Community Council Minutes 20080311

IRC log, Community Council Meeting 2008-03-11, 19:00 UTC

Attendees

• Stefan Taxhet (stx12)
• Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof__)
• André Schnabel (Thalion72)
• Louis Suarez-Potts (louis_to) (chair)
• Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
• Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
• Pavel Janík (paveljanik)
• John McCreesh (jpmcc)

• Sophie Gautier (sophi) could not attend

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IRC meeting commences 19:00 UTC (more or less)

louis_to hello all
CorNouws good evening
louis_to sorry for late notice
louis_to but appreciate that you could make it
louis_to shall we set a hard time limit on this meeting? I propose not longer than 1 hour
paveljanik +1
CorNouws +1
_nesshof_ +1
stx12 sounds good to me 
louis_to Thalion72?
Thalion72 +1
CorNouws mhu wrote he had to finish his lunch, and would arrive in about 10 min (from now)
louis_to okay, I'l ;assume that mhu is excited by that possibility
louis_to ah
louis_to we can start, anyway, with quick summary of john's post on budget holders
louis_to you are all familiar with it?
Thalion72 yes
CorNouws yep
paveljanik yes
louis_to the issues/objections were not very substantial. I raised the idea of other categories. Ie, education funds
louis_to Andre raised the logistics of ESC/developer approval
louis_to (and I just noted that john is not quite here yet)
*** jpmcc (n=user@92-235-187-79.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined the channel
louis_to hi john
louis_to I'll send you oin sidechannel the issue so far
jpmcc evening all
louis_to ->jpmcc: hi
paveljanik Hi John
CorNouws Hi
jpmcc apologies - took ages to log on to irc
louis_to no problem
louis_to so, I summarized the issues; logistical, mostly, and also query on adding new budget categories
CorNouws jpmcc: that's because your hate irc .. revence of the system
stx12 and I would like to raise that the ESC is supposed to hold two budgets (Developer and Infrastructure). I think infrastructure  belongs to the council as it covers not only development. Whereas "Developer" is a perfect fit for the ESC.
louis_to stx12: would you mean the ESC has total determination over that budget? 
paveljanik stx12: +1 to that idea.
paveljanik ESC for development, CC for infrastructure
Thalion72 +1
louis_to what kind of things would development include?
CorNouws +1 as Pavil explains
stx12 no, i would like to change "Budget Holder: To be appointed by ESC " to appainted by COuncil" for Infrastructure
paveljanik I do not like "to be appointed"...
stx12 so you would like to see qa cc member as budget holder? fine with me
paveljanik I think it is one additional level of references.
stx12 the question is whether is has to be a member or a delegate of the committee.
CorNouws prefer member: shorter lines, less extra coordination
* Thalion72 seconds CorNouws
stx12 fine with me for the budget holder; others? 
* stx12 is counting...
jpmcc +1
Thalion72 +1
louis_to stx12: I'd like to see the final wording
_nesshof_ stx12: +1
louis_to eg, Infrastructure: Budget Holder: to be appointed by the CC; aurhorisers: two project leads proposed by budget holder and accepted by CC. Discussions on project leads (?) Budget: X?
CorNouws "The Budget Holder for Infrastructure is choosen by the council from one of it's members"
louis_to I'm fine with the changes; I just am curious about what further counts as "development"
Thalion72 Infrastructure: Budget Holder: Member of the C, to be appointed by the CC; aurhorisers: two project leads proposed by budget holder and accepted by CC. Discussions on project leads and / or discuss@council ; Budget: 10,000.00?
paveljanik +1
stx12 authorisers: two members from the project leads group or from CC or from ESC
louis_to for infra? that's fine
louis_to +1
jpmcc stx12 amendment +1 ... let's spread the responsibilities.
Thalion72 +1 for stx12's suggestion
CorNouws +1
CorNouws Question: is ¨authorisers: xx  from the project leads group or from CC or from ESC¨ good as general rule?
louis_to CorNouws: doesn't it depend on the issuse?
CorNouws louis_to: ?
louis_to p_ls is a large and varied group; ESC is developer/product focused
Thalion72 CorNouws: as general rule for all budgets?
CorNouws Just a suggestion. Reasons not to do that?
louis_to perhaps we can discuss that on list
Thalion72 yes - Marketing (marcons could be approvers)
louis_to for now, if we are all agreed....
louis_to so CC does infrastructure; ESC develper/development
Thalion72 yes
louis_to last point here; is the CC at all involved with development? ST had stated (but may have been for infra) that CC appoints the budget authorisers?
louis_to my point: given that development is crucial to OOo's identity, I am concerned about CC's relevance
stx12 i was talking about infrastructure only
mhu hi all, I'm back now (even read the discussion log)
Thalion72 development will stay at ESC
louis_to stx12; ah.
louis_to Thalion72: ESC appoints and discusses budget ? is CC involved at all, then? (beyond setting original sums)
stx12 one could involve the CC / project leads as authorisers
louis_to mhu: going over budget discussions; stx12 persuasively argued that CC should control appoint infrastructure budget. ESC development
louis_to stx12: that would be my suggestion
CorNouws louis_to: ? dunno understand. Budget holder Devel. from ESC, authorisers from other entities. That's what I think is OK.
louis_to CorNouws: right
stx12 CorNouws: yes
mhu louis_to: thanks for the summary, I think I could follow reading the log
Thalion72 louis_to: stx12 never suggested to change John's proposal for the development budget 
louis_to Budget Holder: To be appointed by ESC Authorisers: two Project Leads/CC members proposed by Budget Holder and accepted by CC Discussions on: project_leads Budget: Developer 	€20,000.00
louis_to Thalion72: yes, stx12 corrected my misunderstanding
louis_to do we agree with the rephrased statement, then?
CorNouws +1
jpmcc louis_to: +1 (p.s. jpmcc wishes he had Euro sign instead of £ sign on keyboard)
Thalion72 +1 
paveljanik +1
stx12 +1
louis_to +1
_nesshof_ +1
louis_to mhu?
louis_to * one more point-- adding other categories, such as education: is that development? marketing? depends? 
stx12 IMO it depends
Thalion72 +1 for depends
mhu +1
louis_to (mhu: we are set to finish in 31 minutes)
mhu louis_to: yes, I noted your initial comment :-)
Thalion72 we should start with the current categories and ann more in the next budgets
CorNouws budget categories?
Thalion72 (add, not ann)
louis_to CorNouws: eg, marketing, development
CorNouws must be choosen bij CC, IMO
louis_to okay, agreed. Will discuss on council
CorNouws About the suggestion¨authorisers come from the project leads group or from CC or from ESC¨ good as general rule...
CorNouws When choosing someone as authoriser, I guess that his/her feeling with the subject is taken into account. So what would be the objection (trying to prevent extra mail ;-) )
louis_to :-)
louis_to any more comments on the budget proposal sent by jpmcc?
Thalion72 mhu had a comment (should we remove the extra OOoCon budget?)
louis_to if not, modulo the changes made do we all agree with it, then?
stx12 i still struggle with the all duties of the treasurer - but if mhu does not complain :-)
mhu well, I don't see how I could get around all this...
_nesshof_ stx12: maybe he don't want to be reelected this year again ;)
mhu finally, I would need to send the money anyway.
louis_to absent -1, the budget proposal is passed....
CorNouws Thalion72: that was about the fact that the 18.000 spendings are covered by the same incomes
stx12 yes, but now you need to hold the logs for all the budgets. 
louis_to friends, we have 26 minutes or so....
louis_to and if possible, let's discuss a few other items
Thalion72 louis_to: +1 for the proposal 
paveljanik sure, +1
louis_to such as: elections, WWDC 2007 funding, template contest. 
stx12 what about the option that the budget holder holds the log? 
CorNouws details by budget holder, totals by treasurer
mhu what are the issues with WWDC 07 funding and template contest? should I be aware of something?
stx12 i'm just afraid that we will not find a treasurer once we burned mhu
louis_to propsal: that we continue to work on the details of this but that we start with budgeting --now
Thalion72 mhu: yes - people complain about missing payments
louis_to mhu: the template contest winners have not been fully paid, I believe; wwdc2007 has some issues with reimbursement
louis_to we can and should discuss this on list
louis_to please read up...
mhu stx12: you don't burn me so quickly :-)
louis_to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda
louis_to we would like to resolve this as quickly as possible
CorNouws what I suggested on mail last Thursday -> pay-day
mhu what people do complain about what? I don't know of any contest winner, nor when the contest has been, nor ...
paveljanik 8)
louis_to so: wwdc and template issues tabled for on-list discussion: yes?
stx12 i paid those who had a paypal account. those where a bank transfer was needed could be lost by me.
stx12 i will clarify this.
Thalion72 stx12: so what would you suggest? Collect all missing requests and put it on a list for you to review and initiate the payments?
CorNouws stx12: Florian will have details, I guess
mhu yes, please someone tell me what to pay, whatfore, ..., and I might do. But not telling me doesn't help anyone.
CorNouws stx12:  ?
stx12 i should have the information about the template contest winners; but hints are welcome.
_nesshof_ who was the owner for performing the contest ?
CorNouws stx12: I?l ask Florian to do so
louis_to Documentation project, in particular Gerry Singleton
Thalion72 CorNouws: thanks!
louis_to however, the trace of winners remains on the doc list
stx12 the former documentation project lead.
_nesshof_ stx12: oj, that explains the problem
CorNouws _nesshof_:  hmm, partly, maybe
mhu I'm sure, we can
 resolve this, even if late for some of the winners.
Thalion72 I'd suggest AI for CorNouws: ask Florian (and other involved people) for missing payments, send list to stx12 and mhu
CorNouws yep, next issue please
louis_to +1
mhu WWDC 2007 ?
mhu I think this has been resolved meanwhile. Sophie?
louis_to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda/WWDC2007_Funding
CorNouws For me no question on that, so without futher info I would say: pay
louis_to sophie cannot make it..
CorNouws So we?l contact Sophie. Resolved > OK, If not, we?l do it.
jpmcc +1 for the CC to pay its debts :)
CorNouws (sorry, problems with  ´  in Gaim)
Thalion72 +1
CorNouws no comment (= yes)
mhu I payed, and Christian Hardy replied : "The 2000 Euros arrived to the CUSOON count yesterday.
mhu Thank you very much.
mhu Christian " on Feb 26th.
louis_to so, the wwdc 2007 is resolved?
mhu Stefan and Sophie have that as a copy.
stx12 yes, this is resolved.
louis_to okay; so Cor will contact Florian and correspond with MHU on resolving hte template issue
louis_to other points on these items?
CorNouws no
CorNouws What about budget for the OOoCon
CorNouws Could we think about extra's to help more developers from far to join?
Thalion72 the payment for QATrack .. but florian knows about it
louis_to Cor: shall we make that an agenda item for next time?
CorNouws and coordinate with beijijng about rules
Thalion72 +1
louis_to that can be said of *new* issues/items...
CorNouws louis_to: Yes and a proposal on mail first
jpmcc CorNouws: there are a number of OOoCon items I'd like to take to the CC ...
louis_to jpmcc: indeed
louis_to John: let's do it this week, as soon as we can
CorNouws hmm, curious
louis_to Final for today: elections....
jpmcc I've been talking to the Beijing team - I'll have a proposal by the end of the week
CorNouws elections fro what?
louis_to I'd like to propose we hold elections for CC members who are project leads
louis_to I'll send out the proposed schedule this week
louis_to I'd like to see if we can start the process then or early next week. It will take a couple of weeks
stx12 let's move specs to accepted project first too.
louis_to stx12: hm
louis_to stx12: I had discussions with the specs lead when I was in Hamburg
stx12 and?
louis_to they declined to move; said it was a mistake
* stx12 is surprised
louis_to the conversation was good--we need, very much, to promote specs--
Thalion72 has there been an official request?
louis_to but they were not sure it merited or would benefit form being acepted
CorNouws apart from that (or not) no need to wait for that?
louis_to Thalion72: they had sent me an official request
Thalion72 ah - ok
louis_to I asked, why?
CorNouws should that infulence the shedule for cc elections
stx12 and now they are daunted :-)
louis_to CorNouws: it wouldn't but stx12 wanted to finish pending business
louis_to stx12: not at all, at least not by me :-)
Thalion72 CorNouws: no (and I don't see how this is related)
Thalion72 we will always have pending business :)
CorNouws so let? talk about elections
jpmcc btw I thought the way the ux project was promoted showed the community working well and could servfe as a model for the future
louis_to jpmcc: how so? It merely followed the protocols....
louis_to ie, it wasn't the first and won't be the last...
mhu well thats a good start, isnt it?
jpmcc apologies for the diversion - you were talking about elections...
louis_to yes. AI me, to send the proposal for project lead elections. any disagreements?
louis_to (they are a year overdue or so)
Thalion72 no
CorNouws agree
paveljanik yes, ok
mhu okay
Thalion72 (rather two if not two)
jpmcc +1
stx12 go ahead
louis_to okay
louis_to unless there is more business , I'd like to adjourn today. I'd like to focus for next meeting on trademark issues/policy
louis_to and OOoCon
Thalion72 +1
CorNouws I'll add some on the maling list
jpmcc Are we finished 2 minutes early ?????????? O:-)
CorNouws Yes, leaving now, Good bye all.
*** CorNouws has left the channel ()
mhu yes, and can we agree on a meeting date and time at leat 24h before.
paveljanik if we have 2 minutes, I'd like to ...
paveljanik late ;-)
_nesshof_ when will next meeting be ?
stx12 no, we have to find a date and time - this will take the next 2 hours
Thalion72 jpmcc: those two minutes are planned to get a beer ;)
jpmcc ;-)
louis_to I propose in three weeks---Tuesday or Thursday
paveljanik I'd like to change completely our time management method.
stx12 paveljanik: yes?
paveljanik meeting times should be not only proposed and voted on, but later announced.
paveljanik there was no announcement of this meeting
Thalion72 1st of April? 
paveljanik there was no timezone attached to 19:00
paveljanik thus we all were just guessing that it is 19:00 UTC
stx12 paveljanik: i think we - incl louis_to - agree on that
louis_to paveljanik: are you going to continue to complain?
Thalion72 UTC is written at the Agenda page
louis_to :-)
paveljanik louis_to: no
paveljanik louis_to: I want to see the oslution
paveljanik I do not want to complain
paveljanik I'm used to some method to arrange meetings and the method we use right now is NONSENSE.
louis_to then let's see if we can agree on 1 April for now and refine it later, but not later than 1 week. 
jpmcc 19:00 UTC Thurs March 27th? I'd really like the OOoCon stuff before Easter - maybe we can do it on list
louis_to jpmcc: agreed; we will have to do a lot on the list, anyway
mhu actually, I do agree with Pavel. I have more meetings than this, and cant always shift others in favor of this one. So some better planning is required.
louis_to my concern is that easter is a big holiday
paveljanik jpmcc: that time is OK for me.
Thalion72 jpmcc: the time is ok .. but it is actually after Easter
mhu thu mar 27 is fine for me as well
louis_to mhu, pavel: I have created google calendar to which all have total control; and you are free to suggest times
stx12 i will be on vacation the thursday before easter weekend
jpmcc Why don't we diarise to meet every two weeks on Thursdays? it's always easier to cancel a meeting than arrange one?
louis_to for now, agreeing on a date is required. 
louis_to jpmcc: that was once the goal
mhu stx12: 27 is after easter
stx12 oops; looking at a calender with holidays may help...
louis_to okay, next meeting is 27 March, 19:00 UTC, unless otherwise noted. Changes should be made at least four days in advance and the list notified.
paveljanik ok, proposal - voting - announcement.
paveljanik can we at least agree on this principle?
louis_to the google calendar should be updated to reflect this
jpmcc and every two weeks after that?
paveljanik e.g. this meeting was proposed.
paveljanik some people voted on it
paveljanik none announced the agreed time.
stx12 and there is no chance to meet earlier in the day? 
mhu louis_to: is the a howto for that damn google calendar?
* stx12 is sorry to ask this
louis_to mhu; it's a puzzle
louis_to stx12; issue was firewall
stx12 jpmcc's firewall? 
louis_to stx12: we can meet before work, if you don't mind meeting at, say, 6 AM
louis_to stx12: yes; andre, too
jpmcc louis_to: I hate to admit this, but I now carry me EeePC with me so the firewall is not an issue for me now...
louis_to :-)
louis_to so, let's arrange a better time, which we can discuss on list: it's 5 minutes beyond end time
stx12 we only need Thalion72's opinion
Thalion72 well .. I can easily agree on 6 am (as long as we start electoins for project lead members soon)
louis_to but I'd guess that 15:00, if Thalion72 can do it...
mhu okay, bye for now. Have a good evening / day everyone.
louis_to mhu: bye...
Thalion72 no way before 17:00 UTC for me (or early in the morning)
*** mhu has quit IRC ("Ex-Chat")
Thalion72 bye mhu
louis_to meeting adjourned; we will discuss time for next and subsequent meetins onlist
louis_to okay, we'll work out a compromise; 17:30 is probably okay
Thalion72 +1
stx12 17:30 UTC sounds much more friendly to me compared to 19:00 
jpmcc louis_to: internet reception is not very reliable on the bus ;-)
paveljanik is 17:30 acceptable for you louis_to ?
louis_to of course
louis_to even a meeting at 0600 UTC is
louis_to but thanks for asking
paveljanik louis_to: what is your timezone?
paveljanik (at home)
louis_to so, 17:30 27 March and thence every fortnight
louis_to -0500
louis_to but I got to sleep very late
Thalion72 so next meeting march 27, 17:30 UTC (and every 2 weeks from that on)
paveljanik +1
louis_to yes.
jpmcc I'd also like to discuss audioconference as an alternative (but not now)
stx12 thanks, all; let's see whether sophie and others can make
louis_to unless otherwise noted, in which case, warning 4 days in advance to the list and there must be some sort of receipt of reading
Thalion72 ok
louis_to thanks all...
*** jpmcc has quit IRC ("night night")
paveljanik bye
stx12 bye all
Thalion72 bye
louis_to bye all