Community Council Minutes 20080925

Attendees

1. André Schnabel
2. Martin Hollmichel
3. Stefan Taxhet
4. Cor Nouws
5. Matthias Huetsch
6. Pavil Janick
7. Sophie Gautier

IRC logs

(19:40:45) CorNouws: better start with agenda (if I may suggest)?
(19:41:52) mhu: yes, please go ahead, Cor.
(19:41:52) Thalion72: CorNouws: good Idea- but seems, we need to skip first item
(19:42:33) CorNouws: Minutes first, but does anyone know about Louis?
(19:42:57) sophi: CorNouws: I'll write the minutes
(19:43:06) ***stx12 has no idea
(19:45:13) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'd say we should start .. would you lead the discusssion (as you kindly provided the agenda)?
(19:45:15) CorNouws: no one about Louis? What's his mobile BTW?
(19:45:21) CorNouws: sophi: Thanks! .. otoh: I meant to say that we have to approve the 'minutes' of 9-11 first
(19:45:34) CorNouws: Thalion72: OK if no one objects ...
(19:45:41) CorNouws: (wait 5000)
(19:45:54) mhu: +1 for the minutes
(19:46:01) mhu: ...of 9-11
(19:46:12) Thalion72: minutes ar ok to me
(19:46:17) _Nesshof_: +1
(19:46:37) paveljanik: +1
(19:46:39) stx12: ok
(19:46:45) sophi: ok
(19:46:56) CorNouws: OK, thanks all.
(19:47:20) CorNouws: next item: "Louis proposal for Trademark"
(19:47:38) _Nesshof_: did I miss something ?
(19:47:54) CorNouws: Sadly, his idea to send it few evenings agoo, seemed to be blocked somehow
(19:47:55) Thalion72: _Nesshof_: no
(19:48:10) stx12: we all missed the proposal
(19:48:19) CorNouws: _Nesshof_: indeed, no proposal yet, so I'm afraid we have to skip it . again
(19:48:19) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'd suggest to skip this item (as usual)
(19:48:41) CorNouws: Next item: "Update on Community year plan" - my proposal to freeze ...
(19:49:01) Thalion72: but I'm close to request to remove Louis from the council due to inactivity
(19:49:11) CorNouws: Pls read here if you haven't alreadu done: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda
(19:49:38) CorNouws: Thalion72: I'll keep that for the end of the agenda, OK?
(19:49:39) sophi: Thalion72: I would agree but I want the trademarks published first :)
(19:49:47) CorNouws: sophi: :-)
(19:50:05) Thalion72: CorNouws: what are the "urgent matters " ?
(19:50:55) CorNouws: trademark, council memberships and voting .. just our own roots, I would say
(19:50:55) mhu: yes, can you please explain, Cor ?
(19:51:09) mhu: oh, thanks
(19:51:38) Thalion72: CorNouws: ok - so if I get you right you like to delay our work on the community year plan until these points are resolved?
(19:52:04) CorNouws: Yes, that is one part ...
(19:52:38) CorNouws: Other part: it only makes sense to work on it, it there is enough active support (one way or another)
(19:52:59) CorNouws: (one way = cc members, other might be (in future) staff )
(19:53:30) CorNouws: Is my feeling about this clear to all?
(19:54:07) mhu: hmm, yes: not enough support from other members, right?
(19:54:09) stx12: yes, but there is a third option - more involvement of people beyond cc (or staff), or?
(19:54:09) Thalion72: CorNouws: agreed - official delay would just state, what would happen anyway
(19:55:30) Thalion72: stx12: we can put the year plan to the agenda again at any time (e.g. after we have an idea how to involve more people in the council's work)
(19:55:45) CorNouws: mhu, stx12 : well, there may be some nuances (is that English?), but that will become clear whem we meet live, shortly, I expect :-)
(19:56:41) stx12: so we move the discussion of the year plan at the bottom of the agenda until we find something else that should be moved there...
(19:57:38) CorNouws: stx12: Agenda of today, or more in general ? Non of that is really my idea.
(19:57:59) sophi: until we don't know who are the active members (coders/non coders) and a way to recognize them to involve them in the staff, we can't discuss a future staff and activities
(19:58:04) mhu: so you have some ideas on how to improve, that we should talk about then?
(19:58:51) CorNouws: IMO, this is best to discuss in Hamburg, when we see and meet it is much more human and effictive to understand each other.
(19:58:57) stx12: I meant it in general; you prefer to stall the item; looks like a hen and egg problem to me...
(19:59:19) stx12: CorNouws: agreed
(19:59:38) mhu: okay, agreed.
(19:59:45) CorNouws: stx12: thanks. Also clear enought for the others to agree for the moment?
(19:59:59) _Nesshof_: yes
(20:00:19) Thalion72: yes
(20:00:36) sophi: yes
(20:01:30) CorNouws: To be continued :-)
(20:01:36) CorNouws: Next item "Update on Ask the AB to define clearly its role in OOo"
(20:01:51) CorNouws: Been discussed extensively. Any other questions /remarks on this subject?
(20:02:06) CorNouws: Other that who has the taks to type and send?
(20:02:21) mhu: no, I guess.
(20:02:42) sophi: CorNouws: me I guess
(20:02:43) Thalion72: not from my side
(20:03:27) CorNouws: sophi: Fine + someone else, volunteering (2 representatives imo suites best in most cases)
(20:04:20) CorNouws: Is propose someone from the developers-part of te council
(20:04:33) CorNouws: mhu: ?
(20:04:45) Thalion72: I'd suggest John (although absent atm, he woked together with sophi on the letter)
(20:05:09) mhu: well, I can do, maybe.
(20:05:54) mhu: where 'maybe' means: if you all agree.
(20:06:05) CorNouws: Thanks ... +1
(20:06:25) CorNouws: Others ..?
(20:06:27) _Nesshof_: ]q
(20:06:32) Thalion72: +1
(20:06:51) ***_Nesshof_ lost his German kezboard
(20:07:01) _Nesshof_: +1
(20:07:08) ***Thalion72 will bring one along next week ;)
(20:07:29) paveljanik: +1
(20:07:31) sophi: +1 too
(20:08:13) mhu: okay, that means, sophi and I are supposed to send that letter out, that is already prepared and discussed, right?
(20:08:33) Thalion72: yes
(20:08:47) sophi: mhu, yes, on behalf of the CC
(20:08:47) CorNouws: mhu: OK fine, lets discuss details later
(20:09:11) CorNouws: Glad that we have been able to bring this to an end.
(20:09:35) mhu: sophi: yes, that was what I meant to say.
(20:09:38) paveljanik: CorNouws: no, this is not end...
(20:09:51) paveljanik: we well wait endlessly for an answer...
(20:10:43) sophi: paveljanik: but you won't wait ;-)
(20:10:52) CorNouws: paveljanik: somewhere there can be a start, But I'll be hapy to discuss with you (and the others) what might be needed in that situation
(20:10:56) paveljanik: sophi: I do not care
(20:11:07) sophi: paveljanik: this is what I say :)
(20:11:18) CorNouws: paveljanik: O know, therefor I didn't aks your comment - with permission
(20:11:21) paveljanik: nothing is needed. And I will not spend one more minute on AB ;-)
(20:11:29) Thalion72: CorNouws: we can set an (internal) deadline of 4 weeks for an answer
(20:11:31) paveljanik: next item?
(20:11:38) Thalion72: next item
(20:11:39) CorNouws: paveljanik: I know, therefore I didn't aks your comment - with permission
(20:11:45) CorNouws: Yip
(20:11:57) CorNouws: "Update on modifications of the CC charter (André)"
(20:12:24) CorNouws: André, am I right if I suppose that it is best to wait after meeting in Hamburg with details?
(20:12:48) Thalion72: hmm .. let me at least give a status ;)
(20:12:59) CorNouws: Yes, pls
(20:13:12) Thalion72: and to me the Hamburg meeting is independend from the current proposal
(20:13:18) Thalion72: ok .. statusof the draft:
(20:14:05) Thalion72: Council Proposal is done (as long as we keep focus on "ho is on the council and how are the representatives elected")
(20:14:21) Thalion72: Election proposal has still two open points:
(20:14:38) Thalion72: 1st - electorate for Code Contributors
(20:15:08) Thalion72: Martin sent aproposal to dev@ooo .. and as he got only positive answers, I'm going to include this one
(20:15:32) _Nesshof_: Thalion72: zes, please
(20:15:41) Thalion72: 2nd - better description of the "Schulze voting method"
(20:16:11) Thalion72: the voting method still seems complex to me (even if I read the German description) -
(20:16:47) CorNouws: ok ... thanks for these highlights
(20:16:54) Thalion72: As Sophie pointet out, GEntoo and Dabian have some simple points in their voting rules. And we would need to include such descritpions
(20:17:22) Thalion72: ..helpwould be welcome (I'd guess I wil not be able to provide a good description before Hamburg)
(20:17:33) CorNouws: I've some "questions" as well by the "Schulze voting method"
(20:18:01) CorNouws: Methods for voting that work, should be easy and clear, IMO
(20:18:25) Thalion72: I second this
(20:18:26) CorNouws: And as far as I understood, it is not, not for anyone (but one?)
(20:18:39) CorNouws: So maybe to idealistich but not practical??
(20:18:52) CorNouws: .. just a suggestion, not yet sure on that!
(20:19:04) Thalion72: CorNouws: it is not "easy" - but it is "clear" (it is a well-defined mathematical method)
(20:19:23) sophi: CorNouws: some projects are already using it, so we can't say this is unpractical
(20:19:59) CorNouws: Ah, maybe the impression that I got from the mails was wrong ;-) but I think we cannot sort that out completely right now, isn 't it?
(20:20:08) stx12: the additional hurdle is to find a tool that implements it and we trust
(20:20:11) Thalion72: CorNouws: yes
(20:20:23) Thalion72: stx12: yes
(20:20:39) mhu: maybe we write that tool ourselfs, and open source it ?
(20:20:57) _Nesshof_: mhu: calc _
(20:21:02) stx12: i guess we could use john's help here. we trust his OOoCon ranking too...
(20:21:04) CorNouws: To be honust: I haven't studied why the method was proposed (it's benefits compared with other metods)
(20:21:10) sophi: mhu: tools are already available
(20:21:11) Thalion72: I was thinking about raising the question about the voting method at dev@de - we hadavery long and intensive discussion about voting methods for elections of our CoLeads
(20:22:06) Thalion72: CorNouws: this year's OOoCon vote is a good example
(20:22:13) mhu: I think the question was to find a tool that we (other community members) have trust into.
(20:22:56) sophi: Thalion72: and the new splash screen too...
(20:23:11) ***mhu has not yet have time to look at the available tools, and do a code review.
(20:23:12) CorNouws: Thalion72: example for what: the need or something that can be solved perfectly by the "Schulze voting method"
(20:23:43) CorNouws: IMO, we should better spent our developer resources to other code :-)
(20:23:44) Thalion72: CorNouws: the need for some fair voting method
(20:23:55) CorNouws: Thalion72: OK, clear.
(20:24:27) sophi: Thalion72: thanks :)
(20:24:36) Thalion72: mhu: it doesnt matter ifyou have a tool that implements the methods correctly, if our community does not trust in the method itself ;)
(20:24:42) CorNouws: But, I can't discuss this souriously without having studied it..
(20:25:08) Thalion72: CorNouws: ok .. I'll try to find more ideas about the method andprovide points for discussion
(20:25:16) CorNouws: And that applies for some others as well, if I understand it correctly
(20:25:45) CorNouws: Thalion72: Great, and maybe a summary of the discussion on dev@de is useful as well for us?
(20:26:19) mhu: okay, so we probably need to look deeper into how this is supposed to work.
(20:26:26) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'll provide this (in general I'd rather discuss this on a global list, but it would be far more easy to me to discuss in German)
(20:26:30) CorNouws: So, now we are going to state, in what time we cc members confirm to study the "Schulze voting method" in order to be able to decide ..
(20:27:27) mhu: until next meeting?
(20:27:34) Thalion72: CorNouws: I don'tlike to force all memebers to study the method - you are welcome, but I'd like to provide a good summary with pros and cons
(20:27:38) CorNouws: Thalion72: Do we all understand German well enough. Moslty, I can cope with it
(20:28:11) sophi: CorNouws: this is also described in english, and several examples too
(20:29:03) mhu: I am just now looking at the english wikipedia entry; that seems to be understandable.
(20:29:03) Thalion72: CorNouws: as said - I'll provide a summary
(20:29:03) CorNouws: Thalion72: Yes, but since it is very basic, I would not like to proceed and decide with every cc member (as far as available) involved
(20:29:03) mhu: ...to someone with a mathematical background at least :-)
(20:29:11) CorNouws: To summarize: a) We get info( Wiki / André)
(20:29:25) Thalion72: mhu: yes - and that's the problem. The voting needs to be accepted by our community members (and not all have mathematical background)
(20:29:30) CorNouws: b) We take x weeks to prepare
(20:29:42) CorNouws: where x is (proposal): 2 ...
(20:29:54) Thalion72: CorNouws: ok
(20:30:18) CorNouws: c) we must be able to explain to non-mathematical people as well!
(20:30:22) ***mhu thinks we should not have community members without mathematical background :-)
(20:30:49) paveljanik: mhu: are eliptic integrals enough? ;-)
(20:30:58) CorNouws: Pls vote first on my proposal (a-c) than Mathhias' ;)
(20:31:06) mhu: paveljanik: yes, that will do :-)
(20:31:15) CorNouws: May I have your votes pls?
(20:31:18) mhu: +1
(20:31:22) sophi: +1
(20:31:39) Thalion72: +1
(20:31:46) stx12: +1
(20:31:49) paveljanik: -1
(20:32:02) paveljanik: if method need mathematical description it is wrong.
(20:32:09) _Nesshof_: +1
(20:32:24) CorNouws: paveljanik: that is part of my proposal, part c.
(20:32:28) CorNouws: Agree?
(20:32:34) Thalion72: paveljanik: that's exactly whatpoint c is about
(20:32:53) sophi: paveljanik: mathematics are explainable even to children ;)
(20:34:27) paveljanik: sophi: yes, I studied math ;-)
(20:34:30) mhu: if we come to conclude that it is not explainable to mere mortals, that we look for something else, I'd think.
(20:34:40) Thalion72: mhu: correct
(20:34:40) paveljanik: ok, then +1 ;-)
(20:34:46) CorNouws: Thanks!
(20:34:47) mhu: s/that we look/than we look/
(20:34:49) sophi: mhu: ok
(20:35:46) Thalion72: Just one sentence to the current Charter proposal again ...
(20:35:48) CorNouws: André wrote: election proposal has still two open points
(20:35:53) CorNouws: So now one is solved, other one on its way
(20:36:02) Thalion72: CorNouws: CORRECT
(20:36:04) CorNouws: Thalion72: Yes pls
(20:36:51) Thalion72: Work on the proposal is going very slowly, as it is unclear if we do just discuss about MMeeks proposal or if we are working on a general change of the charter
(20:37:24) CorNouws: Seems a good oe for me to put in our basket for next week. what do you think?
(20:37:26) Thalion72: looking at the current "speed" of our work, I'd expect a general change to take at least 6 Months
(20:37:36) sophi: Thalion72: oups, for me it was a general change because our project has evolved and need it
(20:37:37) CorNouws: oe = one
(20:37:38) Thalion72: CorNouws: yes
(20:37:57) CorNouws: OK, if no one objects, I would like to go on with the agenda
(20:38:02) CorNouws: (wait 5000)
(20:38:31) mhu: yes, please go on (as usual the time comes were my dinner is waiting...)
(20:38:40) CorNouws: Extra agenda item:
(20:38:46) CorNouws: André being close to request to remove Louis from the council due to inactivity
(20:38:58) CorNouws: Is it fair to ask Louis'opinion on that?
(20:39:19) mhu: well, that is somewhat exaggerated, isn't it; I'd vote -1
(20:39:40) mhu: ...to andre's point, nit to cor's
(20:39:46) Thalion72: CorNouws: I'd request this on the mailing list - not here
(20:39:47) mhu: s/nit/not/
(20:40:28) Thalion72: mhu: well we seem to have different opinions on this :)
(20:40:32) CorNouws: Agree, but I gues we (...) understand andrés feelings about this subject
(20:41:07) CorNouws: Our charter does not provide in this situation...
(20:41:10) mhu: andre, I can understand your feelings, but anyhow.
(20:41:16) Thalion72: CorNouws: you skipped on agenda item -face2face meeting
(20:41:20) CorNouws: So we'll have to do with human interaction ;-)
(20:41:48) mhu: yes, please lets talk about f2f meeting before I need to leave.
(20:41:59) CorNouws: Thalion72: Right. The other item will come back later. Sorry for being so stupid.
(20:42:25) ***mhu thinks Cor is not so stupid :-)
(20:42:40) sophi: mhu: +1
(20:42:44) CorNouws: A) 3-10 afternoon, B) 3-10 evening, C) 4-10 morning
(20:43:25) CorNouws: (question just for those intending to join, of course)
(20:44:13) CorNouws: (D) 3-10 morning and E 4-10 afternoon also possible)
(20:44:16) mhu: I'd take (B)
(20:44:20) _Nesshof_: i~m fine with all three alternatives
(20:44:45) ***mhu thinks that Schultze voting would help here...
(20:44:58) sophi: mhu: lol
(20:44:58) mhu: :-)
(20:45:10) CorNouws: stx12, sophi, paveljanik: sorry, I'm not sure if one of you inteded to join
(20:45:32) paveljanik: I won't be able to join.
(20:45:34) stx12: ABC work for me
(20:45:55) sophi: CorNouws: I would be interested if I could, but it's to long for me to travel to Hamburg
(20:46:40) CorNouws: sophi: understandable. The least we can do, is communicate (before/during) to understand/excahnge
(20:47:05) mhu: (B) would also include andre's request to have a beer :-)
(20:47:07) sophi: CorNouws: yes, thanks :)
(20:47:08) Thalion72: so ..3-10 afternoon +evening with beer?
(20:47:22) _Nesshof_: +1
(20:47:22) CorNouws: OK, for me B is OK as well, but to be honust, woudl like to start the evening at about 17:00 or so ...
(20:47:39) mhu: yes, 17:00 is fine with me
(20:47:54) CorNouws: mhu: and Andrés suggestion?
(20:47:57) stx12: hm, i don't drink before it's dark
(20:48:10) mhu: it will get dark early
(20:48:12) CorNouws: I only drink dark beer in the sun :-)
(20:48:12) stx12: starting at 17:00 with beer?
(20:48:25) _Nesshof_: stx12: we should move meeting towards xmas
(20:48:39) mhu: so, then maybe not start with beer, but have a coffee first
(20:48:43) CorNouws: mhu: André asked to meet in the afternoon, you prefer evening ..
(20:48:59) stx12: no, the earlier the better for me.
(20:49:03) mhu: well, I can accept 17:00 as early evening
(20:49:18) stx12: i'm available in the evening.
(20:49:28) CorNouws: OK, that we set it at 17:00.
(20:49:47) CorNouws: (volunteers can come earlier for site seeing)
(20:49:47) _Nesshof_: stx12: do we have a location ?
(20:49:53) Thalion72: ok .. how long would you expect the meeting to last?
(20:50:17) CorNouws: Thalion72: with some breaks ... and your wishes ;)
(20:50:52) stx12: the question who is going to stay over night...
(20:50:52) CorNouws: Seriously, my gues would be three hours minimum
(20:51:09) CorNouws: all that come from far, probably
(20:51:18) Thalion72: stx12: I'd stay over night
(20:51:39) stx12: then you shouldn't make other appointments...
(20:51:40) CorNouws: And me too, if it is too late to have the train back
(20:51:57) stx12: is that what you are asking?
(20:52:21) CorNouws: Is it possible to discuss location details per mail, or do I risk travling to Hamburg then, without knowing where to go?
(20:52:44) CorNouws: stx12: ?
(20:53:09) mhu: yes, lets try to find a location via email; I now need to leave for dinner...
(20:53:10) stx12: there is always a business environemtn available where we can start - if we don't come up with something else...
(20:53:25) Thalion72: stx12: the question to me ist If I should ask other people for a "late night meeting" (for some more beers)
(20:53:52) Thalion72: ok - let's find a location via list
(20:53:58) stx12: i think if we want to get something done there is not much time left in the evening.
(20:54:27) CorNouws: stx12: agree with that, unless you wnat to make it very late (early)
(20:54:38) CorNouws: OK all ... I feel confident at the moment that this will work out fine
(20:54:49) CorNouws: any comments, questions?
(20:54:57) stx12: does anybody need help with a hotel?
(20:55:15) Thalion72: stx12: I think I'll find one
(20:55:18) CorNouws: stx12: maybe, will contact you later on that. Thanks for asking!
(20:55:34) CorNouws: Net item ...
(20:55:37) stx12: ok, fine
(20:55:47) Thalion72: do we have items left?
(20:55:59) CorNouws: Need to discuss something on OOo Con (whick looks fine on the route) or finish?
(20:56:23) CorNouws: IMO we're finished for now.
(20:56:34) CorNouws: (wait 5000)
(20:56:45) ***mhu is finally leaving for dinner
(20:56:55) mhu: +1, for finishing for today
(20:57:01) paveljanik: ok, bye
(20:57:03) Thalion72: +1 for finish (OOoCon looks fine to me)
(20:57:07) CorNouws: mhu: thaks for your paitience and contributions - enjoy your meal!