Community Council Log 20091126

From Apache OpenOffice Wiki
Revision as of 14:37, 30 May 2010 by ChristophNoack (Talk | contribs)

(diff) ← Older revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Jump to: navigation, search
Community Council

The Community Council members are your representatives



Ideas related to the community? Tell us!

IRC Log of Community Council Meeting 2009-11-26


  • Christoph Noack (christoph_n)
  • Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof_)
  • Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
  • Cor Nouws (CorNouws)
  • Louis Suarez-Potts (oulipo_to)
  • Juergen Schmidt (jsc)
  • John McCreesh (jpmcc)
  • Pavel Janik (paveljanik)
  • Stefan Taxhet (stx12) (present for latter half)


  • Charles-H. Schulz
  • Time recorded is Eastern Standard Time, -05:00 UTC
[14:41:34] louis_to all in favour of starting now? only indicate if you are not in so favour
[14:41:41] jsc yes
[14:42:27] louis_to if no one is opposed, meeting begins, absent : Charles Schulz, Stefan Taxhet
[14:43:10] louis_to I assume we have all reviewed the agenda? it is:
[14:43:12] _Nesshof_ stefan is nnot able to join, see above
[14:43:24] louis_to yes; but he's still absent :-)
[14:43:26] louis_to
[14:43:35] louis_to "absent" is a neutral term
[14:44:19] _Nesshof_ louis_to: not in German ;-)
[14:44:21] louis_to Ah
[14:44:38] louis_to I assume we approve of the previous meeting's minutes?
[14:44:41] louis_to they are at
[14:45:00] louis_to no objections
[14:45:08] louis_to therefore let's move to current agenda
[14:45:19] louis_to Budget
[14:45:19] louis_to 	1.	Louis: will send list of events to plan the marketing budget shortly.
[14:45:22] jpmcc Apologies for late posting of the minutes
[14:45:59] louis_to Action on this: I sent a provisional list but I'd like to refine it, though I suspect that will be a continuing process. But for now, the provisional list that allows us to plan budget should work
[14:46:10] louis_to at least, it was indicated it did last meeting
[14:46:22] CorNouws Coorect, and so we used it
[14:46:43] jsc where  can i find this list?
[14:46:45] louis_to so, next step is to refine it and then I'd like to publish it on a wiki
[14:47:09] louis_to jsc: right now, in an email archive; but I want to publish a refined version oin a wilki
[14:47:16] CorNouws louis_to: with what purpose? 
[14:47:18] louis_to so that community can add
[14:47:36] CorNouws OK, for later financial planning and so..
[14:47:42] louis_to so that community can add those things they favour but we would retain editing power
[14:47:43] louis_to yes.
[14:48:04] louis_to there are always new events and old events that dissipate in importance
[14:48:13] jpmcc Cor: We need to work out how we best use Louis' list in preparing the overall MP budget submission
[14:48:45] * CorNouws Documentation project (Clayton CC) is working hard on improving wiki / Catagories - CC should have a look I think
[14:48:46] louis_to correct: the Gnome.Asia event proved that point, as it was as much a marketing event as anything else, and continues to be so
[14:49:07] louis_to CorNouws: point well taken!
[14:49:29] CorNouws louis_to: a point for all of us, BTW ;-)
[14:49:33] louis_to let us move on to 2.2: Trademark
[14:49:33] louis_to 	1.	ST to bring the proposal back to the trademark list,
[14:49:33] louis_to 	2.	review by the cc and then start on discuss@
[14:49:53] louis_to (Cor: I was not writing just for me.)
[14:50:23] louis_to ST is absent (away neutrally) so cannot present on this
[14:50:39] CorNouws louis_to: (then pls say that in Dutch ;-) )
[14:50:45] louis_to :-)
[14:51:14] louis_to (In English, had I wanted to specify self, I would have said, supposedly, "I take your point.", but not all would use that locution.)
[14:51:28] jsc 2.2 is difficult to comment on without further background info
[14:52:06] CorNouws jsc: Yes, as Louis said: since Stefan is not here, nothing to discuss now
[14:52:09] louis_to yes, which is why we are also moving on. But, briefly, there have been extensiive trademark discussions, and these in this phase ST has been leading.
[14:52:35] louis_to As the issue has been in coordinating trademark interests of the community with those of the key distributors, such as Debian
[14:53:29] louis_to resolutions and agreements have been reached, and these were reached at OOoCon, but ST was to present these finally to the list and continue there. If you and any of the others here in the CC are not members of trademark@, please let me know, and I'll add you
[14:53:52] christoph_n Please add me. Thanks!
[14:53:58] louis_to it is an invite-only list but if someone requests who has a trademark interest, I do not decline
[14:54:12] jsc yes, please add me
[14:54:22] louis_to will do; Charles is already a subscriber
[14:54:43] louis_to okay, issue tabled until next meeting; moving on to 2.3
[14:54:52] louis_to Elections
[14:54:52] louis_to 	1.	Update (council webpage, notification to broader community)
[14:54:54] jsc i think it make sense to become informed if such things will be discussed here
[14:55:08] jsc thanks
[14:56:15] louis_to so, the things to do with elections include:
[14:56:24] louis_to update the council webpage with the changes the election made
[14:56:34] louis_to 2. notify the community
[14:56:47] jsc i can update the council page if you want
[14:56:52] louis_to 3. initiate phase 2 of the new election
[14:57:02] louis_to jsc: you may indeed be asked to do that :-)
[14:57:14] jpmcc I think we also wanted to revamp the CC webpage to make it a bit more 'friendly' - photos of CC members etc ...
[14:57:30] louis_to go for it; i was going to today, per André's hint, but then was on the phone in a meeting for last 1.5 hours
[14:57:39] louis_to jpmcc: go for it
[14:57:51] louis_to not a matter of "friendly" as much as a matter of "useful"
[14:58:07] christoph_n Proposal: I would like to have a look at it, so would it be okay to do a "minor update" until then?
[14:58:14] louis_to photos help, esp. if we can fake old persons' with old photos not new ones :-)
[14:58:29] christoph_n black/white pictures? ;-)
[14:58:36] louis_to yes: the key point is to update the page to reflect the changes
[14:58:48] louis_to christoph_n: nay, dageuerreotypes
[14:59:37] louis_to but, jsc: AI to update the council webpage as suggested and then christoph_n and others to improve the page altogether, making it friendly and useful(er)
[14:59:50] louis_to that means we should all probably donate photos of ourselves
[14:59:57] louis_to or at least images
[15:00:07] jpmcc
[15:00:08] louis_to and we can even, if we want, start facebook (ugh)
[15:00:30] louis_to :-)
[15:00:35] louis_to okay, let's move on...
[15:00:35] _Nesshof_ jpmcc: :-)
[15:00:42] louis_to and discuss intiiating next election
[15:01:00] louis_to who is standing down for this next cycle?
[15:01:06] * jpmcc me
[15:01:18] louis_to paveljanik?
[15:02:05] louis_to ->paveljanik: ping
[15:02:12] CorNouws louis_to: afair: yes (he's probably doning some work)
[15:02:22] louis_to just pinged him
[15:02:30] * _Nesshof_ me
[15:02:34] louis_to okay
[15:02:50] louis_to wave next would be me, mhu
[15:02:59] mhu indeed
[15:03:14] CorNouws and me, already overdue nearly a year
[15:03:22] louis_to I would suggest then that we start the actual nomination process by end of next week and alert people that we shall be doing that
[15:03:41] louis_to CorNouws; I was not sure if you wanted to include your election with this wave or wait for a special CCR one
[15:03:44] louis_to but, okay
[15:03:51] mhu but, we wanted to leave some overlap to better transfer knowledge , right ?
[15:04:06] *** stx12 (n=st@ has joined the channel
[15:04:07] louis_to yes, that's why the final wave won't be until probably Feb. or March
[15:04:10] CorNouws louis_to: I was talking about the next after the next
[15:04:11] louis_to hello, stx12!!
[15:04:41] stx12 good evenig, sorry for joining late... and just go ahead...
[15:04:47] louis_to stx12: we are discussing elections and skipped over item 2.2
[15:04:57] mhu stx12: safely at home ?
[15:04:59] jsc hi stefan, i hope the car is running ...
[15:05:07] CorNouws hi Stefan - great your car is repaired
[15:05:18] christoph_n Hi Stefan!
[15:05:24] paveljanik Hi stx12
[15:05:29] stx12 yes, with the help of the nice man from the german automobile club
[15:05:30] louis_to _Nesshof_, jpmcc: are you planning on running again for office?
[15:05:58] louis_to I would guess that paveljanik is not....?
[15:06:14] _Nesshof_ louis_to: I'm looking for a replacement for me, but if if fail I might running again
[15:06:23] louis_to _Nesshof_, jpmcc: no need to answer now, but personally, I value your contributions
[15:06:26] paveljanik I want to be replaced too, yes.
[15:06:32] louis_to okay. 
[15:06:56] louis_to Can I ask that as part of the process, regardless of your future intentions, that you help in recruiting and informing new candidates?
[15:07:10] jpmcc but of course
[15:07:32] louis_to and I would suggest that we perhaps have, as once was sugagested, an open IRC meeting that would serve to inform and familiarize the community with what we do
[15:08:04] stx12 and if _Nesshof_ will not want to nominated we have to find a solution for the Team OOo board to be involved in the CC proceedings...
[15:08:48] louis_to We have the apparatus for SPI Advisor already in place, and Sophie and I are it; a similar office could be created for Team OOo
[15:09:08] jsc mmh, i am not sure if it helps but i ma at least a member of Team OOo
[15:10:10] louis_to okay, it may; but for now, I propose starting new elections with announcement for open candidacy next Thursday, with warning (alerts) this Friday
[15:10:20] mhu louis_to: that would be wrt budget, and I am still here ...
[15:10:20] louis_to to the usual big lists
[15:10:32] louis_to good :-)
[15:11:11] louis_to and further, I propose that we have an open meeting... perhaps a special one next Thursday as well? or week after?
[15:12:00] jsc with a special agenda?
[15:12:24] jsc or just focused on the upcoming election
[15:12:41] stx12 iirc martin proposed an open  section in the beginnig of our meetings
[15:12:52] louis_to focused on upcoming election, no real agenda except a couple of points, as we addressed at Orvieto:
[15:13:04] louis_to who we are, what we do, what the community wants to learn of us and do
[15:13:17] jsc ok, thanks
[15:13:32] louis_to so, shall we vote on these proposals?
[15:13:41] louis_to elections: friday start with warning beforehand
[15:14:01] louis_to and b) open irc meeting (special one) thursday
[15:14:04] CorNouws louis_to:  do you have indications that there is (a lot of) interest for this meeting already now?
[15:14:08] louis_to (sorry, changed days....)
[15:14:15] louis_to CorNouws: no
[15:14:33] CorNouws When I think at the OOoCOn Q&A ...
[15:14:35] louis_to so, if there is no interest, we have no meeting, and so must first determine interest....
[15:14:43] louis_to yes, but that's not really reprsentative, I hope
[15:14:51] CorNouws it tends to be one-way often, the wrong way as well :-)
[15:14:51] stx12 louis_to: i assume you discussed the final steps to close the old elections? this could raise some interest...
[15:15:07] louis_to stx12: which ones do you mean?
[15:15:22] stx12 message of the result to the broader community 
[15:15:23] louis_to doubtless, I omitted some and await your insight :-)
[15:15:27] louis_to yes.
[15:15:32] stx12 good
[15:15:40] CorNouws stx12: that might help yes!
[15:15:52] * stx12 goes back in his dog house
[15:16:10] louis_to and that will be sent out tomorrow; and jsc agreed to update the webpage; and christoph_n along with jpmcc to look at making webpage for council friendlier and more useful, including photos of us all
[15:16:30] louis_to but I do want a mechansim, such as asking people to sign up if they will be there.....
[15:17:04] louis_to I htink we can see what response we do get, just by sending out notes to discuss@ and other lively lists
[15:18:34] stx12 then go ahead and offer the first (half an) hour of the next meeting; i'm not sure whether we can commit to an additional evening!?
[15:19:27] _Nesshof_ stx12: no additional meeting, please
[15:19:44] louis_to do the rest agree with _Nesshof_?
[15:19:53] louis_to if so, then it would be the next meeting, not a special meeting
[15:19:53] _Nesshof_ an additional chanell ooocouncilpub for the first half of the hoer
[15:19:56] christoph_n And if we really run out of time, we may repeat that. This should be a suffucient "mechanism"....
[15:20:02] CorNouws stx12: yes, the first half hour is OK for me
[15:20:15] christoph_n stx12: Okay.
[15:20:16] louis_to okay, then first half hour of next meeting not a special meeting 
[15:20:32] mhu yes, half hour of meeting is fine with me, additional meeting slot difficult to find
[15:20:44] jsc fine for me as well
[15:20:45] paveljanik yes
[15:23:00] _Nesshof_ .
[15:23:15] mhu .
[15:23:25] louis_to so, regarding the other elements---notifce of election, call for nominations--the schedule is okay--?---and I'll send a draft that's a lot like the prior one, modulo the changes imposed by the diffs of roles and persons
[15:23:47] mhu schedule is fine for me
[15:23:50] stx12 and the mechanics of the election process...
[15:23:54] louis_to send draft to this list, that is
[15:23:57] louis_to yes.
[15:24:07] christoph_n okay
[15:24:41] louis_to stx12: what specific mechanics do you mean?
[15:24:54] jsc i am fine with it
[15:25:24] stx12 i'm too; but let's this time avoid confusion by inviting all people to vote
[15:25:36] jsc :-)
[15:26:33] CorNouws stx12: Yes. Only a note to the major lists, and full details to the lists where people are that may vote
[15:26:40] louis_to English is such a confusing language. stx12: do you mean, by *not* inviting all to vote, yes?
[15:27:11] louis_to because that was the confusing error before
[15:27:24] CorNouws louis_to:  Only a note to the major lists, and full details to the lists where people are that may vote
[15:27:29] stx12 louis_to: correct
[15:27:30] louis_to agreed
[15:27:39] * louis_to hates English
[15:28:04] louis_to English lacks coherence where it counts.....
[15:28:05] louis_to anyway
[15:28:14] * mhu thinks spanish would not make things easier :-)
[15:28:26] jsc louis_to: which language do you prefer?
[15:28:31] CorNouws My Italian is better ATM :-)
[15:28:34] louis_to actually, it would; but let's move back to either 2.2, trademark
[15:28:43] mhu :-)
[15:28:45] louis_to with stx12 giving short summary
[15:29:01] louis_to or move on to 2.4, internships
[15:29:11] louis_to stx12: can you supply the short summary?
[15:29:15] mhu right, lets move on
[15:29:26] CorNouws 2.4 nothing new to say
[15:29:35] louis_to CorNouws: hold on a second
[15:29:41] CorNouws Jürgen and I will work on it soon
[15:29:54] louis_to I'd like to finish 2.2
[15:30:18] stx12 i have yet looked in the orvieto minutes; the status has not much changed or than a restart of the guidelines for logo use to point directly to the site or unmodified product. 
[15:30:38] *** jpmcc has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[15:30:52] stx12 I would recommend to read john's minutes first and then i'm happy to update or hopefully provide news 
[15:31:11] stx12 btw, we should add new cc members to trademark@council (my AI)
[15:31:13] louis_to stx12: was there resolution of issues at Orvieto?
[15:31:20] louis_to stx12: yes, already agreed to do that
[15:31:26] stx12 where there issues? 
[15:31:30] louis_to if you want to do it, please go ahead
[15:31:53] *** jpmcc ( has joined the channel
[15:31:54] louis_to reconciliation of positions vis-a-vis OOo and distributor stakeholders
[15:31:55] stx12 yes, i will.
[15:32:09] louis_to add the new members? okay
[15:33:04] louis_to if no other update to 2.2, then indeed let's move onto 2.4
[15:33:09] stx12 there are concerns and there proposed solutions / workarounds; this will come up on trademark@ciuncil again soon
[15:33:16] louis_to ah, okay
[15:33:18] louis_to thanks
[15:33:28] louis_to so, 2.4: jsc and CorNouws will work in this
[15:33:49] louis_to fwiw, I'm to meet with Seneca people later next week
[15:34:20] louis_to and can say that there is lively interest in this sort of program (internships) in Vietnam and elsewhere
[15:35:24] louis_to so, I'd like to know --sure all would-- what sort of resources we have or will have at our disposal and what expectations we can promote
[15:35:49] louis_to but we can discuss this on the appropriate list, no?
[15:35:59] mhu yes
[15:36:03] jsc yes
[15:36:25] jpmcc is the "appropriate list" the Education project?
[15:36:33] louis_to jpmcc: my query, too
[15:36:53] mhu contests@marketing ?
[15:37:24] stx12 mentoring@<iforgottheproject> ? 
[15:37:26] jsc well i think we should combine this with the ongoing efforts in the education project anyway. Although the work with some individuals might be difficult
[15:37:42] jsc or we should at least check if it make sense to combine it
[15:37:59] mhu
[15:38:15] jpmcc I don't know whether the EP sees its remit as promoting the use of OOo in the education sector and/or educating new developers in OOo?
[15:38:20] CorNouws louis_to: "what expectations we can promote" ... remeber discussion at Orvieto?
[15:40:14] mhu wrt education project, not sure which way it is going / forking ... so, dont know whether that would be the right place to discuss
[15:40:16] louis_to I would suggest checking with education. I would rather they not entirely fork but rather work with the community and its aims. As it is, there is the OOo4kids
[15:40:55] louis_to and woudl rather bring them back in, or clarify their intentions.
[15:41:11] jsc you raise an important point. If they really want to fork we have to address this. 
[15:41:14] louis_to I dislike the current friction and would rather resolve it
[15:41:14] mhu yes, that would be best (bring them back)
[15:41:16] louis_to yes.
[15:41:42] louis_to but if they do not want to be brought back, then they are good to go, as it were, tho that would be unfortunate
[15:41:46] jsc we should remind the project lead about his role 
[15:42:01] mhu jsc: right
[15:42:03] jsc the edu project is too important from my point of view
[15:42:07] louis_to Indeed. but that is a differeernt discusison, perhaps?
[15:42:13] louis_to different discussion, I mean
[15:42:39] louis_to jsc: until recently, the education project was summarily ignored
[15:42:50] louis_to and when charles, sophie, I led it, it was simply marginal
[15:42:59] jsc the same is true for OOo4Kids beause the idea is not new and it is a sub project of the edu project
[15:43:14] louis_to however, I would as before like to centralize it so that it functions as the pivot for developer education, esp. of students
[15:43:29] louis_to OOo4kids is seen as a license fork, no?
[15:43:40] louis_to and that is unfortunate
[15:44:21] jsc it looks so but can we accept it? As i mentioned it is a sub project of the edu project
[15:44:25] louis_to so, I would propose that ideally we want mentoring@education but before we do that, we must clarify the role and function of the education project within the OOo enterprise
[15:44:28] jsc i think no
[15:44:30] CorNouws louis_to: as someone said: that is a different subject
[15:44:39] CorNouws apart from that: it is not on our agenda
[15:44:50] CorNouws so we can prepare that for another meeting ??
[15:44:57] louis_to CorNouws: right, but we are discussing now where the list is that we should discuss on
[15:45:09] louis_to and I'd rather not create a new list
[15:45:24] CorNouws Remeber the discussion we had in Orvieto about expectations?
[15:45:36] louis_to but for this particular discussion, it may make sense, then, to use something like mentoring@ooo
[15:45:38] mhu isn't the internship item related to this edu question ?
[15:45:54] * louis_to would much rather CorNouws actually spell out what he intends than to rely on the memory of those not there
[15:46:05] louis_to mhu: precisely
[15:46:30] jpmcc "Resource constraints in Sun mean there is no-one currently available. If Community funded a backfill could that release a core developer? Stefan recommends marketing activity should be directed at attracting extension developers rather than core. AI: Martin to put together a proposal for hiring a technical writer to document getting started on OOo development. Agreed to continue with...
[15:46:32] jpmcc ..."Winter of Code" - AI: Cor to own and cry for help if required."
[15:46:37] louis_to and to pretend it is not seems to me to re-iterate what I hope we do not want, the marginallization of education
[15:48:29] CorNouws jpmcc: thanks for quoting from the minutes ;-)
[15:48:30] jsc i suggest to move forward with and let us search the communication with the edu leads 
[15:50:04] louis_to I+1
[15:50:24] louis_to the issue here is that if we commit to a list X and then want to move to list Y, it's a pain
[15:51:06] louis_to but do we all agree to use the new list, mentoring@ooo for now?
[15:51:28] mhu okay to go ahead ( I seem to be subscribed to both mentoring@ and contests@  :-) )
[15:52:08] louis_to no doubt; I may have set up mentoring back in 2001.... when i filed an issue against _Nesshof_ to lead this :-)
[15:52:19] louis_to but cannot recall
[15:52:24] jsc louis_to: sorry for the confusion, i can live with contest@... as well
[15:52:38] louis_to CorNouws: do you have a preference?
[15:53:04] jsc but it seems that mentoring@... is not new and we can use it ;-
[15:53:39] CorNouws no
[15:53:40] louis_to ping to others... wake up? 
[15:54:08] louis_to Then, for this, I'd like us to use and keep contests@ for... contests
[15:54:17] christoph_n I'm fine with mentoring...
[15:54:20] louis_to and if and when it is better to use education lists, to migrte discusssions there
[15:54:36] mhu +1
[15:54:39] louis_to any objections to useing mentoring@ ?
[15:54:49] _Nesshof_ no
[15:54:51] stx12 no
[15:55:01] jsc no
[15:55:03] christoph_n no
[15:55:41] paveljanik no
[15:55:51] mhu no
[15:55:54] louis_to okay, I'd like to add an agenda item: to inform and reconcile with the goals of the overall Project the leads of the Education Project.
[15:56:31] mhu yes
[15:56:36] CorNouws louis_to: for one of the next meetings: +1
[15:56:41] louis_to implicit here is to listen to objections, issues, etc.; and then to see about moving forward with a program that brings in the efforts of the edu project
[15:56:49] jsc thanks, it's really important form my point of view
[15:56:53] louis_to yes; it will take a good time
[15:57:00] CorNouws have to leave soon
[15:57:15] CorNouws its important, but not urgent
[15:57:18] jpmcc I have to be away by 21:00 UTC
[15:57:23] louis_to the conditions are that our goals, etc. need to be clarified, as do the conditions that violate them
[15:57:33] CorNouws better prepare our selves well before starting a chaotic discussion
[15:57:35] louis_to okay, shall we table the rest of the items?
[15:57:59] jsc +1
[15:58:02] louis_to yes, that's why I think we need to be prepared with our specific goals and be prepared to offer guidance as well as willing ears
[15:58:07] CorNouws I'm rather interested when you will finish your  AI's ...
[15:58:12] louis_to For now, I'd like to add this AI
[15:58:16] louis_to "your"=Louis?
[15:58:21] CorNouws No not a new one pls
[15:58:30] CorNouws the old ones first
[15:58:34] louis_to now that I'm no longer stuck on a plane in economy, probably sooner than later :-)
[15:58:39] CorNouws louis_to: yes of course
[15:59:01] * louis_to thought that stx12: was our new nanny? ;-)
[15:59:19] mhu let's finish for now, it's getting late ...
[15:59:19] stx12 sure, but that doesn't close AIs...
[15:59:46] CorNouws all CC members have the right to ask for decent handling
[15:59:48] louis_to okay, for me, the drafts, etc., by Tuesday
[16:00:24] jpmcc Tues 01 Dec 09?
[16:00:24] louis_to meanwhile, I'd urge the rest of us to review the AIs and provide an update
[16:00:29] jsc for me the update of the CC site, Louis can you send me the info which project i have to checkout for the web site?
[16:00:37] louis_to I'd also like to see if we can use a wiki to update our AIs, as I use in other projects
[16:00:41] louis_to that is quite convenient
[16:00:46] stx12 jsc: council/www
[16:00:47] jsc and give me the necessary permissions if i don't have them already
[16:00:54] jsc thanks
[16:01:33] CorNouws have to leave now ... thanks to all, all :-) bye bye
[16:01:34] louis_to all of you should have access (content dev) to the council stie, or if not content dev, then an equivalent role
[16:01:40] *** CorNouws has left the channel ()
[16:01:42] jsc bye Cor
[16:01:50] stx12 bye
[16:01:51] jpmcc Must go too I'm afraid - I can catch up via the log
[16:01:53] louis_to regarding wiki for AIs.... I think it's useful to have an arragement like that
[16:01:59] *** jpmcc has quit IRC ("Night night")
[16:02:14] *** mhu has quit IRC ("bye, good night evening afternoon ...")
[16:02:15] louis_to but for now, I'd like to call the meeting adjourned and table remaining AIs and items for next meeting
Personal tools