Community Council Minutes 20071122
Minutes (IRC log) of 2007-11-22 Community Council Meeting
irc.freenode.net #OOocouncil 08:45:16 11/22/07
09:09:05 okay, shall we start? My guess is that John cannot make it, as he's firewalled out
09:09:32 I think we will have to arrange a better time for john in the future, should he stay on the council.
09:09:42 ok
09:09:45 the very short agenda is at
09:09:59 http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/The_OpenOffice.org_Community_Council_Agenda
09:12:15 update on elections:
09:12:49 I rec'd Cor's short bio yesterday afternoon and Khiirano's a wihle ago. I will send out the summary page and instructions shortly...
09:12:51 but..
09:13:09 the PHP script that Cristian Driga used last time no longer works; his server has been replaced
09:13:17 we have only 2 candidates ?
09:13:21 we need to fix that script OR just use email
09:13:22 yes.
09:13:33 lgodard: you have a third?
09:13:36 2 is okay.
09:14:00 florian, but i don't know if he is elligible
09:14:03 _Nesshof__ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
09:14:05 but as I also expressed on p_leads, more would be have been nicer--more losers, say
09:14:18 florian is a project lead: of marketing (and then more)
09:14:43 ok, so no problem. was just a thought
09:14:47 :-)
09:15:00 so: if anyone can do PHP scripting, please help.
09:15:06 for vote procedure, mail is fine providing it is anonymous
09:15:09 I asked Cdriga for precisely what is needed
09:15:18 (no archives publically available)
09:15:25 mail is okay--not really fine--just okay
09:15:30 for two, it's manageable
09:15:46 but yes. We've done this before via mail and it worked tolerably well
09:15:47 louis_to: tell us what is needed for the script
09:15:57 I will, once I hear from cristian
09:16:09 louis_to: ok
09:16:10 if php based, i guess cusoon may help
09:16:23 lgodard: yes, I think so too
09:16:26 either way, voting won't happen until next week, probably Wed., as we have to advertise the candidates
09:17:08 notes that the problem with mail is that I cannot feasibly check "membership" but must rely on subscription.
09:17:38 it's not a big issue. Mail still denies double voting, provided everyone has only one subscription and is honest
09:18:48 Once the CCR vote is done we can have the project_leads vote
09:18:55 (or even slightly before then)
09:19:28 okay, point 2: boosting involvement
09:19:37 I meant by that involvement in CC
09:20:25 we discussed this in Barcelona. Do we have any clever (or not) ideas?
09:20:42 louis_to: what do we do when cdriga's infrastructure is not available?
09:20:42 eg, using more public mail lists (announce, discuss, etc.)
09:20:48 mhu: mail
09:21:07 is this really a good resolution? others?
09:21:21 mhu: as I was saying, no.
09:21:30 it is not a good resolution. but it is tolerable
09:21:43 I do not anticipate cheating
09:21:57 i think it might be helpful to be a bit more decisive and effective. elections is a good example:
09:22:10 how long do we wait for cristian?
09:22:19 zero days
09:22:28 I move ahead with the advertisiement
09:22:34 Can we setup a apache+PHP on ooo.services?
09:22:36 if cdridga is able to come up with the thing great
09:22:39 if not, mail
09:22:51 stx12: your example is not so good after all :-)
09:23:10 the server (survey.s.ooo or ooo.s.ooo) are available
09:23:32 and is some PHP running there already?
09:23:42 if so, can Christian work there directly?
09:23:45 if we can set them up to handle a vote, then let's use them, provided they can have the same capability of evaluating OOo members
09:23:48 yes, the point is to get a voting system running.
09:23:57 I think we should work with cdriga and cusoon to get the election infrastructure up and running. I dont want elections via email.
09:24:21 mhu: no one does but I am not about to delay this again :-)
09:24:47 expected election would be Wednesday or Thurs.
09:25:07 i think there are about 400,000 people allowed to vote, right?
09:25:11 i may have something as a voting system
09:25:18 querying ben
09:25:50 louis_to: the goal would be to control the membership of OOo ?
09:25:59 of/in
09:26:29 we don't need too strong restrictions; last time we placed the link on the OOo start page and checked the referrer
09:26:30 lgodard: for this, it's not so important, but something like that. It's also easier to tally votes, though that is a minor point
09:26:56 stx12: I don't now the latest but it's probably closer to 600K now
09:27:27 but I really don't see an issue. If history is a guide, we won't have even 1000 votes and more like 500, at most
09:28:22 so who wants to own this AI?
09:28:46 lgodard: you are checking with cusoon? stx12: can you find out on .services and work with cdriga?
09:28:49 i just asked ben
09:28:51 louis_to: wait a minute lgodard discuss with Ben
09:28:54 k
09:29:01 he can setup a simple voting system in 0.5 day
09:29:10 based on php+javascript
09:29:14 +text files
09:29:19 hosted by cusoon
09:29:21 super
09:29:27 so it may be a backup solution
09:29:34 if cdriga ddoes not answer
09:29:35 lgodard: ok, Tony will help too I'm sure
09:29:38 it would have to check against the large text file of usernames...
09:29:49 but this is great
09:30:12 louis_to: we don't have a list of usernames, do we?
09:30:32 we'd have to get the latest, either via SQL command or from CN
09:30:39 louis_to: can be done a posteriori, while processing results
09:30:47 lgodard: right
09:31:02 louis_to: then the voting system is quite light
09:31:17 let's use the email addresses; we have them without further need for CN's cooperation
09:31:18 chapeau ;-(
09:31:22 I meant :-)
09:31:31 oikay.
09:32:08 so, I'll send out the advertisement today to the lists--get public--and remind. Election then for Wednesday.
09:32:37 louis_to: ok
09:32:41 okk
09:32:46 We can use this too, if Cusoon is agreeable, for project leads and other things?
09:32:56 i think we should have an idea what the infrastructure looks like first.
09:32:56 thanks, lgodard!
09:33:03 louis_to: yes, once in place, it can run :)
09:33:20 stx12: there is a demo
09:33:24 shall i contact cristian or are we going ahead with cusoon?
09:33:39 lgodard: do you have a link=
09:33:41 lgodard: do you have a link?
09:33:45 http://mooouette.tuxfamily.org/
09:33:50 but the vote is over
09:34:23 i i asked ben to reactivate it
09:35:08 lgodard: good! then let's introduce a simple check for project memebership and we can start.
09:35:50 stx12: add the ooo login name
09:36:05 okay, shall we move on to the next item?
09:36:10 and check if not already
09:36:22 shall i contact cristian or are we going ahead with cusoon?
09:36:33 or store it and discard it when processinf result if not ok
09:36:40 so no need to control
09:36:41 I think cdriga needs to be contacted anyway
09:37:02 ben just re-opened the vote
09:37:21 it is multichoice, but can be single vote
09:37:38 stx12, lgodard can you discuss the details separately?
09:38:19 ok
09:38:38 so, back to "boosting involvement"...
09:38:41 louis_to: sure, so we go ahead with the cusoon solution.
09:38:48 thanks, stx12
09:39:07 one last question; is this lgodard's or my AI?
09:39:59 thinks elections were a good example
09:40:19 both
09:40:55 lgodard did his immediately but needs to follow up; you are to contact cdriga and also evaluate the cusoon arrangement; cddriga may work with you
09:41:01 is that fair?
09:41:34 ok for me, i will see with ben this week end (can't before)
09:41:35 sorry, i'll do what you say; but i'm in favour of 1 responsible owner.
09:41:53 if you want to own it all, fine; it's effectively the case anyway
09:42:06 lgodard has pretty much done his...
09:42:09 no problem for me, i'ml just here to help
09:42:11 thanks
09:42:19 okay, AI: stefan
09:42:34 lgodard: i need ben's email address
09:42:36 stx12: i'll inform you for a demo
09:43:35 lgodard: thx; i have it
09:43:50 some ideas about boosting involvement are to make this CC more public. I think there are some others we can consider:
09:43:56 * advertising what we are doing
09:44:09 (besides nothing0
09:44:15 that was a joke...
09:44:41 suggesting bigger themes that might excite members....
09:45:13 the new mission statement program that Buce D'Arcus mentioned on p_leads is a small example
09:45:20 _Nesshof___ (n=mh@wlan-sun.staroffice.de) has joined the channel
09:45:42 did I miss something ?
09:46:16 _Nesshof_I can email u transcripts now.
09:46:25 or side channel
09:46:28 last thing I got was the big themes issue ?
09:46:32 ->_Nesshof_: ping
09:46:38 what is an example for a good theme ?
09:47:08 hiring developers to fix persistent bugs
09:47:28 which bugs? how to evaluate?
09:47:41 also, hiring them to add features: same problem
09:47:51 the cc can intervene here by suggesting and setting the policy
09:47:57 we did that for hsql ?
09:48:12 lgodard: yes and no
09:48:22 we authorized putting a sign up for money for them
09:48:40 we also authorized sophie to hire or find a developer for the critieria
09:49:10 but we have not addressed direclty the idea of the CC promoting community interest in this fashion
09:49:49 I'm a little bit sceptic wrt hiring developer for fixing bugs or developing features
09:49:51 also, allocating funds for other meritorious things, such as for students : again, this may excite interest b/c it would be materially relevant
09:50:00 the learning curve is pretty high
09:50:17 _Nesshof_: the point is to excite the interest, not necessarily actually fix them :-)
09:50:22 though if that occurs, great
09:50:46 if we want to spend money on developers, instead of hiring, how about some "bounty program" or "GSoC equivalent" to attract talent?
09:50:55 +1, too
09:51:11 mhu: yes +1
09:51:20 +1
09:51:22 and with students direclty; I'll be sending a report on that shortly to pleads, but it's quite promising: to fund schoosl
09:51:25 who builds ?
09:51:26 schools
09:51:29 hiring people on regular basis may also be a problem, a bounty program maybe more feasible
09:51:35 the program ? chooses ?
09:52:11 lgodard: that's exactly the point: to involve the community in the process so that these issues--who chooses, etc.--can be seen as having relevance and material consequences
09:52:49 lgodard: no idea yet, maybe a "subcommittee" of the CC / ESC / ...
09:53:32 or an ad hoc committee: let's see: the community should step up if it is interested; and it should be interested
09:53:50 proposed by people, based on IZ votes ?
09:53:52 and the CC can simply also be the final arbiter, as a check/balance
09:54:01 lgodard; that would have to be worked out
09:54:39 notes: this is brainstorming to find ideas to involve people in the governance of the project
09:54:40 yes
09:56:26 other ideas?
09:56:38 or should we use the list for more....?
09:56:49 but : stx12?, paveljanik?
09:58:18 may be we can have something like launchpad.net to make more proeminent the participation
09:58:41 see https://launchpad.net/~tonio/+participation
09:59:18 Hm. But what is in it for OOo people?
09:59:51 believes that participation depends finally on interest: if the community is interested--stands to gain/lose, they participate. if it is just as spectators: they do not
10:00:07 louis_to: I find the JCA list not reflecting the real contributions, I think we need something that allow contributors to be seen
10:00:11 and if they can affect that gain/loss, they will surely participate
10:00:36 sophi: good point. who wants to take that on?
10:00:58 which leads to the requirement for support in project specific tooling like credit list, "featured participation", ...
10:01:22 stx12: yes
10:02:21 there is already several project on launchpad https://launchpad.net/projects
10:02:25 stx12: I'm not sure I fully aware of what you mean...
10:02:31 but I really don't know the tool
10:03:45 _Nesshof_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:03:52 i have no specific tool in mind; bnut people would be more encouraged if they get credit, are listed prominently, we highlight valuable contributions, ...
10:04:26 yes and not only code one :)
10:04:30 ah. okay, shall we then assign an AI that encompasses this?
10:04:35 ie, who wants to own this?
10:04:39 _Nesshof___?
10:04:46 i though of working on this and support the outcome it with some tooling (which has to be implemented)
10:04:48 or Louis?
10:04:56 stx12?
10:05:18 meanbing we (the CC) represented by louis_to or _Nesshof___ :-)
10:05:42 agreed, plus others who want to join :-)
10:06:03 but I can own this and include _Nesshof___ and whoever else...
10:06:49 it's pretty important. I don't really believe, however, that simply recognition will make the diff but it will help in establishing a community for real contribution and participation
10:06:50 louis_to: ok
10:06:52 thanks
10:07:21 louis_to: maybe future CCR will join this AI
10:07:25 So, in the interest of time... we can continue with other ideas under the banner of increasing involvmement in the governance on list
10:07:28 yes!
10:07:37 hopes lgodard wlll anyway
10:08:52 I'd like to move on to the next item over, skipping team OOo accountability for right now
10:09:47 why skeipping ?
10:09:52 why?
10:10:37 just b/c adding nonvoting members is close to boosting involvement as both relate to CC issues directly
10:10:53 reason of logical continuity
10:11:21 but if you want to stick with the order of items on the wiki, that's fine; I put them there more or less randomly, as I thought of them
10:12:26 so: in order, Team OOo accountability
10:12:35 we're well beyond the hour, shall we discontinue the meeting for today?
10:12:51 mhu: hm.
10:13:22 it would be nice to finish these items if only briefly and discussed on list; we can also meet next week if need be
10:13:37 this has nothing to do with the topic :-) It's only b/c I still have a day job.
10:14:07 I'd like to go until half past the hour; then hard end
10:14:18 louis_to: ok
10:14:30 okay, that's at least a defined end; agreed.
10:14:54 so, sophi, stx12: do you have a report on the issue, eg, a timeline for when some accounting can be represented on the CC page?
10:15:07 the issue is probably better understood as being stx12's.
10:15:35 me no, but if stx12 send me data I will be able to provide something :)
10:15:58 iirc they first AI was to describe what team ooo is in general.
10:16:33 it's a start..
10:16:57 but the larger issue is to understand what the funds are doing and have a sense of quantity.
10:17:01 stx12: it's already somewhere on the site
10:17:14 louis_to: yes
10:17:18 it can be put on the CC homepage
10:17:29 but having a better sense of funds and how they are managed is helpful
10:17:49 as it gives the community an understanding of what is possible to imagine
10:18:42 http://council.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=discuss&msgNo=1131
10:18:56 louis_to: yes, the last news was that Charles has to collect the needs from the projects concerning the amount of money left by last year
10:19:04 i have to repeat that we had a budget of 70,000 EUR for 2007. and the more pressing point still is INO to create the "funding team".
10:19:10 if I remember well
10:19:46 recommends then that we post this to the CC homepage. I can do that.
10:20:14 as to a funding team: who wants to own that?
10:20:22 what is "this"?
10:20:43 budget available for 2007
10:21:01 basically, the contents of the message _Nesshof___ pointed us to
10:21:11 it can go with an explanation of what Team Ooo is
10:21:20 the issue: to make this available on the CC pages
10:21:36 louis_to: Charles was already owning this AI I think along with stx12
10:22:02 better an invitation to join the grants team and proposals for processing of requests, ...
10:22:17 grants team?
10:22:28 yes, i raised this with charles during his visit in hamburg.
10:22:44 it would be nice to see this on the CC lists.
10:22:51 b/c I don't recall reading it
10:23:04 the group working on the priority of requests.
10:23:06 louis_to: it's on a list but I can't remember which
10:23:10 stx12: so you think of a marekting grant team, a porting grant team, ...
10:23:12 ?
10:23:37 _Nesshof___ well, from the action on it it seems that we need to raise visibility
10:24:23 _Nesshof___: this implies that funds are spread to projects; that woul dbe the first decision to be made whether we would like to handle it this way.
10:24:39 louis_to: how, by puttinh it on the CC homepage ?
10:24:59 stx12: agreed
10:25:04 yes, or in council.ooo anyway
10:25:13 who's going to do a proposal ?
10:25:29 more specificity is needed
10:25:35 obviously we were not able to do one in February
10:26:21 ok, I will do one for next meeting in two weeks, but then don't commplain
10:26:30 sophi, stx12: if you could point us to the trace of the conversations on the lists, that'd be very nice
10:26:49 louis_to: I'll contact Charles
10:26:52 we are coming to the end of the meeting, so to resume...
10:26:54 thanks
10:27:24 * AI stx12: to summarize what team Ooo and how it works with OOo
10:27:46 AI : louis_to: to state the budget for 2007
10:28:06 AI: stx: contact charles and get info on the grants program
10:29:12 louis_to: I'm not in favor to write down numbers on homepages
10:29:47 louis_to: i don't think just listing the budget helps us. let's find a way to spend the budget beneficial for the project.
10:29:57 it need not be homepage; it could be, council..../funding/index.html
10:30:02 we need to define produres on how to spend money
10:30:32 stx12: I think people would certainly like to know rough estimates, eg, 50-100K
10:30:39 _Nesshof___: yes
10:30:47 before talking about on how much money to spend
10:31:00 we all have ideas and we can propose them to the CC list. but the grants program also seems to address that
10:31:04 _Nesshof___: why?
10:31:28 see our discussion on February: leads to nothing
10:31:56 _Nesshof___ I'll look it over
10:31:59 Time is up
10:32:47 the only disagreement on AIs related to this was mine, on publicizing the funds avail. I'll hold on that. But Stefan's AI on Team OOo is still there... yes?
10:32:48 just one word the certifications criteria is in progress and discussed on the list and wiki
10:33:23 sophi: thanks. I also have news on this but can relate it to the list
10:33:41 louis_to: ok, thanks
10:33:53 we can continue next meeting, in two weeks, and also on the list. We need to discuss the other points and add more :-)
10:34:07 are all agreed to adjourn the meeting now?
10:34:15 louis_to: ok
10:35:32 if no one objects, meeting is adjourned...