Education ClassRoom/Previous Logs/Hybrid Model of Teaching OpenSource

[17:07] <andreasmeiszner> Ok, so shall we start with questions / comments on the suggested hybrid approach to SE. Thus it would be clear to all what it is about?

[17:08] * ericb2 searching the links

[17:08] <chacha_chaudhry> http://www.slideshare.net/andreasmeiszner/breaking-the-silence-taking-learning-online-presentation

[17:08] <chacha_chaudhry> http://www.scribd.com/doc/10933440/A-HYBRID-APPROACH-TO-COMPUTER-SCIENCE-EDUCATION

[17:08] <chacha_chaudhry> ericb2: ^^

[17:09] <ericb2> chacha_chaudhry: thanks :)

[17:09] <andreasmeiszner> thx!

[17:09] <chacha_chaudhry> andreasmeiszner: I haven't gone through the approach .. may you explain briefly how it is different from common open source development model.

[17:10] * wtebbens (n=wouter@ip115-58-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) has joined #education.openoffice.org

[17:10] <andreasmeiszner> ok, so basically it is a open approach to courses which is dervived from the way open source communities, but also the web more in general works.

[17:10] * andreasma (n=andreasm@p3E9D2296.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #education.openoffice.org

[17:11] <wtebbens> good afternoon all!

[17:11] <andreasmeiszner> hi wouter, welcome!

[17:11] <chacha_chaudhry> wtebbens: hello meeting has already started.

[17:11] <sroy> good evening . it is 21:45 hrs here

[17:11] <andreasma> hi all

[17:11] <wtebbens> hi andreas, sorry I am late (and can only stay for half an hour)

[17:12] <chacha_chaudhry> andreasm wtebbens: we are already following andreasmeiszner .. andreasmeiszner may we continue

[17:12] <andreasmeiszner> the hybrid approach aims to bring together the different involved stakeholders (students & educators from different institutions, open source practitioners & free learners outside of formal education) within a "semi-structured" way

[17:13] <andreasmeiszner> often formal education - even if about open source - follows the traditional "style": closed, isolated, disconnected, static,...

[17:13] <andreasmeiszner> does this still makes sense?

[17:14] <chacha_chaudhry> yep very much.

[17:14] <andreasmeiszner> ok

[17:14] <andreasmeiszner> so just as an example

[17:14] <andreasmeiszner> "learning processess" in open source are often visible and become learning resources for many others

[17:15] <andreasmeiszner> in formal education however - they are normally "lost" or disconnected from learning materials

[17:15] <andreasmeiszner> so this is the learning process side that we e.g. want to adress with the hybrid approach

[17:16] <andreasmeiszner> within an open environment, such as the piloted www.netgeners.net side (still just early playing), the different stakeholders might engage analogue to the way it can be seen in open source

[17:17] <andreasmeiszner> therefore providing a richer learning experience, sharing the burden amongst different institutions on providing basic information and allowing e.g. that contributions to an open source student by student A could be a useful learning resource for students X,Y,Z

[17:18] <andreasmeiszner> this means "semi-structured", because contributions could also be found by students XYZ, if they "search the web" - but like this it would be more convenient for them

[17:18] <andreasmeiszner> uff - hope you are still with me

[17:19] daeseon david_jaco

[17:19] >david_jaco< : the log will be available there : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_ClassRoom/Previous_Logs/Hybrid_Model_of_Teaching_OpenSource

[17:19] <chacha_chaudhry> yes

[17:19] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: sure :)

[17:19] <david_jaco> sure

[17:20] <fardad> yes

[17:20] <wtebbens> sounds good

[17:20] <andreasmeiszner> ok - such an hybrid approach should be "less" conflicting with the educational structures we are operating at

[17:21] <andreasmeiszner> because teachers can still "lecture" their courses as the need to (legal constraints), yet an environment like e.g. netgeners provides a more informal collaborative space

[17:22] <andreasmeiszner> such an environment could than be - step by step - improved to gradually advance ans slowly mature

[17:22] <andreasmeiszner> to respect e.g. legal and cultural constraints of formal education

[17:22] <andreasmeiszner> this is the sshort to medium aspect, in the long term certainly there would be much more in it

[17:23] <andreasmeiszner> e.g. virtual internships, certification against for paid assessment for "free learners outside of formal education", etcetc

[17:23] <andreasmeiszner> ideally all involved sides should gain

[17:24] <andreasmeiszner> ok - questions? before this ends up in a monologue?

[17:24] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: no, it isn't

[17:25] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner:

[17:25] <ericb2> I think the Education Project is already another model of hybrid approach, because we :

[17:25] <ericb2> - work with schools, and profs

[17:25] <ericb2> - we are involved in the project

[17:25] <ericb2> - we propose real tasks, in production mode

[17:25] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I don't know how close are both (your hybrid approach and Education Project approach), but they look similar

[17:25] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: excepted we have no resources

[17:26] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: but both are winner-winner models

[17:26] <andreasmeiszner> yes, your work is close to this - except maybe to provide a more convenient space to make students work visible and relate it as well to educational materials as to their work in open source - but in principle your work is very close

[17:26] * Sowe (n=Sowe@ws017.intech.unu.edu) has joined #education.openoffice.org

[17:27] <andreasmeiszner> Hello Sulayman / Sowe

[17:27] <Sowe> Hello all

[17:27] <Sowe> Hello Andreas

[17:27] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I think this will improve : I met the Computing Department director saturday, and he was very enthousiast to know what we do. He even invited me to present the project asap

[17:27] <andreasmeiszner> Let me shortly introduce Sulayman: he started the work at Aristotle, sending out students to open source projects

[17:27] <ericb2> Sowe: be welcome :)

[17:28] <wtebbens> I wonder what differences there are between the two mentioned approaches, for the fact of the having or not having resources. ericb2 and andreasmeiszner any comment?

[17:28] <andreasmeiszner> eric, this is perfect. and i think what would be a good way forward is to put the concepts together and build on our current works - type of sherry picking

[17:28] <wtebbens> (if I understand correctly :))

[17:29] <ericb2> wtebbens: better organization from andreasmeiszner side ? More advanced state too maybe

[17:29] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I forgot : Computing Department director of UTBM (my school)

[17:29] <andreasmeiszner> but less practical experiences - by now we mainly have set up the models / structures

[17:30] <andreasmeiszner> means - our work is less advanced than OO work

[17:30] <Sowe> The Auth approach, now called the outside approach worked well for us and our students

[17:30] <andreasmeiszner> in practical terms

[17:31] <andreasmeiszner> as detailed at the paper http://www.scribd.com/doc/10933440/A-HYBRID-APPROACH-TO-COMPUTER-SCIENCE- EDUCATION

[17:31] <Sowe> the limitation we found out as highlighted with the flosscom project is that the students have less opportunity to interact with the "outside word"

[17:31] <andreasmeiszner> we tried to map existing approaches to be found to models

[17:32] <Sowe> i think this is where the Netgeners project by Andreas comes to be very important

[17:32] <andreasmeiszner> and found out that universities either send their students out (outside approach) into well established communities

[17:32] <andreasmeiszner> or tried to apply the principles of virtual communities within their institution (inside approach)

[17:33] <andreasmeiszner> however, the highest value would be a mix of both - the hybrid approach

[17:33] <andreasmeiszner> and this is what we suggest

[17:34] <Sowe> The SE education model for the outside approach can be found here: http://sweng.csd.auth.gr/~sksowe/SE%20Education%20FLOSS%20Model/

[17:34] <andreasmeiszner> wtebbens: not sure if the differnce is clear?!?

[17:34] <ericb2> Sowe: thanks :)

[17:35] * danielbw (n=Daniel@secured2.monstertool.com) has joined #education.openoffice.org

[17:35] <danielbw> ericb2, ping?

[17:35] daeseon danielbw david_jaco

[17:37] <ericb2> danielbw: hello

[17:38] <wtebbens> andreasmeiszner: the outside and inside approaches seem intuitive to me. however I wonder in how far can learners who are not registered as students in your institution join the learning process?

[17:38] <IZBot> News from cws: fwk99: nominated || macmiscfixes: nominated

[17:38] * jza (n=jza@189.132.187.165) has joined #education.openoffice.org

[17:38] <jza> hey ericb2

[17:38] <jza> just made it

[17:39] <ericb2> jza: hello. meeting ;)

[17:39] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: how do you proceed to evaluate the candidates +?

[17:40] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: which candidates?

[17:40] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: the students

[17:40] <andreasmeiszner> this is done by the Aristotle team

[17:40] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: I'm not sure of the words, but thre are two types of courses : evaluative and informative

[17:40] <Sowe> wtebbens: the idea is that if our students should expose and discuss their assignments (software testing, requirement analysis, coding) on the netgeners platform, other students and free learners can engage them and exchange ideas

[17:41] <andreasmeiszner> http://www.slideshare.net/andreasmeiszner/open-source-software-engineering-aristotle-students-guide- english-presentation

[17:41] <andreasmeiszner> at this presentation they indicate to the students how they would be eveluated

[17:42] <andreasmeiszner> one aspect still missing would be "peer-review" - for which a hybrid model might allow

[17:42] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: indeed. essential

[17:42] <Sowe> previously (2005 -2008) student only downloaded software from projects, reported bugs and were only in contact with their respective project communities

[17:43] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: from my side, I proposed to define a list of expected know how and so on. and the student should proof he validated every during the project

[17:43] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: yes, e.g. the netgeners page has the (joomla) commenting and ranking option that could "complement" evaluations

[17:44] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: one option would be to have A. the students work in progress and B. let them produce an outcome to be made publicly available

[17:46] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: it was an open question :) In fact, I often see the applied task (on the outside side), as the particular case. and the inside case more generic. Hot to be sure the "generic" is validated working on the outside side ?

[17:47] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: means how to be sur the student understood the concept and not solved one case only, means it's not sure he will solve another similar problem

[17:49] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: understood. yes this is a challenge. on the theoretical side I also find this approach close to what we do: http://www.helsinki.fi/science/networkedlearning/eng/delete.html

[17:49] <andreasmeiszner> ericb2: The PI model applied within project based students work

[17:51] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: bookmarked. Thanks :)

[17:52] <Sowe> good helsinki approach

[17:52] <Sowe> many educators seems to be doing the same thing around the globe

[17:53] <Sowe> Comment on evaluation

[17:53] <andreasmeiszner> Sowe: yes, with many different names - but often going into the same direction

[17:53] <ericb2> andreasmeiszner: as a partial answer, in the Education Project, we have choosen to delegate the evaluation to the prof managing the student. But this is just a workaround