Application Rebranding - Project Home Page/20100505

(14:27:24) sophi [~sophi@109.129.154.26] entered the room.
(14:28:42) rosanaardila [~ra231492@nat/sun/x-swpwkkamjthshean] entered the room.
(14:52:29) eric_QA [~es93802@nat/sun/x-urjmogurjtnsehkd] entered the room.
(14:52:43) eric_QA: Hi *!
(14:54:23) frankl [~frankl@nat/sun/x-rnffnbdnaiktfame] entered the room.
(14:59:10) JensGH [~JensGH@dslb-088-076-065-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] entered the room.
(14:59:24) JensGH: hi
(15:00:08) #ooobranding: mode (+o _Nesshof_) by stx12
(15:01:19) _Nesshof_: hi, still waiting for khirano
(15:01:30) rosanaardila: Hi
(15:01:35) frankl: Hi
(15:02:17) _Nesshof_: and berhard, iirc
(15:02:56) _Nesshof_: so for those how don't know who Nesshof is: 
(15:02:57) bedipp [~chatzilla@80-121-89-39.adsl.highway.telekom.at] entered the room.
(15:03:01) _Nesshof_: Martin Hollmichel
(15:03:08) _Nesshof_: hi bernhard
(15:03:14) bedipp: Hi all
(15:03:42) _Nesshof_: > so I want to pick up Sophies suggestion to create an I-Team to discuss  the items listed for Application Branding on  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas#OpenOffice.org_Application  and create the required spec and work as we do for other new features as  usual. 
(15:04:13) _Nesshof_: I suggest that we go through the list: 
(15:04:22) _Nesshof_:  Startcenter  Usability aspects  lack of color  design language   splashscreen  Icon Themes  Other UI Graphics  Default Styles  Help Graphics  About Box    
(15:04:42) _Nesshof_: and look if there are issue left we need to resolve
(15:05:03) _Nesshof_: I suggest to start with the easy ones first to get most of the agenda covered today
(15:05:21) _Nesshof_: so I start from the rear: About Box
(15:05:36) _Nesshof_: why is it on the list, which open items do we have ?
(15:06:28) JensGH: personally i don´t think there is a problem with the about box...
(15:07:22) _Nesshof_: I only remember a comment regarding flickering of the contributors list, we should simply file an issue for it, IHMO
(15:07:40) bedipp: there should be an issue
(15:07:48) _Nesshof_: so any objection to remove this item from the agenda ?
(15:07:51) _Nesshof_: oops
(15:08:13) _Nesshof_: yes, I take the action item to look for the issue or write one
(15:08:37) _Nesshof_: btw. we will use http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Application_Rebranding_-_Project_Home_Page to track our progress
(15:08:39) bedipp: i111140
(15:08:53) _Nesshof_: where's izbot ?
(15:09:17) frankl: in our UX room ;-)
(15:09:38) _Nesshof_: ok, next one on the list: Help graphics ? any comment on that one ?
(15:11:01) JensGH: maybe this is something to work with the doc team?
(15:11:16) bedipp: _Nesshof_: sorry for being so late, but we should keep in mind that the AboutBox and every other graphics should follow the general design language
(15:11:29) bedipp: once we work on it
(15:12:03) bedipp: Therefore removing it from today's agenda is ok - but not as general topic
(15:12:22) ***_Nesshof_ have almost no idea what is meant by design language
(15:13:31) bedipp: I think there will be some work on graphical areas like start center, splash, web interface ...
(15:14:08) bedipp: If we introduce other elements or new designs, the general graphical impression could change
(15:14:17) JensGH: maybe we can solve this by using the splash and add a text field, like in adobe products.. so it will fit perfectly
(15:15:32) _Nesshof_: ok
(15:15:37) bedipp: don't get me wrong: We don't need to work on the AboutBox right now - but we'll have to keep in in mind for any change in design in other areas
(15:16:15) bedipp: therefore the BrandingAreas page will need to be reviewed every now and then
(15:16:25) _Nesshof_: so we remove Help graphic also from the list, knowing that Uwe from the doc teams will read about our proceeding
(15:16:26) rosanaardila: I agree with Bernhard
(15:16:42) stx12: yes, a change may result from an update of the splash screen; but that's not a specific problem to be worked on.
(15:17:01) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is about "Default Styles"
(15:18:06) _Nesshof_: any idea about that one ? rosanaardila, you put on the page ?!
(15:18:45) rosanaardila: no, it wasn't me
(15:19:15) bedipp: who did it?
(15:19:42) bedipp: For me it is similar to the general look and feel or design language
(15:19:42) rosanaardila: I think it was Ivan
(15:19:50) rosanaardila: Default Styles (Templates, Fonts, etc) 
(15:19:55) _Nesshof_: ok, then we put this on hold as well, unless Ican comment this
(15:20:02) rosanaardila: I think that's about content
(15:20:08) rosanaardila: that can be changed easily
(15:20:15) rosanaardila: I don't think it should be in scope now
(15:20:49) rosanaardila: that is more for the branding initiative in general
(15:21:06) frankl:  Agree. We are working on 'Better Defaults' within the Renaissance Project. Should fit perfectly.   
(15:21:21) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is other UI graphics
(15:21:42) bedipp: I'm late again -
(15:22:04) frankl: FYI: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Improving_OOo_Default_Settings
(15:22:04) bedipp: general definition of fonts for branding has been asked for some moths ago
(15:22:26) bedipp: should this not be an item for this ITeam?
(15:22:29) rosanaardila: Bernhard, I think that's up to the branding initiative to decide
(15:22:48) rosanaardila: if we are doing everything in this iteam then it should be here
(15:23:01) rosanaardila: I thought it was more about the start center
(15:23:06) rosanaardila: but maybe I missunderstood it
(15:23:51) bedipp: Looking at the agenda, we're discussing much more than the StartCenter
(15:24:05) bedipp: And I think it's reasonable
(15:24:36) bedipp: to have this iTeam meetings to discuss all the Branding Initiative actvities.
(15:24:54) _Nesshof_: bedipp: my understanding is that default styles is about document contents ?
(15:24:57) bedipp: Perhaps it will be better to have dedicated iTeams on seeral subtopics
(15:25:07) rosanaardila: ok, but then I think that it shoulbe be discussed as part of the branding guidelines
(15:25:43) bedipp: rosanaardila: ok - this should be on the agenda for one of the next meetings
(15:25:57) rosanaardila: I think "official" fonts ar emore part of the guidelines than of the templates 
(15:26:44) bedipp: _Nesshof_: probably - and for marketing material etc
(15:26:49) rosanaardila: bernard do you agree on having fonts in our guidelines rather than with templates?
(15:27:25) bedipp: offficial templates should base on the guidelines
(15:27:43) bedipp: so the guidelines should be the first step
(15:27:53) rosanaardila: ok, so would it be a good idea to set an iteam for the guidelines first?
(15:28:16) bedipp: (or templates should be used as examples to create the guidelines)
(15:28:42) eric_QA: _Nesshof_: I had understood our Agenda as "Start Center" centris as first step of the big picture "Re-branding"... isn't it?
(15:28:59) eric_QA: "centric"
(15:29:29) bedipp: rosanaardila: of course - I think we could skip all point based on the guidelines for this meeting.
(15:29:53) _Nesshof_: eric_QA: I'm quite confident that this item will left over as our main effort here, but we will see
(15:30:44) _Nesshof_: ok, other UI Graphics to be removed ?
(15:31:31) JensGH: this is something for UX team, too
(15:32:07) JensGH: if there are new gfx needed they should make list for missing gfx
(15:32:31) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is Icon Themes (Indutrial, etc.)
(15:33:05) frankl:  Do we talk about bitmaps in Impress Wizards for instance? 
(15:33:06) JensGH: which icons we talk about? desktop or inside OOo?
(15:34:23) _Nesshof_: iirc, there some coordination with art teams of kde and gnome is desired for some of the document icons with the icon themes ?!
(15:35:59) JensGH: hm.. is it about same icons on every linux distribution?
(15:36:12) _Nesshof_: would be nice to have somebody responsible for the coordination
(15:36:19) rosanaardila: I think icon themes is a very complex matter
(15:36:29) _Nesshof_: JensGH: I'm not sure if every Linux distro use the same icons
(15:36:37) rosanaardila: without the people that actually do the bitmaps we can't decide anything
(15:37:04) JensGH: we must add some info next time on the wiki for details :-)
(15:37:04) _Nesshof_: rosanaardila: yes, and we just should coordinates these effort and ask the experts of these themes to take over
(15:37:24) rosanaardila: ok
(15:37:25) _Nesshof_: JensGH: I'm adding the infos continously
(15:37:45) bedipp: But keep in mind that they are part of the general branding, so close interaction is necessary
(15:37:46) rosanaardila: I personally son't see yet the need for a change in the icon themes
(15:38:00) rosanaardila: I think it's a big project that can wait
(15:38:14) bedipp: +1
(15:38:42) eric_QA: I don't see it which way themes are part of re-branding... don't want to play troll, just asking :) 
(15:39:03) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is splashscreen
(15:39:47) _Nesshof_: eric_QA: it's more about adopted ODF Icons for the distros, can wait as rosana stated
(15:40:20) eric_QA: Now  I get it! ok.
(15:40:54) JensGH: one idea during marketing conf call was the idea fading from Splash into Startcenter...
(15:41:17) _Nesshof_: JensGH: interesting idea
(15:42:12) _Nesshof_: but I assume the splash screen also is closly related to design language
(15:42:26) frankl: What's about a start center that is present in 2 seconds?
(15:42:32) bedipp: Splash and StartCenter should have the same design at least - therefore they could be discussed together 
(15:42:53) JensGH: i did some ground work on my wiki page http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:JensGH  there are rough ideas, but you can see startcenter and splash are the same size so they can fade...
(15:43:05) _Nesshof_: bedipp: I'm fine with that, so lets open this topic as well
(15:43:58) _Nesshof_: the open points about the start center are ?
(15:43:59) bedipp: frankl: same design would be even more necessary
(15:45:17) bedipp: usability / colors
(15:45:23) frankl: I think we should have a look on the complete start up of OOo not just changing elements we are currently used to see on start up.
(15:45:39) frankl: today.
(15:45:56) bedipp: frankl: +1 
(15:46:23) bedipp: But we don't have any other words for possible startup graphics, so I'd lkie to stay with StartCenter
(15:46:38) bedipp: lkie -> like
(15:46:41) frankl: OK
(15:46:51) _Nesshof_: so what are the current issues with usability ?
(15:47:37) bedipp: people are used to different colors for different sub-applications / document types
(15:48:13) bedipp: it's easier to follow color than specific design elements or text
(15:48:43) eric_QA: bedippp: you are right but your design shows no specific color and is very usable http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:Start-black.png
(15:48:43) JensGH: I am missing visible buttons... last time a new user asked why only one button is active... this is the focus on mac...
(15:49:14) eric_QA: Sorry! not bedipp! JensGH
(15:49:41) JensGH: yes i did it in a very open style...
(15:50:30) frankl: Erverybody claims that this or that design is 'very usable'. Did anyone made a test?
(15:51:03) eric_QA: For me it is the best example one *can* forget about colors BUT be clear and "sexy" (my taste!)
(15:52:19) bedipp: I agree that color is not the basic of usable elements, but an easy one - good design can provide other means to reach the same goal.
(15:52:23) JensGH: one important thing is no unnecessary eye candy
(15:52:31) _Nesshof_: frankl: which use cases we are talking about when talking about the startcenter ?
(15:53:20) frankl: I think we should think about the requirements first. What problem is solved by the Start Center. Why has it been introduced? Are there any new requirements today?
(15:53:34) JensGH: i remember the old menu selection 2.0
(15:53:37) JensGH: this was bad
(15:53:47) frankl: ?
(15:54:18) JensGH: in OOo 2.0 you started and ended with a menu for selection ( writer, calc.. )
(15:54:45) frankl: The backing window?
(15:55:22) JensGH: yes there was no startmenu, just a normal window menu
(15:56:14) frankl: I remember. I think that was done just to keep the DLLs in memory. Technical trick with bad UI implementation.
(15:56:41) sts_ [~irchon@wlan-sun.staroffice.de] entered the room.
(15:56:48) JensGH: i think the startcenter is a very important part in 3.0 for better novice user experience... 
(15:56:49) _Nesshof_: so one requirement seems to be: quickly start the right thing (application) to get my problem solved, e.g. start Calc
(15:57:03) JensGH: +1
(15:57:04) _Nesshof_: JensGH: ack
(15:57:48) _Nesshof_: or open a file or template
(15:57:54) eric_QA: I just had a call with the dev who implemented the SC: "some people found the gray area ugly"... now it seems that some other people want it back if they want: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=90815
(15:58:05) frankl:  But what is with templates? Starting on plain ground looks not so impressive nowadays. 
(15:58:05) bedipp: second: use this element to support our branding / visual impression
(15:59:19) frankl: That is the point. You will always find someone telling you that you are wrong. So let us collect requirements and then come up with a proposal.
(15:59:27) bedipp: frankl: template selection should be more informative than nowadays - and based on the same graphical elements
(16:00:18) JensGH: i remember people asking me what to do after they start OOo.. they never used anything than wordpad... so i must guide them to the menu... know they see what is possible... i think it is a bad idea removing it
(16:01:25) JensGH: now ^^  - ups
(16:01:57) bedipp: So the StartCenter should give a hand to novices as well as provide a direct access to every area
(16:03:45) frankl: OK.
(16:03:48) frankl:  If you start a single application (i.e. Writer) what should happen?  Today Writer shows up with an empty document. Why?
(16:04:29) JensGH: it is a shortcut
(16:04:39) bedipp: Just because the author doesn't select a different template.
(16:04:50) frankl: If we could integrate the template chooser in SC, we could show the template part when you start a single application.
(16:04:51) bedipp: In Impress it's different
(16:05:10) frankl: Impress comes up with an wizard.
(16:05:20) bedipp: But I'm annoyed of going through the wizard every time...
(16:05:54) frankl: Within Renaissance we had the question - who whats that wizard to come up each time?
(16:06:11) eric_QA: frankl: not sure Wizards and template lists take the novice user by the hand....
(16:06:29) bedipp: The StartCenter could provide direct access to a few most important templates (modifyable of course)
(16:06:33) JensGH: maybe we could add a template icon behind every button so the single app comes up with a template wizard...
(16:06:49) frankl: So we have used the data we get thru usage tracking and could see that many people do use it. Most time they hit OK on page 3.
(16:06:55) bedipp: behind -> besides =
(16:07:08) JensGH: yes
(16:07:35) sophi: frankl: in most companies I have migrated, the wizard was disable
(16:07:49) ***_Nesshof_ don't want to make first meeting to long, we should reduce our efforts to list the open points we want to work on and not yet work on details today
(16:07:55) frankl: Why?
(16:08:14) eric_QA: _Nesshof_ +1!
(16:08:51) bedipp: I did a mockup that presents the template access more prominently (could show it after the official meeting)
(16:08:55) sophi: frankl: because they used the template provided by the company or a previous presentation
(16:09:10) frankl:  bedipp: OK
(16:10:34) frankl: sophi: So our template chooser, showing the company CIed presentations, would be a good idea.
(16:10:42) frankl: then.
(16:11:29) sts_ left the room (quit: Read error: No route to host).
(16:11:41) sts_ [~irchon@wlan-sun.staroffice.de] entered the room.
(16:11:56) sophi: frankl: yes, most of the time we add a menu entry in the File menu to provide a direct access to the templates, so it would be a very good idea to have a this chooser
(16:12:36) eric_QA: _Nesshof_: can you please sum up the remaining points + new points?
(16:12:36) _Nesshof_: ok, do we have more open points we need to talk about ?
(16:12:36) bedipp: I don't know how to proceed with the startcenter right now - it's mostly part of our general branding that hasn't been defined by now.
(16:13:15) _Nesshof_: bedipp: that's about the design language ?
(16:13:43) bedipp: yes - general OOo design - our goals etc
(16:14:29) _Nesshof_: rosanaardila: is this in your scope as well ? do we have the right people on board ?
(16:15:06) rosanaardila: I also think that the design language should be discussed
(16:15:14) _Nesshof_: ok
(16:15:24) rosanaardila: for me it's crucial to finish at least the logo usage guidelines
(16:15:52) _Nesshof_: my plan is to have this meeting now on weekly basis, to publish the full log and to keep the wiki updated
(16:15:52) bedipp: What do we want to reach with out branding / design?
(16:16:35) rosanaardila: Bernhard, I think that's partly a marketing question
(16:16:36) bedipp: And we can use additional lots to discuss topics here in the IRC
(16:16:41) _Nesshof_: and I will try to be here on this channel on 8pm to collect additional feedback regading our progress
(16:16:46) _Nesshof_: bedipp: yes
(16:17:07) _Nesshof_: at the moment we have no developer on board yet
(16:17:12) bedipp: rosanaardila: of course - marketing and branding are very close in scope
(16:17:54) sts_ left the room (quit: Quit: sts_).
(16:17:55) bedipp: _Nesshof_: what should a dev work on at this point of our work?
(16:18:12) _Nesshof_: so who is interested in contributing to this team, please add your name and comments on http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Application_Rebranding_-_Project_Home_Page
(16:18:33) _Nesshof_: bedipp: no idea, so I also don't consider this as problem at this stage
(16:18:43) _Nesshof_: same applies for documentation
(16:18:48) bedipp: Implementing graphical elements will have to be done later...
(16:18:53) sts_ [~irchon@wlan-sun.staroffice.de] entered the room.
(16:19:00) _Nesshof_: of course they are welcome to contribute to this discussion
(16:19:40) _Nesshof_: did I miss something urgent for today ?
(16:19:44) bedipp: Documentation is more important, because there might be preconditions for our official documents they want to be implemented
(16:20:16) _Nesshof_: bedipp: we keep Uwe and Frank in the loop
(16:20:19) eric_QA: _Nesshof_: we should think about "inviting" a DEV anyway which will be able to judge about feasability of our proposals...
(16:20:29) eric_QA: Effort... Risk...
(16:21:51) _Nesshof_: ok, so everybody is fine to close for today ?
(16:22:00) rosanaardila: I'm fine