Community Council Minutes 20080131

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IRC log of Community Council meeting 2008-01-31

Attendees

• Sophie Gautier (sophi)
• Martin Hollmichel (_Nesshof__)
• André Schnabel (Thalion72)
• Louis Suarez-Potts (louis_to)
• Matthias Huetsch (mhu)
• Pavel Janík (paveljanik)
• John McCreesh (jpmcc)
• Stefan Taxhet (stx12)

Cor Nouws was unable to attend

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IRC meeting commences 18:45 UTC (more or less)

13:49:51 louis_to Let's start, then. 

13:50:08 louis_to I take it everyone has read John's proposal and the email correspondence? 

13:50:26 louis_to also, john, do you want to mainly lead this meeting? 

13:51:12 jpmcc Happy to let you lead the discussion 

13:51:25 louis_to okay 

13:52:12 louis_to I'll assume we are familiar with the proposal.... 

13:52:18 louis_to the key starting point: 

13:52:48 louis_to Aproving a request.... 

13:52:57 louis_to but how is a request even made? 

13:53:05 louis_to John? 

13:53:24 louis_to that is, how does the community submit a request to the CC or whomever? 

13:53:43 louis_to you have, 

13:53:49 Thalion72 not to the cc - to the budget owner, please 

13:53:58 louis_to correct 

13:54:19 louis_to the budget holder (BH) may request an email quotation from teh supplier... 

13:54:44 louis_to so I would suggest, as a preface to that, that community members communicate with a project lead? 

13:54:56 jpmcc Let's take e.g. the Marketing Project. I would expect requests for funding e.g. for leaflets for an exhibition... 

13:55:19 louis_to from project members of Marketing, yes? 

13:55:27 louis_to or from any project? 

13:55:42 jpmcc ...to be discussed on the MP mailing lists (probably from a MarCon)... 

13:55:44 Thalion72 native-lang projects may request that as well 

13:56:13 louis_to okay, so we have sub-budget owners per, say, sector: marketing would be one, say 

13:56:31 louis_to you see the logistical issue I am raising? 

13:56:50 Thalion72 yes - and markeding is easy to handle 

13:57:10 Thalion72 I'd suggest a dedicated list for requests and funding discussions 

13:57:38 louis_to others? 

13:57:56 jpmcc Thallion72: <chant> no more lists, no more lists... </chant> 

13:58:04 louis_to wiki? 

13:58:07 Thalion72 I know :( 

13:58:32 louis_to I was thinking that a project member must contact his project lead 

13:58:52 louis_to and the lead then places it on a wiki, but that seems to be silly bureucracy 

13:59:01 Thalion72 hmm .. wiki might work -but the BH need to check, what is written on the wiki. With a mailing list they will be triggered 

13:59:18 louis_to can rss work with wiki/ 

13:59:19 louis_to ? 

13:59:45 stx12 louis_to: you can't easily follow specific pages 

13:59:48 Thalion72 afaik not at the moment 

13:59:52 jpmcc If there is to be discussion in a project, then a project mailing list is where it should go. 

14:00:42 louis_to okay, would you agree to the idea of the project lead? 

14:00:52 Thalion72 jpmcc: yes - discussion should be on project lists ... only the formal process should be on a dedicated list 

14:01:02 stx12 given our email exchange the final request should go to a list the treasurer can follow 

14:01:05 Thalion72 project lead: -1 

14:01:54 jpmcc Can I step through this for an MP example (bear with me) 

14:02:06 Thalion72 jpmcc: please 

14:02:10 louis_to stx12: final request would have to go to a specific request 

14:02:17 jpmcc (1) Someone - e.g. a MarCon - wants some MP funding 

14:02:42 jpmcc (2) They circulate the idea in principle on a dev@ list - hoow much, what for 

14:03:17 jpmcc (3) Unless there is huge opposition, the MP lead would agree and ask for full details 

14:03:42 jpmcc (4) The MP lead (Budget Holder) then raises the Request to Purchase per the process 

14:04:02 jpmcc (5) Request to Purchase is emailed to Authoriser 

14:04:20 jpmcc (6) Authoriser emails to Treasuer ... etc as per the proposal 

14:04:25 jpmcc Would that work? 

14:04:30 louis_to I see no problems 

14:04:36 louis_to one can then frame it this way: 

14:04:37 Thalion72 for marketing - yes 

14:04:51 louis_to money is for specific things, as MHo suggested 

14:04:52 Thalion72 but we have not "development lead" 

14:04:55 mhu how for the other budget categories? 

14:04:57 louis_to marketing, code, 

14:04:58 louis_to right 

14:05:52 jpmcc I haven't got the list of budget headings in front of me. Are there any that do not have an obvious dev@ type of list? 

14:06:01 louis_to I would nominate someone(s) then who could handle the code budget--and also seek to understand what we have that for 

14:06:38 jpmcc louis_to: someone appointed by the ESC as Budget Holder? 

14:06:50 louis_to that was what I was thinking 

14:07:11 louis_to the logical person might be the treas. MHU or Nesshof :-) 

14:07:24 mhu hmm, yes that might indeed work 

14:07:24 louis_to but they are already involved, no? 

14:07:56 jpmcc It couldn't be the Treasurer, as they will be too busy... 

14:08:03 louis_to Stefan? 

14:08:08 Thalion72 pavel? 

14:08:08 mhu ...meaning the ESC miight be the right address 

14:08:30 Thalion72 agreed (ESC) 

14:08:50 jpmcc Could we just ask the ESC to nominate someone and park it for now? 

14:08:59 louis_to that's fine with me... 

14:08:59 mhu yes 

14:09:06 Thalion72 yes 

14:09:13 _Nesshof_ ESC or someone from code project leeads ? 

14:09:26 louis_to yes. 

14:09:27 _Nesshof_ or from both groups ? 

14:09:35 Thalion72 ESC is BH, project leads is approver 

14:09:42 mhu the ESC could nominate a code project lead... 

14:09:48 louis_to I think having more than one person is desirable, of course; 

14:09:49 stx12 Thalion72: or the other way around :-) 

14:10:02 Thalion72 yes :) 

14:11:12 Thalion72 what about infrastructure ? Also for ESC? 

14:11:15 _Nesshof_ this would apply to Developer - contest/awards/contracted work ?! 

14:11:25 louis_to _Nesshof_: I think so 

14:11:25 _Nesshof_ Thalion72: yes 

14:11:42 Thalion72 hmm .. contest might be shared with marketing 

14:11:49 stx12 hm, how would website be involved? 

14:12:07 _Nesshof_ Thalion72: or moved to marketing ? 

14:12:09 louis_to or, for that matter, extensions? or Documenation? 

14:12:21 louis_to code/noncode/marketing 

14:12:51 Thalion72 louis_to: : that's why I'd like to see a dedicated list where als BH's are subscribed 

14:13:17 _Nesshof_ but we can extend the single budget item independent from the current discussion 

14:13:17 *** sophi (n=sophie@m168.net81-64-15.noos.fr) has joined the channel 

14:13:23 louis_to Thalion72: I agree, too, tho lilke all would rather not have another list 

14:13:29 Thalion72 I don't think, all requests will fit to exactly one sub budget 

14:13:30 sophi Hi, sorry to be so late 

14:13:34 louis_to hi sophie 

14:13:44 Thalion72 hi sophie 

14:13:49 louis_to we are discussing the logistics of submitting budget requests 

14:13:59 jpmcc Thallion72: someone has to agree to pay for each request - so it has to go to aa BH :-) 

14:14:00 sophi louis_to: ok, thanks 

14:14:00 louis_to ->sophi: hi 

14:14:41 Thalion72 jpmcc: if BH's do not knowwhat each other is doing, the request could be submitted twice 

14:15:16 jpmcc Thalion72: that's why the Treasurer has to see everything 

14:16:10 louis_to I think that duplication will not be too much of a problem, btw, as people willl ideally discuss this on project leads 

14:16:30 Thalion72 hmm - ok, so that would mean a BH can be contacted direkly (after discussion in the relevant project) 

14:16:32 louis_to and it could be the responsibility of the BH to inform the project_leads list of anticipated budget and events/costs 

14:16:42 louis_to Thalion72: sure, why not? 

14:17:47 jpmcc Thallion72: yes, they are responsible for that budget and for taking the request through the process 

14:18:00 louis_to so, as I understand it,so far: 

14:18:12 louis_to project member in coding wants money and discusses this on the list 

14:18:12 Thalion72 ok, but at least I'd like to see a list of what has been approved (could go to the wiki) 

14:18:28 louis_to Thalion72: yes: and also to pleads 

14:18:52 louis_to project laad or member then contacts the relevant BH 

14:18:58 Thalion72 louis_to: project leads can read the wiki - community members cannot read the projectleads list ;) 

14:19:20 louis_to I know--but it is the responsibility of the project lead to inform his or her community, noi? 

14:19:28 _Nesshof_ so we need in any case a list to track all approvals so that every BH is aware of every move in overall budget 

14:20:03 jpmcc _Nesshof_ each BH is only responsiblle for their own budgets 

14:20:10 Thalion72 louis_to: transparency is not only to inform about "my project" but to give other people the chance to see, what I am doing 

14:20:19 louis_to Thalion72: I agree. 

14:20:35 louis_to just thinking of ways to contact most people. If wiki works, I'd rather use that or a new list 

14:20:38 louis_to than a closed list 

14:21:15 Thalion72 so I'd prefere wiki 

14:21:19 sophi louis_to: I think wiki is ok 

14:21:19 louis_to me too 

14:21:40 stx12 didn't we agree that one can't follow a wiki's changes? 

14:21:48 stx12 what's the problem with a list? 

14:22:09 jpmcc stx12: agreed. The treasurer could export the purchasing log to the wiki if transparency is required 

14:23:03 louis_to okay, reality check: what is this proposed list and or wiki to be used for and who will be using it? 

14:24:15 Thalion72 my idea for the list was that requests should be sent there, what would mean transparency at an early stage 

14:24:16 jpmcc louis_to: good call. No idea. 

14:24:23 stx12 approved requests are sent to the list by all BHs; the treasurer is urged to follow the list; other BHs are welcome. 

14:24:34 Thalion72 the wiki is for transparency as well - in a later stage 

14:25:08 jpmcc Let's not forget what MH was trying to achieve: "There should be one or three owners for the sub-budget which are able to do quick decisions about spending money for concrete tasks." 

14:25:28 louis_to are we in agreement of the structure stx12/ Thalion72 suggest? 

14:26:13 jpmcc I think we have a piece of work to do off-line to agree the right owner for each budget category. 

14:26:18 louis_to jpmcc: I don't think having structure that enforces transparency will critically hobble decisoin making 

14:26:34 louis_to jpmcc: agreed 

14:27:35 jpmcc I'm fairly comfortable that if we get the right person s a BH, they will work out the right way to discuss with their constituency 

14:28:13 Thalion72 yes :) 

14:28:27 louis_to so far, requests have come for conferences, reimbursement for travel, collateral, but will surely include other things. 

14:28:45 jpmcc louis_to: in the remining 15 mins, could we discuss the role of the Authoriser? 

14:28:48 louis_to for most things, decisions will be easy; a few will require consultation. 

14:29:01 *** mhu_ (n=matthias@nat/sun/x-e03b2cacac0ca450) has joined the channel 

14:29:02 louis_to yes. but are we agreed with the proposal by stx12, Thalion72? 

14:29:09 louis_to list plus wiki 

14:29:22 louis_to and choosing the right persons for code (ESC) 

14:29:36 Thalion72 I'm fine with wiki allone 

14:29:36 louis_to if no, say so; otherwise, I will assume we are in agreement? 

14:30:08 louis_to Thalion72: do you have a strong reason not to like the list? 

14:30:09 jpmcc I'm sorry, still confused. Is this for discussion withi the project before a request is raised? 

14:30:24 louis_to no, as I understand it, it is for approved requests 

14:30:43 louis_to this list is for BHs to use to keep them on one page 

14:30:50 Thalion72 louis_to: no - I just think, it is noc necessary 

14:31:08 louis_to Thalion72: it may not be, but it has some advantages over a wiki 

14:31:21 stx12 wishes thalion fun with reviewing all requests 

14:31:39 louis_to let's move on to authorisers..... 

14:31:49 sophi so let's try the list and the wiki and eliminate the list if it's not used 

14:32:03 louis_to sophi: agreed 

14:32:17 Thalion72 stx12: I'm just speaking for myself - and not for those who do the review 

14:32:30 louis_to Who is the Authoriser? 

14:33:05 louis_to the CC appoints him or her.... 

14:33:14 louis_to but it seems as same problem as BH. 

14:33:36 stx12 which problem? 

14:33:56 louis_to categories of budget expenditure.... 

14:34:09 louis_to not a serious problem. 

14:34:09 jpmcc Martin's proposal was that each budget would have two or three people able to make spending decisions 

14:34:21 louis_to right, and one would be the authoriser 

14:34:31 jpmcc louis_to: correct 

14:34:39 louis_to do we want them all from the same area? 

14:34:58 louis_to in MPs' case, I suggested that the authoriser or bh should come from NLC 

14:35:27 *** mhu has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 

14:35:39 Thalion72 that's easy - Marketing Lead + CoLead would work ;) 

14:36:04 jpmcc I would feel happier with an Authoriser outwith the BH's area, but it's less efficient than Martin's proposal 

14:36:06 stx12 so, the CC approves community members out of project (co-) leads, committee members proposed by the BH 

14:36:08 sophi Thalion72: I agree :) 

14:36:49 jpmcc stx12: "community members"? 

14:37:23 stx12 you are right, that's redundant 

14:37:43 louis_to do we agree to trust the BH? I see no problem here, unless the BH is seriously biased and obviously so 

14:38:11 Thalion72 is see no problem with this - an remember, we have quarterly reviews 

14:38:17 louis_to yes. 

14:38:32 jpmcc stx12: Are you saying CC approves BHs from PLs; BHs choose their own Authorisers? 

14:38:47 mhu_ I think if we don't trust the BH, we should not have appointed her in the first place :-) 

14:39:34 louis_to do we all agree with the proposal by stx12? 

14:39:41 stx12 no, i thought that authorizers are chosen by BHs fron (co-)leads or committee members, then proposed to the CC and approved by the CC 

14:40:01 jpmcc stx12: +1 

14:40:14 Thalion72 +1 

14:40:15 louis_to +1 

14:40:27 _Nesshof_ +1 

14:40:28 stx12 committees = ESC, release, conference, ... 

14:40:44 sophi +1 

14:40:44 jpmcc stx12: MarCons for MP 

14:40:49 louis_to (wonders if we have a list of all committees, and if not, that we need one) 

14:41:16 mhu_ stx12: +1 

14:41:20 jpmcc louis_to: let's set up a committee to find out :) 

14:41:26 louis_to okay, the other points are logistical .... 

14:41:27 louis_to :-) 

14:41:29 _Nesshof_ lol 

14:41:51 louis_to I'm inrtrigued by the idea of a purchase order number... 

14:42:06 louis_to but do others have points they choose to raise here? 

14:42:41 louis_to john, any final points? 

14:43:01 jpmcc I'll revise the document and also try and cover the way we can handle expense claims 

14:43:17 louis_to thanks. 

14:43:27 louis_to thanks also to you and MH for doing this! 

14:43:57 jpmcc I'll add in a llist od budget headings and we can fight over who has the honoour of owning the budgets 

14:44:16 Thalion72 good wording :) 

14:44:17 louis_to so, let's set a deadline again: one week from now for a final draft of the document, with discussion to be conducted on list this week. 

14:44:17 _Nesshof_ :-) 

14:44:30 jpmcc +1 

14:44:32 Thalion72 ok 

14:44:36 sophi +1 

14:44:42 _Nesshof_ +1 

14:44:46 stx12 can we come together againnext week; same day, same time? 

14:44:50 louis_to next meeting then is either next Wed. or Thurs. 

14:44:52 stx12 same channel? 

14:44:55 louis_to yes, I hope so :-) 

14:45:09 sophi stx12: need to check, 2 mn please 

14:45:30 louis_to okay... we can discuss it further on list... 

14:45:41 louis_to if no one disagrees, meeting adjourned, and until next week.