing some smal editings on my application etc

[22:34] <paveljanik> ericb2: yup, I'll have a look at all patches hopefully during weekend.

[22:34] <mav_eric> ericb2: in general Aqua OOo is much more stable now then it was back when I tested it the last - that was m208 I think

[22:34] <ericb2> paveljanik: thanks :)

[22:34] <ybart> ericb2: However, we have crashes in applications such as Base...

[22:35] <ybart> ericb2: But it's not related to your specific changes IMHO

[22:35] <ericb2> ybart I didn't test Base.

[22:35] <mav_eric> ybart: that's right. But I only worked with Writer and opened a spreadshet and an presentation

[22:35] <ericb2> ybart I know Impress has a problem with Text (not diplayed)

[22:35] <ybart> ericb2: We should have a look there sooner or later...

[22:35] <mav_eric> ybart: I didn't try base

[22:36] <ericb2> ybart refresh, fonts and missing methods/functions first

[22:36] <ybart> ericb2: Of course

[22:36] <paveljanik> BTW - I have added aqua builds to my regular uploads, because many people here in CZ asked me for them.

[22:37] <ericb2> mikesic wanted to propose something for the missing methods

[22:37] <paveljanik> http://ftp.linux.cz/pub/localization/OpenOffice.org/devel/AQUA/SRC680_m211/Build-1/

[22:37] <ericb2> paveljanik: means we start to provide pre-alpha ?

[22:37] <paveljanik> if we want to ;-)

[22:38] <ybart> Yaeah ! Great news...

[22:38] <paveljanik> better not hide where we are...

[22:38] <mav_eric> maybe we should start versioning with 0.0.1 ;-)

[22:38] <ybart> :-P

[22:38] <ericb2> paveljanik: I think we can just provide pre-alpha, without announce them

[22:38] <mav_eric> ericb2: they will get discovered sooner or later

[22:38] <ismael_> ericb2: and announce when we'll have an alpha

[22:39] <mav_eric> what won't be that far into future since we're already at alpha 0.9

[22:39] <ybart> I think it's a good idea to tell the world...

[22:39] * ericb2 provides experimental versions at http://ftp.cusoo.org/MacOSX/INTEL/native_10.4.4/

[22:39] <ericb2> ismael_: exactly

[22:39] <CerebrosuS> guys i'm sry, i have to go, ... i will watch the TODO Task tomorrow, ... so have a nice evening

[22:39] * ericb2 afraid by the bandwidth

[22:39] <CerebrosuS> cu tomorrow

[22:39] <ericb2> CerebrosuS: cu

[22:40] <mav_eric> CerebrosuS: good night

[22:40] <ismael_> mav_eric: yes, but only by concerned people, not by everybody and especially people who don't understant it is a pre-alpha

[22:40] <ybart> CerebrosuS: see you

[22:40] * CerebrosuS is now known as cere_notAv

[22:40] <ybart> ericb2: bandwodth problem => buzz !

[22:40] <mav_eric> ismael_: you're right but I think we can communicate it the right way even to end users

[22:40] <paveljanik> ftp.linux.cz doesn't have bandwidth problems 8)

[22:41] <ismael_> mav_eric: i don't know what is the best

[22:41] <mav_eric> ismael_: being honest? :-)

[22:41] <ericb2> ybart the server hosting my build is strong enough, but Mac users are .. hmm

[22:41] <ybart> IMHO sooner or later doesn't really matters

[22:41] <ismael_> mav_eric: ;-)

[22:42] * ericb2 is proud to see were we are now

[22:42] <ybart> ericb2: I know but should you provide alpha or pre-alpha, the result will the almost the same :-)

[22:42] <ericb2> ybart sure

[22:42] <mav_eric> the only problem I see is the version number

[22:42] <paveljanik> this is the development snapshot, not alpha.

[22:42] <ybart> ericb2: You will have both happy and unhappy users

[22:42] <mav_eric> 2.3.0 sounds like we have an already full working aqua version

[22:42] <ericb2> ybart as usual :)

[22:42] <ericb2> mav_eric: no, fonts issues, refresh issues

[22:43] <ericb2> mav_eric: once fixed, ok

[22:43] <mav_eric> ericb2: I know but the version number implicates that

[22:43] <ybart> ericb2: mav_eric said about version numbering

[22:43] <ybart> mav_eric: You're true, maybe we should use another versioning scheme until beta

[22:43] <ericb2> other news about code

[22:43] <mav_eric> ericb2: in open-source it is kind of common to release an alpha being 0.1 or something and not 2.1

[22:44] <mav_eric> or 2.3

[22:44] <ericb2> mav_eric: I wrote alpha 0.9 is ork in progress in my wiki page  ;)

[22:44] <ericb2> work in progress, sorry

[22:44] * shaunmcdonald has just woke up from nap

[22:44] <ybart> May be a good versioning scheme will be to just provide the build date

[22:44] <mav_eric> ericb2: that's O.K. but the dmg has 2.3.0

[22:44] * GlowingApple (n=jayson@pc237522758324.unl.edu) has joined #ooo_macport

[22:46] <paveljanik> mav_eric: the same as other development snapshots produced by me...

[22:47] <mav_eric> paveljanik: hmm. So users know that this is an development snaphost

[22:47] <mav_eric> if that's the case it's o.k. with me

[22:47] <ericb2> mav_eric: I think, until we announce alpha version, this is pre alpha, no ?

[22:47] <mav_eric> ericb2: you're right

[22:47] <ericb2> for me no problem at all

[22:47] <ericb2> again about code

[22:48] <shaunmcdonald> Currently all mac builds are built with the same .app name in the .dmg

[22:48] <ericb2> I started clipping

[22:48] <paveljanik> no, there is no pre alpha.

[22:48] <paveljanik> This is regular development snapshot.

[22:48] <shaunmcdonald> it might be an idea to have openoffice.org 2 aqua.app

[22:48] <ericb2> and I'm testing something very close to clipping implemented in salgdi

[22:48] <paveljanik> there will be regular development snapshots after alpha, after beta and even after release.

[22:49] <shaunmcdonald> to be able to tell the deifference between the aqua and X11 builds

[22:49] <shaunmcdonald> the .dmg will itself will need to be renamed likewise

[22:49] <GlowingApple> hi everyone. For the aqua build, is there an easy way to update the source and build with the newest patches? I'm guessing I shoudl not run a cvs up as the OOo code is using a set milestone

[22:49] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: dum^^mac user s wont ask for X11 ?

[22:50] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: we need an easy way to tell the difference between the X11 apps and the aqua apps

[22:51] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: I introduced one recently ; preferences are not in the same folder

[22:51] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: and we can continue using a new name for the bundle

[22:52] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: I propose to name the X11 ones with X11 in the name, and the aqua one with nothing more (implies it is the regular version)

[22:52] <paveljanik> ybart: +1. so the change should be done *outsied* auqavcl01...

[22:52] <ericb2> paveljanik: in obr5 ?

[22:52] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: we would need to wait until 2.3 we can rename X11

[22:53] <ybart> paveljanik, shaunmcdonald: no problem

[22:53] <ericb2> paveljanik: oliver and me have to create a cws for bundle changes ( remove program )

[22:53] <paveljanik> ericb2: outside auqavcl01. Maybe in obr5.

[22:53] <shaunmcdonald> we would need to wait until after then before releasing aqua builds with no aqua in the name

[22:53] <ybart> paveljanik, shaunmcdonald: no problem

[22:53] <ericb2> paveljanik: oliver and me have to create a cws for bundle changes ( remove program )

[22:53] <paveljanik> ericb2: outside auqavcl01. Maybe in obr5.

[22:53] <shaunmcdonald> we would need to wait until after then before releasing aqua builds with no aqua in the name

[22:54] <shaunmcdonald> the idea is that someone who download one of our alpha aqua builds won't over write their current X11 installation

[22:54] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: this is already the case

[22:54] <shaunmcdonald> that is the reason why I bring up the .app rename

[22:55] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: I guess it will be installed somewhere else, no ?

[22:55] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: We can add -dev in the app name ?

[22:56] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: I suppose it is currently "OpenOffice.org 2.3.app", whereas the current stable release is "OpenOffice.org 2.2.app"

[22:56] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: indeed

[22:56] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: So, nothing will be overwritten...

[22:56] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: and people installing 2.3.0 know what they are doing

[22:57] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: until ooo 2.3 comes out ;-)

[22:57] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: Of course :-)

[22:57] <shaunmcdonald> so are we going to do the renaming of the X11 version for 2.3?

[22:57] <ybart> ericb2: The one installing the dev version ? Not sure...

[22:57] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: Rename the dmg but not the app IMHO

[22:58] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: from 2.3 if they are using 2.3 X11, then the .app name would be "OpenOffice.org 2-X11.app"

[22:59] <ericb2> another good news, is Yvan alias ybart provided the first printing window  :

[22:59] <shaunmcdonald> if they are installing the aqua version it would be "OpenOffice.org 2.app"

[22:59] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: Ok for me

[22:59] <shaunmcdonald> that would be my proposal

[22:59] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: But with a space instead of -

[23:00] <ybart> (just a detail)

[23:00] * ericb2 vote for shaunmcdonald proposal

[23:00] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: +1

[23:00] <shaunmcdonald> there needs to be work for the .DS_Store for 2.3 X11 any way

[23:00] * ybart too

[23:01] <shaunmcdonald> so for the Aqua alpha, which will be be release before OpenOffice.org 2.3, we will use the .app name of "OpenOffice.org 2.3.app" ?

[23:01] <mav_eric> ybart: the - is suits better for Unix enviroments and we're currently using it

[23:02] <ybart> mav_eric: .app is not part of common Unix environment

[23:02] <shaunmcdonald> it doesn't really matter whether there is a - or a space that is a minor detail, I don't mind either

[23:02] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: I agree too

[23:02] <mav_eric> ybart: sure but for the testtool app

[23:03] <paveljanik> next point? ;-)

[23:03] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: the .app needs to be there, but is hidden on the mac

[23:03] <ybart> mav_eric: It was a user-oriented POV...

[23:03] <mav_eric> the testtool app doesn't like spaces - we had this trouble once. Aks jamesmckenzie

[23:03] <paveljanik> the naming is so minor issue now...

[23:03] <ericb2> Next Point : 3. WWDC 2007 (weekly news)

[23:03] <mav_eric> paveljanik: agreed. Let's continue

[23:04] <ericb2> FYI, I have tried to invite Philipp Lohmann at WWDC

[23:04] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: It's not why I intended to say. I just point the fact that bundles are not common in Unix

[23:04] <shaunmcdonald> mav_eric: that error with space has been fixed some time ago

[23:04] <ericb2> can we continue ?

[23:04] <mav_eric> yes we can

[23:04] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: ok, lets continue with the next point

[23:04] <ericb2> I did an official demand to Philipp hierarchy

[23:04] <ericb2> and I'm waiting

[23:05] <ericb2> the eTicket is ok (from Apple )

[23:05] <ybart> shaunmcdonald: To answer your question about aqua naming, I prefer appending -dev to the version number if we release it to public

[23:05] <ericb2> but i want to be sure we have enough money to pay the travel + hotel

[23:06] <ericb2> currently, Team e.V nor Apple (afaik) sent the money to cusoon

[23:06] <ericb2> and we have not enough, so we must wait

[23:06] <ericb2> I hope the situation will progress asap

[23:07] <ericb2> again, I invite people to propose questions, and code, or whatever , using http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/ User:Ericb#Mac_OS_X_porter_Team_at_WWDC_2007

[23:09] <ericb2> Next point ?

[23:09] <ericb2> 4. Prepare OOoCon 2007 ( deadline : 1st June for proposal ! )

[23:10] <ismael_> i may not be able to attend as i start school the same week, so i won't propose a talk

[23:11] <ericb2> ismael_: can't you delay ? Nothing important happens the first week ;)

[23:11] <ericb2> ismael_: could be a good occasion to present yourself to a lot of people. This is important too ^^

[23:12] <ismael_> ericb2: as i'm not sure if i will be able to attend or not, i prefer not to do a talk, but i will try to come

[23:13] <ericb2> ismael_: this is damage. I'm sure you'd have proposed a great conf  :-/

[23:13] <ismael_> ericb2: next year

[23:14] <ericb2> ismael_: another information : your expenses for the travel can be funded if you do a conf

[23:14] <ericb2> ismael_: but I'll respect your choice

[23:15] <shaunmcdonald> Unless something comes up I'll be going to ooocon2007, and will be happy to be a speaker if I can come up with something to speak about

[23:15] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: you have a lot to say  : bots, the website, the port ... your contributions ( cws ..etc)

[23:16] <ybart> Will it be recorded ?

[23:16] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: I have only done 1 CWS so far

[23:16] <shaunmcdonald> ybart: hopefully the same as last year

[23:16] <ybart> :-)

[23:16] <shaunmcdonald> where there was a video taken and the presentation files put online

[23:16] <ismael_> ericb2: i will try to have more informations concerning the start of school year

[23:17] <mikesic> If travel could be paid, I would propose to talk about debugging with Emacs and gdb, or XCode

[23:17] <ybart> If you want, I would be happy to review your Impress docs...

[23:17] <ericb2> ismael_: yes, please

[23:17] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: I think what I need is for someone to just give me a narrow focused topic and a few bullet points to work on

[23:17] <ericb2> mikesic: you can ask. I'd be glad to meet you for true !

[23:18] <mikesic> ericb2: I would like to meet everyone as well :)

[23:18] <ericb2> mikesic: I know the amount of money is limited, but it could be possible

[23:18] <paveljanik> mikesic: IIRC, we never had enough money to cover the expenses for travels...

[23:18] <paveljanik> it always depends on the local organizers.

[23:19] <mikesic> paveljanik: I didn't think travel would be paid, and I can't afford the trip myself this year :(

[23:19] <ericb2> paveljanik: if I'm not too wrong, there is some residual money from Lyon confs

[23:20] <ericb2> mikesic: I'll ask. I'm tired we never have enough money for the minimum

[23:20] * paveljanik hopes at least half of that sum was returned for meal ;-)

[23:20] <mikesic> ericb2: Thanks :)

[23:21] <ericb2> mikesic: you are welcome

[23:21] <shaunmcdonald> ericb2: the Paris Expo is going to be before the ooocon2007 this year

[23:21] <ericb2> shaunmcdonald: I have not the dates in mind . Do you know them ?

[23:22] <paveljanik> next point?

[23:22] <shaunmcdonald> 25 to 29 September

[23:22] <shaunmcdonald> according to http://www.apple-expo.com/uk/index.php?home=gp

[23:22] <ericb2> Next point is  :

[23:22] <ericb2> 5. TODO tasks in Issues - to better know what needs doing and who is doing what

[23:22] <paveljanik> Good. I hope we will always use this URL for our TODO/list of issues: http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?keywords=aqua

[23:22] <ericb2> URL : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/AquaToDo#Other_known_issues

[23:23] <shaunmcdonald> oocon2007 is 19-21 september, so expo is after ooocon2007 again

[23:23] <paveljanik> This is another URL ;-)

[23:23] <shaunmcdonald> this time not overlapping with ooocon

[23:24] <ericb2> paveljanik: I suggest we create aqua issues, and once created, we remove the job from the list

[23:24] <ericb2> (in Other_known_issues )

[23:24] <paveljanik> good idea. And then remove that page completely.

[23:24] <ericb2> paveljanik: automagically :)

[23:24] <paveljanik> because it again is a duplicate of the other source of infos. Like your changelog.

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