Community Council Minutes 20071122
Minutes and IRC log of 2007-11-22 Community Council Meeting
- Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof__)
- Stefan Taxhet (stx12)
- Sophie Gautier (sophi)
- Pavel Janík (paveljanik)
- Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
- Laurent Godard (lgodard)
- Louis Suarez-Potts (louis_to)
- Absent: John McCreesh
- Absent: André Schnabel
IRC meeting commences
09:09:05 louis_to okay, shall we start? My guess is that John cannot make it, as he's firewalled out
09:09:32 louis_to I think we will have to arrange a better time for john in the future, should he stay on the council.
09:09:42 sophi ok
09:09:45 louis_to the very short agenda is at
09:12:15 louis_to update on elections:
09:12:49 louis_to I rec'd Cor's short bio yesterday afternoon and Khiirano's a wihle ago. I will send out the summary page and instructions shortly...
09:12:51 louis_to but..
09:13:09 louis_to the PHP script that Cristian Driga used last time no longer works; his server has been replaced
09:13:17 lgodard we have only 2 candidates ?
09:13:21 louis_to we need to fix that script OR just use email
09:13:22 louis_to yes.
09:13:33 louis_to lgodard: you have a third?
09:13:36 louis_to 2 is okay.
09:14:00 lgodard florian, but i don't know if he is elligible
09:14:03 *** _Nesshof__ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
09:14:05 louis_to but as I also expressed on p_leads, more would be have been nicer--more losers, say
09:14:18 louis_to florian is a project lead: of marketing (and then more)
09:14:43 lgodard ok, so no problem. was just a thought
09:14:47 louis_to :-)
09:15:00 louis_to so: if anyone can do PHP scripting, please help.
09:15:06 lgodard for vote procedure, mail is fine providing it is anonymous
09:15:09 louis_to I asked Cdriga for precisely what is needed
09:15:18 lgodard (no archives publically available)
09:15:25 louis_to mail is okay--not really fine--just okay
09:15:30 louis_to for two, it's manageable
09:15:46 louis_to but yes. We've done this before via mail and it worked tolerably well
09:15:47 sophi louis_to: tell us what is needed for the script
09:15:57 louis_to I will, once I hear from cristian
09:16:09 sophi louis_to: ok
09:16:10 lgodard if php based, i guess cusoon may help
09:16:23 sophi lgodard: yes, I think so too
09:16:26 louis_to either way, voting won't happen until next week, probably Wed., as we have to advertise the candidates
09:17:08 louis_to notes that the problem with mail is that I cannot feasibly check "membership" but must rely on subscription.
09:17:38 louis_to it's not a big issue. Mail still denies double voting, provided everyone has only one subscription and is honest
09:18:48 louis_to Once the CCR vote is done we can have the project_leads vote
09:18:55 louis_to (or even slightly before then)
09:19:28 louis_to okay, point 2: boosting involvement
09:19:37 louis_to I meant by that involvement in CC
09:20:25 louis_to we discussed this in Barcelona. Do we have any clever (or not) ideas?
09:20:42 mhu louis_to: what do we do when cdriga's infrastructure is not available?
09:20:42 louis_to eg, using more public mail lists (announce, discuss, etc.)
09:20:48 louis_to mhu: mail
09:21:07 mhu is this really a good resolution? others?
09:21:21 louis_to mhu: as I was saying, no.
09:21:30 louis_to it is not a good resolution. but it is tolerable
09:21:43 louis_to I do not anticipate cheating
09:21:57 stx12 i think it might be helpful to be a bit more decisive and effective. elections is a good example:
09:22:10 stx12 how long do we wait for cristian?
09:22:19 louis_to zero days
09:22:28 louis_to I move ahead with the advertisiement
09:22:34 paveljanik Can we setup a apache+PHP on ooo.services?
09:22:36 louis_to if cdridga is able to come up with the thing great
09:22:39 louis_to if not, mail
09:22:51 louis_to stx12: your example is not so good after all :-)
09:23:10 stx12 the server (survey.s.ooo or ooo.s.ooo) are available
09:23:32 paveljanik and is some PHP running there already?
09:23:42 paveljanik if so, can Christian work there directly?
09:23:45 louis_to if we can set them up to handle a vote, then let's use them, provided they can have the same capability of evaluating OOo members
09:23:48 stx12 yes, the point is to get a voting system running.
09:23:57 mhu I think we should work with cdriga and cusoon to get the election infrastructure up and running. I dont want elections via email.
09:24:21 louis_to mhu: no one does but I am not about to delay this again :-)
09:24:47 louis_to expected election would be Wednesday or Thurs.
09:25:07 stx12 i think there are about 400,000 people allowed to vote, right?
09:25:11 lgodard i may have something as a voting system
09:25:18 lgodard querying ben
09:25:50 lgodard louis_to: the goal would be to control the membership of OOo ?
09:25:59 lgodard of/in
09:26:29 stx12 we don't need too strong restrictions; last time we placed the link on the OOo start page and checked the referrer
09:26:30 louis_to lgodard: for this, it's not so important, but something like that. It's also easier to tally votes, though that is a minor point
09:26:56 louis_to stx12: I don't now the latest but it's probably closer to 600K now
09:27:27 louis_to but I really don't see an issue. If history is a guide, we won't have even 1000 votes and more like 500, at most
09:28:22 louis_to so who wants to own this AI?
09:28:46 louis_to lgodard: you are checking with cusoon? stx12: can you find out on .services and work with cdriga?
09:28:49 lgodard i just asked ben
09:28:51 sophi louis_to: wait a minute lgodard discuss with Ben
09:28:54 louis_to k
09:29:01 lgodard he can setup a simple voting system in 0.5 day
09:29:14 lgodard +text files
09:29:19 lgodard hosted by cusoon
09:29:21 louis_to super
09:29:27 lgodard so it may be a backup solution
09:29:34 lgodard if cdriga ddoes not answer
09:29:35 sophi lgodard: ok, Tony will help too I'm sure
09:29:38 louis_to it would have to check against the large text file of usernames...
09:29:49 louis_to but this is great
09:30:12 stx12 louis_to: we don't have a list of usernames, do we?
09:30:32 louis_to we'd have to get the latest, either via SQL command or from CN
09:30:39 lgodard louis_to: can be done a posteriori, while processing results
09:30:47 louis_to lgodard: right
09:31:02 lgodard louis_to: then the voting system is quite light
09:31:17 stx12 let's use the email addresses; we have them without further need for CN's cooperation
09:31:18 louis_to chapeau ;-(
09:31:22 louis_to I meant :-)
09:31:31 louis_to oikay.
09:32:08 louis_to so, I'll send out the advertisement today to the lists--get public--and remind. Election then for Wednesday.
09:32:37 sophi louis_to: ok
09:32:41 lgodard okk
09:32:46 louis_to We can use this too, if Cusoon is agreeable, for project leads and other things?
09:32:56 stx12 i think we should have an idea what the infrastructure looks like first.
09:32:56 louis_to thanks, lgodard!
09:33:03 sophi louis_to: yes, once in place, it can run :)
09:33:20 lgodard stx12: there is a demo
09:33:24 stx12 shall i contact cristian or are we going ahead with cusoon?
09:33:39 stx12 lgodard: do you have a link=
09:33:41 stx12 lgodard: do you have a link?
09:33:45 lgodard http://mooouette.tuxfamily.org/
09:33:50 lgodard but the vote is over
09:34:23 lgodard i i asked ben to reactivate it
09:35:08 stx12 lgodard: good! then let's introduce a simple check for project memebership and we can start.
09:35:50 lgodard stx12: add the ooo login name
09:36:05 louis_to okay, shall we move on to the next item?
09:36:10 lgodard and check if not already
09:36:22 stx12 shall i contact cristian or are we going ahead with cusoon?
09:36:33 lgodard or store it and discard it when processinf result if not ok
09:36:40 lgodard so no need to control
09:36:41 louis_to I think cdriga needs to be contacted anyway
09:37:02 lgodard ben just re-opened the vote
09:37:21 lgodard it is multichoice, but can be single vote
09:37:38 louis_to stx12, lgodard can you discuss the details separately?
09:38:19 lgodard ok
09:38:38 louis_to so, back to "boosting involvement"...
09:38:41 stx12 louis_to: sure, so we go ahead with the cusoon solution.
09:38:48 louis_to thanks, stx12
09:39:07 stx12 one last question; is this lgodard's or my AI?
09:39:59 stx12 thinks elections were a good example
09:40:19 louis_to both
09:40:55 louis_to lgodard did his immediately but needs to follow up; you are to contact cdriga and also evaluate the cusoon arrangement; cddriga may work with you
09:41:01 louis_to is that fair?
09:41:34 lgodard ok for me, i will see with ben this week end (can't before)
09:41:35 stx12 sorry, i'll do what you say; but i'm in favour of 1 responsible owner.
09:41:53 louis_to if you want to own it all, fine; it's effectively the case anyway
09:42:06 louis_to lgodard has pretty much done his...
09:42:09 lgodard no problem for me, i'ml just here to help
09:42:11 louis_to thanks
09:42:19 louis_to okay, AI: stefan
09:42:34 stx12 lgodard: i need ben's email address
09:42:36 lgodard stx12: i'll inform you for a demo
09:43:35 stx12 lgodard: thx; i have it
09:43:50 louis_to some ideas about boosting involvement are to make this CC more public. I think there are some others we can consider:
09:43:56 louis_to * advertising what we are doing
09:44:09 louis_to (besides nothing0
09:44:15 louis_to that was a joke...
09:44:41 louis_to suggesting bigger themes that might excite members....
09:45:13 louis_to the new mission statement program that Buce D'Arcus mentioned on p_leads is a small example
09:45:20 *** _Nesshof___ (email@example.com) has joined the channel
09:45:42 _Nesshof___ did I miss something ?
09:46:16 louis_to _Nesshof_I can email u transcripts now.
09:46:25 louis_to or side channel
09:46:28 _Nesshof___ last thing I got was the big themes issue ?
09:46:32 louis_to ->_Nesshof_: ping
09:46:38 _Nesshof___ what is an example for a good theme ?
09:47:08 louis_to hiring developers to fix persistent bugs
09:47:28 louis_to which bugs? how to evaluate?
09:47:41 louis_to also, hiring them to add features: same problem
09:47:51 louis_to the cc can intervene here by suggesting and setting the policy
09:47:57 lgodard we did that for hsql ?
09:48:12 louis_to lgodard: yes and no
09:48:22 louis_to we authorized putting a sign up for money for them
09:48:40 louis_to we also authorized sophie to hire or find a developer for the critieria
09:49:10 louis_to but we have not addressed direclty the idea of the CC promoting community interest in this fashion
09:49:49 _Nesshof___ I'm a little bit sceptic wrt hiring developer for fixing bugs or developing features
09:49:51 louis_to also, allocating funds for other meritorious things, such as for students : again, this may excite interest b/c it would be materially relevant
09:50:00 _Nesshof___ the learning curve is pretty high
09:50:17 louis_to _Nesshof_: the point is to excite the interest, not necessarily actually fix them :-)
09:50:22 louis_to though if that occurs, great
09:50:46 mhu if we want to spend money on developers, instead of hiring, how about some "bounty program" or "GSoC equivalent" to attract talent?
09:50:55 louis_to +1, too
09:51:11 sophi mhu: yes +1
09:51:20 lgodard +1
09:51:22 louis_to and with students direclty; I'll be sending a report on that shortly to pleads, but it's quite promising: to fund schoosl
09:51:25 lgodard who builds ?
09:51:26 louis_to schools
09:51:29 _Nesshof___ hiring people on regular basis may also be a problem, a bounty program maybe more feasible
09:51:35 lgodard the program ? chooses ?
09:52:11 louis_to lgodard: that's exactly the point: to involve the community in the process so that these issues--who chooses, etc.--can be seen as having relevance and material consequences
09:52:49 mhu lgodard: no idea yet, maybe a "subcommittee" of the CC / ESC / ...
09:53:32 louis_to or an ad hoc committee: let's see: the community should step up if it is interested; and it should be interested
09:53:50 lgodard proposed by people, based on IZ votes ?
09:53:52 louis_to and the CC can simply also be the final arbiter, as a check/balance
09:54:01 louis_to lgodard; that would have to be worked out
09:54:39 louis_to notes: this is brainstorming to find ideas to involve people in the governance of the project
09:54:40 lgodard yes
09:56:26 louis_to other ideas?
09:56:38 louis_to or should we use the list for more....?
09:56:49 louis_to but : stx12?, paveljanik?
09:58:18 sophi may be we can have something like launchpad.net to make more proeminent the participation
09:58:41 sophi see https://launchpad.net/~tonio/+participation
09:59:18 louis_to Hm. But what is in it for OOo people?
09:59:51 louis_to believes that participation depends finally on interest: if the community is interested--stands to gain/lose, they participate. if it is just as spectators: they do not
10:00:07 sophi louis_to: I find the JCA list not reflecting the real contributions, I think we need something that allow contributors to be seen
10:00:11 louis_to and if they can affect that gain/loss, they will surely participate
10:00:36 louis_to sophi: good point. who wants to take that on?
10:00:58 stx12 which leads to the requirement for support in project specific tooling like credit list, "featured participation", ...
10:01:22 sophi stx12: yes
10:02:21 sophi there is already several project on launchpad https://launchpad.net/projects
10:02:25 louis_to stx12: I'm not sure I fully aware of what you mean...
10:02:31 sophi but I really don't know the tool
10:03:45 *** _Nesshof_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:03:52 stx12 i have no specific tool in mind; bnut people would be more encouraged if they get credit, are listed prominently, we highlight valuable contributions, ...
10:04:26 sophi yes and not only code one :)
10:04:30 louis_to ah. okay, shall we then assign an AI that encompasses this?
10:04:35 louis_to ie, who wants to own this?
10:04:39 louis_to _Nesshof___?
10:04:46 stx12 i though of working on this and support the outcome it with some tooling (which has to be implemented)
10:04:48 louis_to or Louis?
10:04:56 louis_to stx12?
10:05:18 stx12 meanbing we (the CC) represented by louis_to or _Nesshof___ :-)
10:05:42 louis_to agreed, plus others who want to join :-)
10:06:03 louis_to but I can own this and include _Nesshof___ and whoever else...
10:06:49 louis_to it's pretty important. I don't really believe, however, that simply recognition will make the diff but it will help in establishing a community for real contribution and participation
10:06:50 _Nesshof___ louis_to: ok
10:06:52 louis_to thanks
10:07:21 lgodard louis_to: maybe future CCR will join this AI
10:07:25 louis_to So, in the interest of time... we can continue with other ideas under the banner of increasing involvmement in the governance on list
10:07:28 louis_to yes!
10:07:37 louis_to hopes lgodard wlll anyway
10:08:52 louis_to I'd like to move on to the next item over, skipping team OOo accountability for right now
10:09:47 lgodard why skeipping ?
10:09:52 paveljanik why?
10:10:37 louis_to just b/c adding nonvoting members is close to boosting involvement as both relate to CC issues directly
10:10:53 louis_to reason of logical continuity
10:11:21 louis_to but if you want to stick with the order of items on the wiki, that's fine; I put them there more or less randomly, as I thought of them
10:12:26 louis_to so: in order, Team OOo accountability
10:12:35 mhu we're well beyond the hour, shall we discontinue the meeting for today?
10:12:51 louis_to mhu: hm.
10:13:22 louis_to it would be nice to finish these items if only briefly and discussed on list; we can also meet next week if need be
10:13:37 mhu this has nothing to do with the topic :-) It's only b/c I still have a day job.
10:14:07 louis_to I'd like to go until half past the hour; then hard end
10:14:18 sophi louis_to: ok
10:14:30 mhu okay, that's at least a defined end; agreed.
10:14:54 louis_to so, sophi, stx12: do you have a report on the issue, eg, a timeline for when some accounting can be represented on the CC page?
10:15:07 louis_to the issue is probably better understood as being stx12's.
10:15:35 sophi me no, but if stx12 send me data I will be able to provide something :)
10:15:58 stx12 iirc they first AI was to describe what team ooo is in general.
10:16:33 louis_to it's a start..
10:16:57 louis_to but the larger issue is to understand what the funds are doing and have a sense of quantity.
10:17:01 sophi stx12: it's already somewhere on the site
10:17:14 sophi louis_to: yes
10:17:18 louis_to it can be put on the CC homepage
10:17:29 louis_to but having a better sense of funds and how they are managed is helpful
10:17:49 louis_to as it gives the community an understanding of what is possible to imagine
10:18:42 _Nesshof___ http://council.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=discuss&msgNo=1131
10:18:56 sophi louis_to: yes, the last news was that Charles has to collect the needs from the projects concerning the amount of money left by last year
10:19:04 stx12 i have to repeat that we had a budget of 70,000 EUR for 2007. and the more pressing point still is INO to create the "funding team".
10:19:10 sophi if I remember well
10:19:46 louis_to recommends then that we post this to the CC homepage. I can do that.
10:20:14 louis_to as to a funding team: who wants to own that?
10:20:22 stx12 what is "this"?
10:20:43 louis_to budget available for 2007
10:21:01 louis_to basically, the contents of the message _Nesshof___ pointed us to
10:21:11 louis_to it can go with an explanation of what Team Ooo is
10:21:20 louis_to the issue: to make this available on the CC pages
10:21:36 sophi louis_to: Charles was already owning this AI I think along with stx12
10:22:02 stx12 better an invitation to join the grants team and proposals for processing of requests, ...
10:22:17 louis_to grants team?
10:22:28 stx12 yes, i raised this with charles during his visit in hamburg.
10:22:44 louis_to it would be nice to see this on the CC lists.
10:22:51 louis_to b/c I don't recall reading it
10:23:04 stx12 the group working on the priority of requests.
10:23:06 sophi louis_to: it's on a list but I can't remember which
10:23:10 _Nesshof___ stx12: so you think of a marekting grant team, a porting grant team, ...
10:23:12 _Nesshof___ ?
10:23:37 louis_to _Nesshof___ well, from the action on it it seems that we need to raise visibility
10:24:23 stx12 _Nesshof___: this implies that funds are spread to projects; that woul dbe the first decision to be made whether we would like to handle it this way.
10:24:39 _Nesshof___ louis_to: how, by puttinh it on the CC homepage ?
10:24:59 _Nesshof___ stx12: agreed
10:25:04 louis_to yes, or in council.ooo anyway
10:25:13 _Nesshof___ who's going to do a proposal ?
10:25:29 louis_to more specificity is needed
10:25:35 _Nesshof___ obviously we were not able to do one in February
10:26:21 _Nesshof___ ok, I will do one for next meeting in two weeks, but then don't commplain
10:26:30 louis_to sophi, stx12: if you could point us to the trace of the conversations on the lists, that'd be very nice
10:26:49 sophi louis_to: I'll contact Charles
10:26:52 louis_to we are coming to the end of the meeting, so to resume...
10:26:54 louis_to thanks
10:27:24 louis_to * AI stx12: to summarize what team Ooo and how it works with OOo
10:27:46 louis_to AI : louis_to: to state the budget for 2007
10:28:06 louis_to AI: stx: contact charles and get info on the grants program
10:29:12 _Nesshof___ louis_to: I'm not in favor to write down numbers on homepages
10:29:47 stx12 louis_to: i don't think just listing the budget helps us. let's find a way to spend the budget beneficial for the project.
10:29:57 louis_to it need not be homepage; it could be, council..../funding/index.html
10:30:02 _Nesshof___ we need to define produres on how to spend money
10:30:32 louis_to stx12: I think people would certainly like to know rough estimates, eg, 50-100K
10:30:39 louis_to _Nesshof___: yes
10:30:47 _Nesshof___ before talking about on how much money to spend
10:31:00 louis_to we all have ideas and we can propose them to the CC list. but the grants program also seems to address that
10:31:04 louis_to _Nesshof___: why?
10:31:28 _Nesshof___ see our discussion on February: leads to nothing
10:31:56 louis_to _Nesshof___ I'll look it over
10:31:59 louis_to Time is up
10:32:47 louis_to the only disagreement on AIs related to this was mine, on publicizing the funds avail. I'll hold on that. But Stefan's AI on Team OOo is still there... yes?
10:32:48 sophi just one word the certifications criteria is in progress and discussed on the list and wiki
10:33:23 louis_to sophi: thanks. I also have news on this but can relate it to the list
10:33:41 sophi louis_to: ok, thanks
10:33:53 louis_to we can continue next meeting, in two weeks, and also on the list. We need to discuss the other points and add more :-)
10:34:07 louis_to are all agreed to adjourn the meeting now?
10:34:15 sophi louis_to: ok
10:35:32 louis_to if no one objects, meeting is adjourned...