Apache OpenOffice Wiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Ivanm

2010-11-01T00:41:46Z

Ivanm:

'''Question to Ivanm 31Oct10:'''

Please redirect me to a better person if needed, but I'm involved with the [http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Audacity_Wiki_Home_Page Audacity Wiki] (free open source) and the inbuilt search and even Search extensions don't work well. But your search works very well here (e.g. if you quote a phrase you only get that phrase). Does anyone know here if the search here is the inbuilt MediaWiki search and has it been tweaked to work as it does?

Thanks,

[[User:Gaudacity|Gaudacity]] 22:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

'''Response:'''

Please direct your question to [[User:Ccornell|Clayton Cornell]] who administers the wiki.
<hr />

Hi,

I see you wrote about use transparent splashscreen (e.g. png).

FYI, this is a feature I implemented in OOo4Kids, and who could be easely ported to OpenOffice.org. The code is under LGPL V3 License, fully compatible with OOo. The only ned is a public request.

[[User:Ericb|Ericb]] 15:49, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Website/2010 Redesign/Ideas

2010-07-12T00:30:22Z

Ivanm: /* Homepage Layout */

== CSS ==

* We should endeavour to use a common CSS framework across all sites (which also implies a common HTML framework - in terms of layout). Right now, each site uses its own CSS adapted from the main website with different classes, etc. Creating a robust and reusable CSS framework would be one of the top priorities; it would serve as the base, and other websites could then build on it.

== Header ==

=== Two-tier Navigation Proposal ===

We could have a two-level menu (CSS-only): the top level, consisting of main items, and a sub-menu for some of the items (triggered by rollover). The top level menu links would be clickable (therefore it would remain accessible) but the submenu could provide one-click access to specific areas of the website (e.g., 1 click access to the issue tracker from the developer menu item). The most commonly accessed sub-link would be directly under its parent link.

Alternatively we can avoid using popup menus as they can be hard to navigate and use two horizontal bars for the navigation with second bar display on click. This can allow us to have consistent navigation as sub menu pages can always display second bar by default. UX project should have a strong say in, we should consider all the possible options with regard to navigation.

# Home (Do we need it? Could the logo serve this purpose like on [http://www.mozilla.org mozilla.org]?)
# News
## Press Releases
## Planet
# Download(s)
## Latest Version
## Extensions
## Templates
## Clipart
## Developer Previews
# Projects (or Community)
## How to Join (or Join Us)
## A few links to major projects
## More projects >>
# Support
## Forums
## Tutorials
## Books
## Commercial Support
# Wiki
# Development
## Getting Started
## Source Code
## Issue Tracker
# About

In a discussion on the mailing list, [http://website.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=11421 Goran suggested another] site navigation structure that is trying to better reflect "OpenOffice.org is both a product and an open source project (community)". It does not require any new content to be written.

#News
## Press releases
## Blog planets
## Newsletter
# Office suite
## Download!
## Awards and reviews
## Extensions
## Templates
## Clipart
## Projects
# Contribute
## Ideas how to help
## Issue tracker
## Development
# Support
# Wiki
# About community
## Open source
## Community vision
## Organization and governance
## Project leads
## Language communities

Results of previous effort to structure OpenOffice.org site content can be found in [[Information_Sharing]] wiki page.

[[File:Ooo_ia_murb_2007.png]]

OpenOffice.org website information architecture proposal from [http://ux.openoffice.org/reports/2007/website/sitestructure.odp OOo Website Structure] presentation.

Persona profiles are available in [http://ux.openoffice.org/reports/2007/website/usergroups.odp OOo Website User Groups] presentation. [[User_Pages_Requirements]] page has some additional use cases specified.

== Footer ==

* A bigger footer with links, like [http://www.mozilla.com Mozilla]

== Metadata ==

== Homepage Layout ==

=== Ideas from Other Websites ===

* [http://www.opera.com/ Opera] - clean header navigation, eye catching design, good grid layout.

== Cleaning Up ==

* Removing/archiving old pages
* Simplifying content...

== Accessibility ==

== Resources ==

=== CSS ===

* [http://960.gs/ 960 Grid System]
* [http://www.blueprintcss.org/ Blueprint CSS Framework]

=== Information Architecture ===

==== Persuasive Navigation ====

* [http://www.digital-web.com/articles/persuasive_navigation/ DigitalWeb: Persuasive Navigation]

=== Usability ===

* [http://www.userfocus.co.uk/resources/guidelines.html Userfocus: 247 Web Usability Guidelines]

[[Category:Website]]

Talk:Website/List of Websites

2010-07-12T00:24:13Z

Ivanm:

What is meant by the column 'Template' ? I do not see what to put in there.

Response by --[[User:Ivanm|Ivanm]] 00:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC): The Template column is for describing the website's CSS + HTML. The Main website is considered the 'default', so any sub-sites that use different templates should be noted. One of the things I would like to happen in the redesign is to create a common underlying HTML + CSS framework which all sites use, so that making updates becomes really easy.

MediaWiki:Edittools

2010-07-07T11:52:34Z

Ivanm:

{{Documentation/Caution|Are you translating this page? Please read [[Help:Translating]] before you save any edits.}}

MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning2

2010-07-07T11:52:06Z

Ivanm: Created page with 'Please note that all contributions to {{SITENAME}} may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then do not…'

Please note that all contributions to {{SITENAME}} may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors.
If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then do not submit it here. 
You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource (see $1 for details).
'''Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!'''

{{Documentation/Note|Please ensure you '''categorise new pages''' ([[Special:Categories|list of categories]]) and adhere to the [[OOo_Wiki_Contribution_Rules|OpenOffice.org Wiki Contribution Rules]]}}

MediaWiki:Edittools

2010-07-07T11:31:17Z

Ivanm: Added reminder to categorise new pages

{{PT/Documentation/Note|Please ensure you '''categorise new pages''' ([[Special:Categories|list of categories]]) and adhere to the [[OOo_Wiki_Contribution_Rules|OpenOffice.org Wiki Contribution Rules]]}}
{{Documentation/Caution|Are you translating this page? Please read [[Help:Translating]] before you save any edits.}}

Website/List of Websites

2010-07-05T21:40:00Z

Ivanm: Created page with 'All websites using the openoffice.org domain are listed here: {| class="wikitable" |- ! Name ! URL ! Template ! Contact |- | Main Site | [http://www.openoffice.org http://www.op…'

All websites using the openoffice.org domain are listed here:

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Name
! URL
! Template
! Contact
|-
| Main Site
| [http://www.openoffice.org http://www.openoffice.org]
| Main Site (CollabNet template system)
| [http://website.openoffice.org Website Project]
|-
| Wiki
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org http://wiki.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom MediaWiki skin based on MonoBook
| --
|-
| User (forums)
| [http://user.services.openoffice.org http://user.services.openoffice.org]
| Main site (for homepage), Custom phpBB skin (for forums)
| --
|-
| Extensions
| [http://extensions.services.openoffice.org http://extensions.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom Drupal skin
| [http://extensions.openoffice.org/ Extensions Project]
|-
| Templates
| [http://templates.services.openoffice.org http://templates.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom Drupal skin
| --
|-
| Planet
| [http://planet.services.openoffice.org http://planet.services.openoffice.org]
| PlanetPlanet skin
| --
|-
| Conference
| [http://conference.services.openoffice.org http://conference.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom
| --
|-
| Surveys
| [http://surveys.services.openoffice.org http://surveys.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom
| --
|-
| hg (Mercurial)
| [http://hg.services.openoffice.org http://hg.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom (no OOo branding)
| --
|-
| svn
| [http://svn.services.openoffice.org http://svn.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom: homepage based on early 2008 design, plain HTML for browsing
| --
|-
| Download
| [http://download.services.openoffice.org http://download.services.openoffice.org]
| Main site (with custom logo file)
| --
|-
| QUASTE
| [http://quaste.services.openoffice.org http://quaste.services.openoffice.org]
| Custom (based on early 2008 design)
| --
|-
| eis
| [http://eis.services.openoffice.org http://eis.services.openoffice.org]
| Main site
| --
|-
| tools
| [http://tools.services.openoffice.org http://tools.services.openoffice.org]
| Main site
| --
|-
| odfnotify
| [http://odfnotify.services.openoffice.org http://odfnotify.services.openoffice.org]
| N/A (403 Forbidden error)
| --
|}

Template:Website

2010-07-05T21:18:16Z

Ivanm:

{| align=right style="width: 225px; margin: 0 0 0 15px; border:1px solid #aaaaaa; background-color:#f9f9f9; padding:5px; font-size: 95%;" class=box
|---
!align=center style="background:#ccccff;" |'''Website Project'''
|-
|

Quick Navigation:

* [[Website|Website Project Wiki Home]]
* [http://website.openoffice.org/ Website Project Home]
* [[:Category:Website|Website Wiki Category]]
* [http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?Submit+query=Submit+query&issue_type=DEFECT&issue_type=ENHANCEMENT&issue_type=FEATURE&issue_type=PATCH&component=website&subcomponent=www&issue_status=UNCONFIRMED&issue_status=NEW&issue_status=STARTED&issue_status=REOPENED&issue_status=RESOLVED&email1=&emailtype1=exact&emailassigned_to1=1&email2=&emailtype2=exact&emailreporter2=1&issueidtype=include&issue_id=&changedin=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=&chfieldvalue=&short_desc=&short_desc_type=allwords&long_desc=&long_desc_type=allwords&issue_file_loc=&issue_file_loc_type=fulltext&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=fulltext&keywords=&keywords_type=anytokens&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time Website on IssueZilla]

Main Pages:

* [[Website/how-to|Getting Started]]
* [[Website/List_of_Websites|List of websites]]
* [[Website/What's_New|What's New]]
* [[Website/Localization|Localization]]
* [[Website/Style_Guide|Style Guide]]

 <div class="plainlinks" align=right> ''[[Template:Website|View]] or [{{SERVER}}{{localurl:Template:Website|action=edit}} edit] this template.''</div>
|}
<noinclude>
[[Category:Wiki Templates for Navigation]]
</noinclude>

Website/What's New/2010 Branding Update

2010-07-05T21:12:16Z

Ivanm: Created page with 'The branding refresh was a minor visual change to update the website to better reflect the new branding without making significant modifications. Updates were made to the followi…'

The branding refresh was a minor visual change to update the website to better reflect the new branding without making significant modifications. Updates were made to the following:

* Website [[Logo|logo]] at the top-left of each page
* Favicon
* Header, navigation and tab colors
* First-level heading colors
* Project menu colors and rollover effects (menus on the left)

Color changes were based on the new lighter blue in the OpenOffice.org logo, and all new colors were derived from this.

Website/What's New

2010-07-05T21:05:33Z

Ivanm:

{{Website}}
Changes made to the OpenOffice.org website will be listed in this section.

== 2008 - 2009 ==

* An updated website design was launched in March, 2008. The last redesign was in 2005.
* [[Website/What's New/2008_Refresh|Design Refresh]] (October 2008 - January 2009)
[[Category:Website]]

== 2010 ==

* [[Website/What's New/2010_Branding_Update|Branding Update]] (June - July 2010)

Application Rebranding - Project Home Page/20100505

2010-05-22T09:04:39Z

Ivanm:

<pre>
(14:27:24) sophi [~sophi@109.129.154.26] entered the room.
(14:28:42) rosanaardila [~ra231492@nat/sun/x-swpwkkamjthshean] entered the room.
(14:52:29) eric_QA [~es93802@nat/sun/x-urjmogurjtnsehkd] entered the room.
(14:52:43) eric_QA: Hi *!
(14:54:23) frankl [~frankl@nat/sun/x-rnffnbdnaiktfame] entered the room.
(14:59:10) JensGH [~JensGH@dslb-088-076-065-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] entered the room.
(14:59:24) JensGH: hi
(15:00:08) #ooobranding: mode (+o _Nesshof_) by stx12
(15:01:19) _Nesshof_: hi, still waiting for khirano
(15:01:30) rosanaardila: Hi
(15:01:35) frankl: Hi
(15:02:17) _Nesshof_: and berhard, iirc
(15:02:56) _Nesshof_: so for those how don't know who Nesshof is:
(15:02:57) bedipp [~chatzilla@80-121-89-39.adsl.highway.telekom.at] entered the room.
(15:03:01) _Nesshof_: Martin Hollmichel
(15:03:08) _Nesshof_: hi bernhard
(15:03:14) bedipp: Hi all
(15:03:42) _Nesshof_: > so I want to pick up Sophies suggestion to create an I-Team to discuss the items listed for Application Branding on http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas#OpenOffice.org_Application and create the required spec and work as we do for other new features as usual.
(15:04:13) _Nesshof_: I suggest that we go through the list:
(15:04:22) _Nesshof_: Startcenter Usability aspects lack of color design language splashscreen Icon Themes Other UI Graphics Default Styles Help Graphics About Box
(15:04:42) _Nesshof_: and look if there are issue left we need to resolve
(15:05:03) _Nesshof_: I suggest to start with the easy ones first to get most of the agenda covered today
(15:05:21) _Nesshof_: so I start from the rear: About Box
(15:05:36) _Nesshof_: why is it on the list, which open items do we have ?
(15:06:28) JensGH: personally i don´t think there is a problem with the about box...
(15:07:22) _Nesshof_: I only remember a comment regarding flickering of the contributors list, we should simply file an issue for it, IHMO
(15:07:40) bedipp: there should be an issue
(15:07:48) _Nesshof_: so any objection to remove this item from the agenda ?
(15:07:51) _Nesshof_: oops
(15:08:13) _Nesshof_: yes, I take the action item to look for the issue or write one
(15:08:37) _Nesshof_: btw. we will use http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Application_Rebranding_-_Project_Home_Page to track our progress
(15:08:39) bedipp: i111140
(15:08:53) _Nesshof_: where's izbot ?
(15:09:17) frankl: in our UX room ;-)
(15:09:38) _Nesshof_: ok, next one on the list: Help graphics ? any comment on that one ?
(15:11:01) JensGH: maybe this is something to work with the doc team?
(15:11:16) bedipp: _Nesshof_: sorry for being so late, but we should keep in mind that the AboutBox and every other graphics should follow the general design language
(15:11:29) bedipp: once we work on it
(15:12:03) bedipp: Therefore removing it from today's agenda is ok - but not as general topic
(15:12:22) ***_Nesshof_ have almost no idea what is meant by design language
(15:13:31) bedipp: I think there will be some work on graphical areas like start center, splash, web interface ...
(15:14:08) bedipp: If we introduce other elements or new designs, the general graphical impression could change
(15:14:17) JensGH: maybe we can solve this by using the splash and add a text field, like in adobe products.. so it will fit perfectly
(15:15:32) _Nesshof_: ok
(15:15:37) bedipp: don't get me wrong: We don't need to work on the AboutBox right now - but we'll have to keep in in mind for any change in design in other areas
(15:16:15) bedipp: therefore the BrandingAreas page will need to be reviewed every now and then
(15:16:25) _Nesshof_: so we remove Help graphic also from the list, knowing that Uwe from the doc teams will read about our proceeding
(15:16:26) rosanaardila: I agree with Bernhard
(15:16:42) stx12: yes, a change may result from an update of the splash screen; but that's not a specific problem to be worked on.
(15:17:01) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is about "Default Styles"
(15:18:06) _Nesshof_: any idea about that one ? rosanaardila, you put on the page ?!
(15:18:45) rosanaardila: no, it wasn't me
(15:19:15) bedipp: who did it?
(15:19:42) bedipp: For me it is similar to the general look and feel or design language
(15:19:42) rosanaardila: I think it was Ivan
(15:19:50) rosanaardila: Default Styles (Templates, Fonts, etc)
(15:19:55) _Nesshof_: ok, then we put this on hold as well, unless Ican comment this
(15:20:02) rosanaardila: I think that's about content
(15:20:08) rosanaardila: that can be changed easily
(15:20:15) rosanaardila: I don't think it should be in scope now
(15:20:49) rosanaardila: that is more for the branding initiative in general
(15:21:06) frankl: Agree. We are working on 'Better Defaults' within the Renaissance Project. Should fit perfectly.
(15:21:21) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is other UI graphics
(15:21:42) bedipp: I'm late again -
(15:22:04) frankl: FYI: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Improving_OOo_Default_Settings
(15:22:04) bedipp: general definition of fonts for branding has been asked for some moths ago
(15:22:26) bedipp: should this not be an item for this ITeam?
(15:22:29) rosanaardila: Bernhard, I think that's up to the branding initiative to decide
(15:22:48) rosanaardila: if we are doing everything in this iteam then it should be here
(15:23:01) rosanaardila: I thought it was more about the start center
(15:23:06) rosanaardila: but maybe I missunderstood it
(15:23:51) bedipp: Looking at the agenda, we're discussing much more than the StartCenter
(15:24:05) bedipp: And I think it's reasonable
(15:24:36) bedipp: to have this iTeam meetings to discuss all the Branding Initiative actvities.
(15:24:54) _Nesshof_: bedipp: my understanding is that default styles is about document contents ?
(15:24:57) bedipp: Perhaps it will be better to have dedicated iTeams on seeral subtopics
(15:25:07) rosanaardila: ok, but then I think that it shoulbe be discussed as part of the branding guidelines
(15:25:43) bedipp: rosanaardila: ok - this should be on the agenda for one of the next meetings
(15:25:57) rosanaardila: I think "official" fonts ar emore part of the guidelines than of the templates
(15:26:44) bedipp: _Nesshof_: probably - and for marketing material etc
(15:26:49) rosanaardila: bernard do you agree on having fonts in our guidelines rather than with templates?
(15:27:25) bedipp: offficial templates should base on the guidelines
(15:27:43) bedipp: so the guidelines should be the first step
(15:27:53) rosanaardila: ok, so would it be a good idea to set an iteam for the guidelines first?
(15:28:16) bedipp: (or templates should be used as examples to create the guidelines)
(15:28:42) eric_QA: _Nesshof_: I had understood our Agenda as "Start Center" centris as first step of the big picture "Re-branding"... isn't it?
(15:28:59) eric_QA: "centric"
(15:29:29) bedipp: rosanaardila: of course - I think we could skip all point based on the guidelines for this meeting.
(15:29:53) _Nesshof_: eric_QA: I'm quite confident that this item will left over as our main effort here, but we will see
(15:30:44) _Nesshof_: ok, other UI Graphics to be removed ?
(15:31:31) JensGH: this is something for UX team, too
(15:32:07) JensGH: if there are new gfx needed they should make list for missing gfx
(15:32:31) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is Icon Themes (Indutrial, etc.)
(15:33:05) frankl: Do we talk about bitmaps in Impress Wizards for instance?
(15:33:06) JensGH: which icons we talk about? desktop or inside OOo?
(15:34:23) _Nesshof_: iirc, there some coordination with art teams of kde and gnome is desired for some of the document icons with the icon themes ?!
(15:35:59) JensGH: hm.. is it about same icons on every linux distribution?
(15:36:12) _Nesshof_: would be nice to have somebody responsible for the coordination
(15:36:19) rosanaardila: I think icon themes is a very complex matter
(15:36:29) _Nesshof_: JensGH: I'm not sure if every Linux distro use the same icons
(15:36:37) rosanaardila: without the people that actually do the bitmaps we can't decide anything
(15:37:04) JensGH: we must add some info next time on the wiki for details :-)
(15:37:04) _Nesshof_: rosanaardila: yes, and we just should coordinates these effort and ask the experts of these themes to take over
(15:37:24) rosanaardila: ok
(15:37:25) _Nesshof_: JensGH: I'm adding the infos continously
(15:37:45) bedipp: But keep in mind that they are part of the general branding, so close interaction is necessary
(15:37:46) rosanaardila: I personally son't see yet the need for a change in the icon themes
(15:38:00) rosanaardila: I think it's a big project that can wait
(15:38:14) bedipp: +1
(15:38:42) eric_QA: I don't see it which way themes are part of re-branding... don't want to play troll, just asking :)
(15:39:03) _Nesshof_: ok, next one is splashscreen
(15:39:47) _Nesshof_: eric_QA: it's more about adopted ODF Icons for the distros, can wait as rosana stated
(15:40:20) eric_QA: Now I get it! ok.
(15:40:54) JensGH: one idea during marketing conf call was the idea fading from Splash into Startcenter...
(15:41:17) _Nesshof_: JensGH: interesting idea
(15:42:12) _Nesshof_: but I assume the splash screen also is closly related to design language
(15:42:26) frankl: What's about a start center that is present in 2 seconds?
(15:42:32) bedipp: Splash and StartCenter should have the same design at least - therefore they could be discussed together
(15:42:53) JensGH: i did some ground work on my wiki page http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:JensGH there are rough ideas, but you can see startcenter and splash are the same size so they can fade...
(15:43:05) _Nesshof_: bedipp: I'm fine with that, so lets open this topic as well
(15:43:58) _Nesshof_: the open points about the start center are ?
(15:43:59) bedipp: frankl: same design would be even more necessary
(15:45:17) bedipp: usability / colors
(15:45:23) frankl: I think we should have a look on the complete start up of OOo not just changing elements we are currently used to see on start up.
(15:45:39) frankl: today.
(15:45:56) bedipp: frankl: +1
(15:46:23) bedipp: But we don't have any other words for possible startup graphics, so I'd lkie to stay with StartCenter
(15:46:38) bedipp: lkie -> like
(15:46:41) frankl: OK
(15:46:51) _Nesshof_: so what are the current issues with usability ?
(15:47:37) bedipp: people are used to different colors for different sub-applications / document types
(15:48:13) bedipp: it's easier to follow color than specific design elements or text
(15:48:43) eric_QA: bedippp: you are right but your design shows no specific color and is very usable http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/File:Start-black.png
(15:48:43) JensGH: I am missing visible buttons... last time a new user asked why only one button is active... this is the focus on mac...
(15:49:14) eric_QA: Sorry! not bedipp! JensGH
(15:49:41) JensGH: yes i did it in a very open style...
(15:50:30) frankl: Erverybody claims that this or that design is 'very usable'. Did anyone made a test?
(15:51:03) eric_QA: For me it is the best example one *can* forget about colors BUT be clear and "sexy" (my taste!)
(15:52:19) bedipp: I agree that color is not the basic of usable elements, but an easy one - good design can provide other means to reach the same goal.
(15:52:23) JensGH: one important thing is no unnecessary eye candy
(15:52:31) _Nesshof_: frankl: which use cases we are talking about when talking about the startcenter ?
(15:53:20) frankl: I think we should think about the requirements first. What problem is solved by the Start Center. Why has it been introduced? Are there any new requirements today?
(15:53:34) JensGH: i remember the old menu selection 2.0
(15:53:37) JensGH: this was bad
(15:53:47) frankl: ?
(15:54:18) JensGH: in OOo 2.0 you started and ended with a menu for selection ( writer, calc.. )
(15:54:45) frankl: The backing window?
(15:55:22) JensGH: yes there was no startmenu, just a normal window menu
(15:56:14) frankl: I remember. I think that was done just to keep the DLLs in memory. Technical trick with bad UI implementation.
(15:56:41) sts_ [~irchon@wlan-sun.staroffice.de] entered the room.
(15:56:48) JensGH: i think the startcenter is a very important part in 3.0 for better novice user experience...
(15:56:49) _Nesshof_: so one requirement seems to be: quickly start the right thing (application) to get my problem solved, e.g. start Calc
(15:57:03) JensGH: +1
(15:57:04) _Nesshof_: JensGH: ack
(15:57:48) _Nesshof_: or open a file or template
(15:57:54) eric_QA: I just had a call with the dev who implemented the SC: "some people found the gray area ugly"... now it seems that some other people want it back if they want: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=90815
(15:58:05) frankl: But what is with templates? Starting on plain ground looks not so impressive nowadays.
(15:58:05) bedipp: second: use this element to support our branding / visual impression
(15:59:19) frankl: That is the point. You will always find someone telling you that you are wrong. So let us collect requirements and then come up with a proposal.
(15:59:27) bedipp: frankl: template selection should be more informative than nowadays - and based on the same graphical elements
(16:00:18) JensGH: i remember people asking me what to do after they start OOo.. they never used anything than wordpad... so i must guide them to the menu... know they see what is possible... i think it is a bad idea removing it
(16:01:25) JensGH: now ^^ - ups
(16:01:57) bedipp: So the StartCenter should give a hand to novices as well as provide a direct access to every area
(16:03:45) frankl: OK.
(16:03:48) frankl: If you start a single application (i.e. Writer) what should happen? Today Writer shows up with an empty document. Why?
(16:04:29) JensGH: it is a shortcut
(16:04:39) bedipp: Just because the author doesn't select a different template.
(16:04:50) frankl: If we could integrate the template chooser in SC, we could show the template part when you start a single application.
(16:04:51) bedipp: In Impress it's different
(16:05:10) frankl: Impress comes up with an wizard.
(16:05:20) bedipp: But I'm annoyed of going through the wizard every time...
(16:05:54) frankl: Within Renaissance we had the question - who whats that wizard to come up each time?
(16:06:11) eric_QA: frankl: not sure Wizards and template lists take the novice user by the hand....
(16:06:29) bedipp: The StartCenter could provide direct access to a few most important templates (modifyable of course)
(16:06:33) JensGH: maybe we could add a template icon behind every button so the single app comes up with a template wizard...
(16:06:49) frankl: So we have used the data we get thru usage tracking and could see that many people do use it. Most time they hit OK on page 3.
(16:06:55) bedipp: behind -> besides =
(16:07:08) JensGH: yes
(16:07:35) sophi: frankl: in most companies I have migrated, the wizard was disable
(16:07:49) ***_Nesshof_ don't want to make first meeting to long, we should reduce our efforts to list the open points we want to work on and not yet work on details today
(16:07:55) frankl: Why?
(16:08:14) eric_QA: _Nesshof_ +1!
(16:08:51) bedipp: I did a mockup that presents the template access more prominently (could show it after the official meeting)
(16:08:55) sophi: frankl: because they used the template provided by the company or a previous presentation
(16:09:10) frankl: bedipp: OK
(16:10:34) frankl: sophi: So our template chooser, showing the company CIed presentations, would be a good idea.
(16:10:42) frankl: then.
(16:11:29) sts_ left the room (quit: Read error: No route to host).
(16:11:41) sts_ [~irchon@wlan-sun.staroffice.de] entered the room.
(16:11:56) sophi: frankl: yes, most of the time we add a menu entry in the File menu to provide a direct access to the templates, so it would be a very good idea to have a this chooser
(16:12:36) eric_QA: _Nesshof_: can you please sum up the remaining points + new points?
(16:12:36) _Nesshof_: ok, do we have more open points we need to talk about ?
(16:12:36) bedipp: I don't know how to proceed with the startcenter right now - it's mostly part of our general branding that hasn't been defined by now.
(16:13:15) _Nesshof_: bedipp: that's about the design language ?
(16:13:43) bedipp: yes - general OOo design - our goals etc
(16:14:29) _Nesshof_: rosanaardila: is this in your scope as well ? do we have the right people on board ?
(16:15:06) rosanaardila: I also think that the design language should be discussed
(16:15:14) _Nesshof_: ok
(16:15:24) rosanaardila: for me it's crucial to finish at least the logo usage guidelines
(16:15:52) _Nesshof_: my plan is to have this meeting now on weekly basis, to publish the full log and to keep the wiki updated
(16:15:52) bedipp: What do we want to reach with out branding / design?
(16:16:35) rosanaardila: Bernhard, I think that's partly a marketing question
(16:16:36) bedipp: And we can use additional lots to discuss topics here in the IRC
(16:16:41) _Nesshof_: and I will try to be here on this channel on 8pm to collect additional feedback regading our progress
(16:16:46) _Nesshof_: bedipp: yes
(16:17:07) _Nesshof_: at the moment we have no developer on board yet
(16:17:12) bedipp: rosanaardila: of course - marketing and branding are very close in scope
(16:17:54) sts_ left the room (quit: Quit: sts_).
(16:17:55) bedipp: _Nesshof_: what should a dev work on at this point of our work?
(16:18:12) _Nesshof_: so who is interested in contributing to this team, please add your name and comments on http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Application_Rebranding_-_Project_Home_Page
(16:18:33) _Nesshof_: bedipp: no idea, so I also don't consider this as problem at this stage
(16:18:43) _Nesshof_: same applies for documentation
(16:18:48) bedipp: Implementing graphical elements will have to be done later...
(16:18:53) sts_ [~irchon@wlan-sun.staroffice.de] entered the room.
(16:19:00) _Nesshof_: of course they are welcome to contribute to this discussion
(16:19:40) _Nesshof_: did I miss something urgent for today ?
(16:19:44) bedipp: Documentation is more important, because there might be preconditions for our official documents they want to be implemented
(16:20:16) _Nesshof_: bedipp: we keep Uwe and Frank in the loop
(16:20:19) eric_QA: _Nesshof_: we should think about "inviting" a DEV anyway which will be able to judge about feasability of our proposals...
(16:20:29) eric_QA: Effort... Risk...
(16:21:51) _Nesshof_: ok, so everybody is fine to close for today ?
(16:22:00) rosanaardila: I'm fine
</pre>

User:Ivanm

2010-05-22T03:21:08Z

Ivanm:

User:Ivanm

2010-05-22T03:20:44Z

Ivanm:

[[Category:User Experience]]
[[Category:User Experience Community]]
[[Category:Art]]
== Introduction ==
Hello everyone,

My name is Ivan, and I am (or try to be) an active member of the OpenOffice.org [[Branding]] and [[Website]] projects. The biggest contribution I have made to OOo so far has been as the lead designer of the OOo website during the 2007-2008 redesign and the Project Renaissance logo, and I hope to do much more in the future as my skill set increases.

A little bit about me: I'm 21, live in New Zealand and am in my final year of a BA/BSc conjoint majoring in Computer Science, Psychology, Sociology and English.

== Current Tasks ==

* Helping with the creation of a new [[Design_Artwork_and_Branding_Project_Proposal|branding project]] to ensure a common visual identity for OOo
* Moving the OOo website to Kenai infrastructure

== Mailing Lists ==

=== Regularly ===
* Branding
* Website

=== Less Frequently ===
* User Experience (UX)
* Native Language
* Marketing

== Completed Tasks ==
* [[Art/Visual_Concept_Proposals|Submitting a design for new OOo Logo proposals]]
* [[Art/Gallery/Renaissance_Logo|Submitting designs for Project Renaissance Logo]] (December 2008 - January 2009)
* Wiki Refresh (June 2008; Progressive changes November 2008 - January 2009)
* [[Website/What's_New/2008_Refresh|Website Refresh]] (November - December 2008)
* [[Art/Splash_Screen/Proposals|Submitting designs for OOo 3 Splash Screen contest]] (February 2007; June-July 2008)
* Website Redesign (March 2008)

== Scratchpad ==
=== UX Ideas ===
* [http://humanized.com/weblog/2006/09/11/monolog_boxes_and_transparent_messages/ Transparent Messages]
* Make greater use of inline boxes rather than modal dialogs (e.g. spell checking)
* [[User_Experience/StartCenter|dashboard]]

=== Visual Design Ideas ===
* New fontwork (OOo's equivalent of WordArt)
* Implement an attractive design for Help pages to improve readability - ask about the rendering engine behind the help pages (HTML?) and its capacities (if there is an HTML engine, it could be used to power the dashboard)
* Enable transparency on the splash screen
* Application background (something less dreary) as [http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=3760 Johannes Eva has noted]
* Visual Design i-Team to represent branding/identity
* Improve the Galaxy print icon
* Clip art gallery and online download functionality
* Visual identity/design blog to inform people of what's going on in the project (both inside OOo and outside it)
* Transparent, minimalist splash screen:
[[Image:MinimalistSplashScreen.png]]

== Icon Set Optimisations ==

OpenOffice.org comes with 6 different icon sets. Do we really need so many icon sets (many of which are outdated)? We could reduce the size of the OpenOffice.org installer considerably (my estimate is 5-10%) by making some changes to the way the icon sets are stored. This will also save bandwidth costs. Which ones do we get rid of? And can we make the remaining icon sets take up even less space? The answers to these questions requires a discussion.

Firstly, let's look at the icon sets that OpenOffice.org ships with. You can find them in /Basis/share/config/ - each theme is stored in its own zip file. You can change the icon set in OpenOffice.org by clicking Tools -> Options -> View -> Icon Size and Style.

{|- class="wikitable" border="1"
! Name
! Size (zip)
! Location in Source
|-
| Default (Galaxy)
| 5,484,155 bytes
| /default_images
|-
| High Contrast
| 3,853,422 bytes
| ???
|-
| Tango
| 4,868,332 bytes
| /ooo_custom_images/tango
|-
| Crystal
| 5,319,979 bytes
| /external_images
|-
| Industrial
| 4,835,108 bytes
| /ooo_custom_images/industrial
|-
| Classic
| 3,426,189 bytes
| /ooo_custom_images/classic
|}

As far as I can see, there are 4 main optimizations that can be made, each of which is a discussion in itself...

=== 1. Getting rid of unnecessary icon sets ===

Two candidates for instant removal would be Classic and Industrial. Tango and Crystal are (were?) used for GNOME and KDE environments respectively, although Galaxy should be the default for both. Do we keep these too?

The matter isn't as simple as deleting the zip files: the icon sets' names are hard coded into OpenOffice.org in /vcl/source/app/settings.cxx
We could just ask for the unnecessary icon sets to be removed, but it would be nice if this could be dynamic rather than static. One additional option might be to have icon themes as extensions.

=== 2. PNGOUT ===

The vast majority of icons in each set are PNG files so we can optimize them with PNGOUT, which gets rid of unnecessary data contained inside each PNG file. The savings across thousands of files are quite impressive:

==== Galaxy Icon Set (When Uncompressed) ====

Original Size: 4,629,012 bytes

After PNGOUT: 3,638,521 bytes (78.6% of original size)

=== 3. Remove Duplicates Within Icon Sets ===

One of the most obvious instances of duplication is the high contrast icons: they are represented in their own icon set, but they are also located in the Galaxy icon set. If we got rid of the High Contrast icons in the Galaxy icon set (which appear to be exactly the same as those in the High Contrast icon set), we could save some space.

A more tricky example is the duplication of icons due to the way they are stored. The same image may appear multiple times in a single icon set. For example:
sx03125.png
sx03137.png
sx03140.png
sx03152.png
sx03153.png
sx03154.png
sx03155.png
sx03158.png
sx03219.png
are all copies of the same icon.

There is also an inconsistency in the naming of icon files: some make little sense (like above), while others have better naming (e.g., image.png). The gains might not be worth the amout of time needed to make this work though.

=== 4. Improve Compression ===

Each icon set consists of several thousand files which are stored in a single .zip file. This is done for a very good reason: if all these files were extracted, there would be a huge overhead from all the file system data keeping track of each file. We can increase the compression of the icon sets without adversely affecting memory. According to 7Zip, the difference between 'Store' and 'Ultra' compression settings is less than 1MB of memory needed for decompressing. I have tested both settings and OpenOffice.org opens them fine. This can save an extra 100-200 KB per icon set. The question is, is it worth it?

File:MinimalistSplashScreen.png

2010-05-22T00:48:50Z

Ivanm:

File:Ivan StartCenter Proposal wireframe.png

2010-05-22T00:11:55Z

Ivanm:

Website/2010 Redesign/Ideas

2010-05-18T23:03:18Z

Ivanm:

== CSS ==

* We should endeavour to use a common CSS framework across all sites (which also implies a common HTML framework - in terms of layout). Right now, each site uses its own CSS adapted from the main website with different classes, etc. Creating a robust and reusable CSS framework would be one of the top priorities; it would serve as the base, and other websites could then build on it.

== Header ==

=== Two-tier Navigation Proposal ===

We could have a two-level menu (CSS-only): the top level, consisting of main items, and a sub-menu for some of the items (triggered by rollover). The top level menu links would be clickable (therefore it would remain accessible) but the submenu could provide one-click access to specific areas of the website (e.g., 1 click access to the issue tracker from the developer menu item). The most commonly accessed sub-link would be directly under its parent link.

Alternatively we can avoid using popup menus as they can be hard to navigate and use two horizontal bars for the navigation with second bar display on click. This can allow us to have consistent navigation as sub menu pages can always display second bar by default. UX project should have a strong say in, we should consider all the possible options with regard to navigation.

# Home (Do we need it? Could the logo serve this purpose like on [http://www.mozilla.org mozilla.org]?)
# News
## Press Releases
## Planet
# Download(s)
## Latest Version
## Extensions
## Templates
## Clipart
## Developer Previews
# Projects (or Community)
## How to Join (or Join Us)
## A few links to major projects
## More projects >>
# Support
## Forums
## Tutorials
## Books
## Commercial Support
# Wiki
# Development
## Getting Started
## Source Code
## Issue Tracker
# About

In a discussion on the mailing list, [http://website.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=11421 Goran suggested another] site navigation structure that is trying to better reflect "OpenOffice.org is both a product and an open source project (community)". It does not require any new content to be written.

#News
## Press releases
## Blog planets
## Newsletter
# Office suite
## Download!
## Awards and reviews
## Extensions
## Templates
## Clipart
## Projects
# Contribute
## Ideas how to help
## Issue tracker
## Development
# Support
# Wiki
# About community
## Open source
## Community vision
## Organization and governance
## Project leads
## Language communities

== Footer ==

* A bigger footer with links, like [http://www.mozilla.com Mozilla]

== Metadata ==

== Homepage Layout ==

== Cleaning Up ==

* Removing/archiving old pages
* Simplifying content...

== Accessibility ==

== Resources ==

=== CSS ===

* [http://960.gs/ 960 Grid System]
* [http://www.blueprintcss.org/ Blueprint CSS Framework]

=== Information Architecture ===

==== Persuasive Navigation ====

* [http://www.digital-web.com/articles/persuasive_navigation/ DigitalWeb: Persuasive Navigation]

=== Usability ===

* [http://www.userfocus.co.uk/resources/guidelines.html Userfocus: 247 Web Usability Guidelines]

[[Category:Website]]

Website/2010 Redesign

2010-05-18T23:03:06Z

Ivanm:

This page contains a list of early ideas for the 2010 website redesign.

== Rationale ==

With OpenOffice.org's new branding comes a need to re-evaluate the design of the website. The [[Branding_Initiative | branding initiative]] is working on defining a new visual language/design for OpenOffice.org which the new website will need to reflect.

== Roadmap ==

We do not yet know when the website will be migrated to the Kenai infrastructure, nor do we know precisely what features Kenai will offer (currently, the migration has been reported as being stalled). This gives us time to propose a new design so that the migration can be simplified and the new design can go up earlier rather than later.

The process could be completed in the following stages:

=== Ideas Stage ===

While the branding project prepares the new branding guidelines and graphics, we can discuss what we would like in the new website in detail (with other projects too once we have a discussion framework in place)

* [[Website/2010 Redesign/Ideas | Ideas Page]]

=== Mockups (Call for Proposals) ===

When the branding project gives the green light, we could issue a call for proposals. The chosen design(s) could then be iteratively developed (refined) in a collaborative process.

=== Static HTML/CSS Implementation ===

This would involve the creation of a basic HTML skeleton and a CSS framework which can be adapted across OpenOffice.org's various websites (e.g. wiki, templates, extensions, planet...)

=== Deployment ===

...

[[Category:Website]]

Website/2010 Redesign

2010-05-15T05:10:07Z

Ivanm:

Website/2010 Redesign/Ideas

2010-05-15T03:25:16Z

Ivanm:

Website/2010 Redesign/Ideas

2010-05-14T22:42:23Z

Ivanm: Created page with '== CSS == * We should endeavour to use a common CSS framework across all sites (which also implies a common HTML framework - in terms of layout). Right now, each site uses its o…'

Website/2010 Redesign

2010-05-14T22:05:21Z

Ivanm: Created page with 'This page contains a list of early ideas for the 2010 website redesign. == Rationale == With OpenOffice.org's new branding comes a need to re-evaluate the design of the website…'

This page contains a list of early ideas for the 2010 website redesign.

== Rationale ==

With OpenOffice.org's new branding comes a need to re-evaluate the design of the website. The [[http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative | branding project]] is working on defining a new visual language for OpenOffice.org, and the new website will need to reflect that.

== Roadmap ==

We do not yet know when the website will be migrated to the Kenai infrastructure, nor do we know precisely what features Kenai will offer. At the moment, the migration has been reported as being stalled. This gives us time to propose a new design so that the migration can be simplified.

The process could be completed in the following stages:

=== Ideas Stage ===

While the branding project prepares the new branding guidelines and graphics, we can discuss what we would like in the new website in detail (and in

* [[Website/2010 Redesign/Ideas | Ideas Page]]

=== Mockups (Call for Proposals) ===

When the branding project gives the green light, we could issue a call for proposals. The chosen design(s) could then be iteratively developed (refined) in a collaborative process.

=== Static HTML/CSS Implementation ===

This would involve the creation of a basic HTML skeleton and a CSS framework which can be adapted across OpenOffice.org's various websites (e.g. wiki, templates, extensions, planet...)

=== Deployment ===

...

File:OOoPlanetDraft.png

2010-05-12T23:37:04Z

Ivanm:

Branding Initiative/branding guidelines draft

2010-05-06T20:34:16Z

Ivanm:

= Branding Guidelines Draft =

This is a draft for the OpenOffice.org Branding Guidelines. Elements for discussion can be posted here. The content of this site is not yet official.

 

== Identity Statement ==

=== Mission Statement ===

<blockquote>To create, as a community, the leading international office suite that will run on all major platforms and provide access to all functionality and data through open-component based APIs and an XML-based file format.</blockquote>

* What does OOo stand for? What general ideas/statements do we want OOo's branding to be guided by?

=== OpenOffice.org stands for ===

* Openness
* Freedom
* Interoperability (Standards)
* ...

=== How OpenOffice.org's branding reflects this ===

* How do the aforementioned values translate to OOo's branding: minimalism? sharp/crisp/clear presentation? This is an opportunity to set some directions for designers (it could also be developed on the way as OOo's new branding develops)

== Brand Colors ==

{{Documentation/Caution|Please '''do not use the color picker''' to extract the colors. The colors shown on your screen may have been already altered by your computer's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_management color management system].}}

=== Logo ===

[[Image:OOo color web.png]]

 

=== Table ===

{| class="prettytable"
|-
| width="100" height="100" |
| align="center" width="150" style="background: rgb(14, 133, 205) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous; color: white;" | '''Blue'''
| align="center" width="150" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous; color: white;" | '''Black'''
|-
| HEX
| 0E85CD
| 000000
|-
| RGB
| 14 133 205
| 0 0 0
|-
| CMYK
| tbd
| tbd
|-
| Pantone
| tbd
| tbd
|}

 

== Logo: DO's ==

=== White Space Logo ===

Here are two proposals for the white space rule for the logo:

'''1. '''[[Image:Logo OOo space more.png]]

 

'''2.'''[[Image:Logo OOo space.png]] 

=== Logo Inverse ===

'''1. Blue: '''

[[Image:Logo_OOo_invers_blue.png]]

'''2. Black:'''

[[Image:Logo_OOo_invers_black.png]]

=== Logo Black and White ===

* Please add images here

=== Gulls ===

* Guidelines on using the gulls by themselves (e.g. the gull orb)

=== Minimum Sizes ===

* Minimum sizes for OOo logo and gull orb

== Logo DON'Ts ==

=== Don't change colors ===

Never change the color of the logo.

[[Image:New logo dont change color.png]]

 

=== Don't stretch the logo ===

Never stretch the logo from it's original form but respect its aspect ratio.

[[Image:New logo dont stretch1.png]] [[Image:New logo dont stretch2.png]]

 

=== Use an appropriate background color ===

Don't use background colors that negatively affects readability of the logo.

[[Image:New logo use appropriate bg1.png]] [[Image:New logo use appropriate bg2.png]]

 

=== Do not move the elements ===

Do not place the gulls on a different place.

[[Image:New logo dont move elements.png]]

=== Don't remove the trademark symbol ===

* (?)

[[Category:Visual_Design]] [[Category:Branding]] [[Category:Marketing]] [[Category:Art]]

Branding Initiative/branding guidelines draft

2010-05-06T19:48:37Z

Ivanm:

= Branding Guidelines Draft =

This is a draft for the OpenOffice.org Branding Guidelines. Elements for discussion can be posted here. The content of this site is not yet official.

 

== Brand Colors ==

{{Documentation/Caution|Please '''do not use the color picker''' to extract the colors. The colors shown on your screen may have been already altered by your computer's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_management color management system].}}

=== Logo ===

[[Image:OOo color web.png]]

 

=== Table ===

{| class="prettytable"
|-
| width="100" height="100" |
| align="center" width="150" style="background: rgb(14, 133, 205) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous; color: white;" | '''Blue'''
| align="center" width="150" style="background: rgb(0, 0, 0) none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous; color: white;" | '''Black'''
|-
| HEX
| 0E85CD
| 000000
|-
| RGB
| 14 133 205
| 0 0 0
|-
| CMYK
| tbd
| tbd
|-
| Pantone
| tbd
| tbd
|}

 

[[Category:Visual_Design]] [[Category:Branding]] [[Category:Marketing]] [[Category:Art]]

== Logo: DO's ==

=== White Space Logo ===

Here are two proposals for the white space rule for the logo:

'''1. '''[[Image:Logo OOo space more.png]]

 

'''2.'''[[Image:Logo OOo space.png]] 

=== Logo Inverse ===

'''1. Blue: '''

[[Image:Logo_OOo_invers_blue.png]]

'''2. Black:'''

[[Image:Logo_OOo_invers_black.png]]

=== Logo Black and White ===

* Please add images here

=== Gulls ===

* Guidelines on using the gulls by themselves (e.g. the gull orb)

=== Minimum Sizes ===

* Minimum sizes for OOo logo and gull orb

== Logo DON'Ts ==

=== Don't change colors ===

Never change the color of the logo.

[[Image:New logo dont change color.png]]

 

=== Don't stretch the logo ===

Never stretch the logo from it's original form but respect its aspect ratio.

[[Image:New logo dont stretch1.png]] [[Image:New logo dont stretch2.png]]

 

=== Use an appropriate background color ===

Don't use background colors that negatively affects readability of the logo.

[[Image:New logo use appropriate bg1.png]] [[Image:New logo use appropriate bg2.png]]

 

=== Do not move the elements ===

Do not place the gulls on a different place.

[[Image:New logo dont move elements.png]]

=== Don't remove the trademark symbol ===

* (?)

[[Category:Branding]] [[Category:Marketing]]

Branding Initiative/Branding Areas

2010-05-04T21:51:17Z

Ivanm:

All applicable areas of branding within OpenOffice.org are listed below...

== Universal ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Logo
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|

* [http://www.openoffice.org/trademark/brandrefresh.html Announcement]
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/logo_color.svg?rev=1.2 SVG Source]

|-
| Supporting Branding Elements
|
|
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/symbol_color.svg?rev=1.2 OOo Symbol (Gulls in Orb)]
|-
| Main Color Pallet
| Discussions in progress...
|
* [[Brand_Colors|Brand Colors]]
|-
| Main Icon Theme
|
|
* [http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html Galaxy Icons]
|}

== Online ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Main Website Design
|
|
|-
| Wiki Design
|
|
|-
| Extensions Website
|
|
|-
| Templates Website
|
|
|-
| Planet & Blogs
|
|
|-
| Web Buttons
|
|
|}

== Installation ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Setup Icon
|
|
|-
| Setup Graphics
|
|
|}

== Desktop and File System ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Application Icons
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Mimetype (File Type) Icons
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|
|}

== OpenOffice.org Application ==

{| border="1" width="100%" class="wikitable"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| [[Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/splash_screen|Splash Screen]]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/start_center Start Center]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Icon Theme(s)
|
|
|-
| Other UI Graphics
|
|
|-
| Default Styles (Templates, Fonts, etc)
|
|
|-
| Wizard Graphics
|
|
|-
| Help Graphics
|
|
|-
| About Screen
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|}

== Print ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Business Cards
|
|
|-
| Pamphlets & Flyers
|
|
|-
| CD Covers and Labels
|
|
|-
| Banners
|
|
|-
| Letterheads
|
|
|-
| Manuals, Guidelines and Documentation
|
|
|}

== Groups, Projects & Events ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Conference Logo
| Finalized for 2010
|
* [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoCon2010/Logo_Proposals OpenOffice.org Conference 2010 Logo]
|-
| Native Language Confederation Logo
|
|
|}
[[Category:Branding]]

Branding Initiative/Branding Areas

2010-05-04T21:40:02Z

Ivanm:

All applicable areas of branding within OpenOffice.org are listed below...

== Universal ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Logo
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|

* [http://www.openoffice.org/trademark/brandrefresh.html Announcement]
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/logo_color.svg?rev=1.2 SVG Source]

|-
| Supporting Branding Elements
|
|
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/symbol_color.svg?rev=1.2 OOo Symbol (Gulls in Orb)]
|-
| Main Color Pallet
| Discussions in progress...
|
* [[Brand_Colors|Brand Colors]]
|-
| Main Icon Theme
|
|
* [http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html Galaxy Icons]
|}

== Online ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Main Website Design
|
|
|-
| Wiki Design
|
|
|-
| Extensions Website
|
|
|-
| Templates Website
|
|
|-
| Planet & Blogs
|
|
|-
| Web Buttons
|
|
|}

== Installation ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Setup Icon
|
|
|-
| Setup Graphics
|
|
|}

== Desktop and File System ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Application Icons
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Mimetype (File Type) Icons
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|
|}

== OpenOffice.org Application ==

{| border="1" width="100%" class="wikitable"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| [[Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/splash_screen|Splash Screen]]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/start_center Start Center]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Icon Theme(s)
|
|
|-
| Other UI Graphics
|
|
|-
| Default Styles (Templates, Fonts, etc)
|
|
|-
| Wizard Graphics
|
|
|-
| Help Graphics
|
|
|-
| About Screen
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|}

== Print ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Business Cards
|
|
|-
| Pamphlets & Flyers
|
|
|-
| CD Covers and Labels
|
|
|-
| Banners
|
|
|-
| Letterheads
|
|
|-
| Manuals, Guidelines and Documentation
|
|
|}

== Special Groups & Events ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Conference Logo
| Finalized for 2010
|
* [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoCon2010/Logo_Proposals OpenOffice.org Conference 2010 Logo]
|-
| Native Language Confederation Logo
|
|
|}
[[Category:Branding]]

Branding Initiative/Branding Areas

2010-05-04T21:39:41Z

Ivanm:

All applicable areas of branding within OpenOffice.org are listed below...

== Universal ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Logo
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|

* [http://www.openoffice.org/trademark/brandrefresh.html Announcement]
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/logo_color.svg?rev=1.2 SVG Source]

|-
| Supporting Branding Elements
|
|
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/symbol_color.svg?rev=1.2 OOo Symbol (Gulls in Orb)]
|-
| Main Color Pallet
| Discussions in progress...
|
* [[Brand_Colors|Brand Colors]]
|-
| Main Icon Theme
|
|
* [http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html Galaxy Icons]
|}

== Online ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Main Website Design
|
|
|-
| Wiki Design
|
|
|-
| Extensions Website
|
|
|-
| Templates Website
|
|
|-
| Planet & Blogs
|
|
|-
| Web Buttons
|
|
|}

== Installation ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Setup Icon
|
|
|-
| Setup Graphics
|
|
|}

== Desktop and File System ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Application Icons
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Mimetype (File Type) Icons
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|
|}

== OpenOffice.org Application ==

{| border="1" width="100%" class="wikitable"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| [[Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/splash_screen|Splash Screen]]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/start_center Start Center]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Icon Theme(s)
|
|
|-
| Other UI Graphics
|
|
|-
| Default Styles (Templates, Fonts, etc)
|
|
|-
| Wizard Graphics
|
|
|-
| Help Graphics
|
|
|-
| About Screen
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|}

== Print ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Business Cards
|
|
|-
| Pamphlets & Flyers
|
|
|-
| CD Covers and Labels
|
|
|-
| Banners
|
|
|-
| Letterheads
|
|
|-
| Manuals, Guidelines and Documentation
|
|
|}

== Special Groups & Events ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Conference Logo
| Finalized for 2010
|
* [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoCon2010/Logo_Proposals | OpenOffice.org Conference 2010 Logo]
|-
| Native Language Confederation Logo
|
|
|}
[[Category:Branding]]

Branding Initiative/Branding Areas

2010-05-04T21:38:43Z

Ivanm:

All applicable areas of branding within OpenOffice.org are listed below...

== Universal ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Logo
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|

* [http://www.openoffice.org/trademark/brandrefresh.html Announcement]
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/logo_color.svg?rev=1.2 SVG Source]

|-
| Supporting Branding Elements
|
|
* [http://www.openoffice.org/source/browse/*checkout*/www/www/trademark/symbol_color.svg?rev=1.2 OOo Symbol (Gulls in Orb)]
|-
| Main Color Pallet
| Discussions in progress...
|
* [[Brand_Colors|Brand Colors]]
|-
| Main Icon Theme
|
|
* [http://ui.openoffice.org/VisualDesign/OOo_galaxy.html Galaxy Icons]
|}

== Online ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Main Website Design
|
|
|-
| Wiki Design
|
|
|-
| Extensions Website
|
|
|-
| Templates Website
|
|
|-
| Planet & Blogs
|
|
|-
| Web Buttons
|
|
|}

== Installation ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Setup Icon
|
|
|-
| Setup Graphics
|
|
|}

== Desktop and File System ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Application Icons
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Mimetype (File Type) Icons
| Finalized in 3.2.1
|
|}

== OpenOffice.org Application ==

{| border="1" width="100%" class="wikitable"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| [[Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/splash_screen|Splash Screen]]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Branding_Initiative/Branding_Areas/start_center Start Center]
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Icon Theme(s)
|
|
|-
| Other UI Graphics
|
|
|-
| Default Styles (Templates, Fonts, etc)
|
|
|-
| Wizard Graphics
|
|
|-
| Help Graphics
|
|
|-
| About Screen
| Ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|}

== Print ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Business Cards
|
|
|-
| Pamphlets & Flyers
|
|
|-
| CD Covers and Labels
|
|
|-
| Banners
|
|
|-
| Letterheads
|
|
|-
| Manuals, Guidelines and Documentation
|
|
|}

== Special Groups & Events ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1" width="100%"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Conference Logo
| Finalized for 2010
|
* [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoCon2010/Logo_Proposals|OpenOffice.org Conference 2010 Logo]
|-
| Native Language Confederation Logo
|
|
|}
[[Category:Branding]]

Basic thoughts for branding guidelines

2010-04-29T04:55:26Z

Ivanm:

[[Category:Branding]][[Category:Marketing]]
{{Documentation/Note|Note: These are not the current official branding guidelines. This page is intended to collect ideas for the new branding guidelines in the new branding initiative framework. For more information on the current branding guidelines, please visit the [[Branding Initiative/Find|Find Branding Material]] page. }}

= About branding =
== Logo Orange ==
[http://www.logoorange.com/corporate-identity-manual-brand-style-guide.php A site] with a short description with the purpose of branding guidelines.

== Ubuntu ==

[https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/VisualIdentity?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ubuntu_brandmark_interim_guides.pdf Interim Logo Guide]

== Wikipedia ==
The description on branding and visual identity on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand_identity Wikipedia].

== OOo Branding initiative ==
More information on what branding is on the [[Branding Initiative]] page.

== Pantone ==
[http://www.pantone.com This website] talks about colors in everyway possible. Here you can find an article about [http://www.pantone.com/pages/pantone/Pantone.aspx?pg=19890&ca=1 spot colors vs process colors].

= Examples =
Below you can find a list with branding guidelines from other companies that can be used as a base to define our new policy.

== Designertalk ==
[http://www.designerstalk.com/corpid/ A list] with branding guidelines from different well-known companies with a strong visual identity

Some recommended to read:

* [http://www.designerstalk.com/uploads/corpid/DTBertelsman_Brand-Guidleines.pdf Bertelsmann AG]
** Very complete and detailed branding guidelines
* [http://www.designerstalk.com/uploads/corpid/Albany_Graphic_Identity_Manual_2.0.pdf University of Albany]
* Many others...

== Other websites ==

=== Cunard Line ===
[http://www.cunardguidelines.com/ Their guidelines] have an interesting list of terminology. About how certain words are used in formal and informal speech and what words and brand names not to use in communication. They also use British English as their standard language for communication.

=== University of Cambridge ===
[http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/communications/services/identityguidelines/guidelines-full.pdf They] talk about grid layout for publications and accessibility.

=== Sun Microsystems, inc. ===
Find out their [http://www.scribd.com/doc/20191/Brand-Identity-Sun-Microsystems logo usage guidelines] and their [http://logos.sun.com/content_blocks/Sun_Logo_Guidelines_04-04.pdf general logo guidelines]

=== Oracle ===
[ftp://ftp.oracle.com/sales/outgoing/interactive/brandcreative-files/BrandCreative_guidelines.pdf Brand creative guidelines] and [http://www.oracle.com/global/hu/corporate/pressroom/sig_guidelines.pdf signature guidelines]

= Content of OOo branding guidelines =
Here you can add in a structured order how the branding guidelines should look like and what it definitely should contain.

User:Ivanm/Books/Mercurial

2010-04-23T11:38:44Z

Ivanm: Created page with '{{saved_book}} :Mercurial :Mercurial/Getting Started :Mercurial/Setup :Mercurial/Cws :Mercurial/Tips And Tricks Mercurial'

{{saved_book}}

:[[Mercurial]]
:[[Mercurial/Getting Started]]
:[[Mercurial/Setup]]
:[[Mercurial/Cws]]
:[[Mercurial/Tips And Tricks]]

[[Category:Books|Mercurial]]

Branding Initiative/Branding Areas

2010-03-25T20:53:25Z

Ivanm:

Branding Initiative/Branding Areas

2010-03-24T21:04:26Z

Ivanm:

All applicable areas of branding within OpenOffice.org are listed below...

== Universal ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Logo
| finalized, in 3.2.1
| [http://www.openoffice.org/trademark/brandrefresh.html Announcement]
|-
| Supporting Branding Elements
|
|
|-
| Main Color Pallet
|
|-
| Main Icon Theme
|
|
|}

== Online ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Main Website Design
|
|
|-
| Wiki Design
|
|
|-
| Extensions Website
|
|
|-
| Templates Website
|
|
|-
| Planet & Blogs
|
|
|-
| Web Buttons
|
|
|}

== Installation ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Setup Icon
|
|
|-
| Setup Graphics
|
|
|}

== Desktop and File System ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Application Icons
| finalized, in 3.2.1
|
|-
| Mimetype (File Type) Icons
|
|
|}

== OpenOffice.org Application ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Splash Screen
| ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|-
| Start Center
| ready in 3.2.1
|
|-
| Icon Theme(s)
|
|
|-
| Other UI Graphics
|
|
|-
| Default Styles (Fonts, etc)
|
|
|-
| Wizard Graphics
|
|
|-
| Help Graphics
|
|
|-
| About Screen
| ready in 3.2.1, open with some constraints for future versions
|
|}

== Print ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| Business Cards
|
|
|-
| Pamphlets & Flyers
|
|
|-
| CD Covers and Labels
|
|
|-
| Banners
|
|
|-
| Letterheads
|
|
|}

== Special Groups & Events ==

{| class="wikitable" border="1"
|-
! Name
! Status
! Resources
|-
| OpenOffice.org Conference Logo
|
|
|-
| Native Language Confederation Logo
|
|
|}
[[Category:Branding]]

Press release 2.0.3

2010-03-18T02:06:03Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

[[Category:Draft marketing ideas and materials]]

[[Draft marketing documents index]]

== Raw Materials for the PR ==

''This section is '''not''' part of the Press release - just links to reference materials for the benefit of people working on this draft
''
* Release notes: http://development.openoffice.org/releases/2.0.3rc7.html
* Detailed new features: http://fr.openoffice.org/files/documents/67/3279/203_newfeatures_05_29.odt
* Summary key new features: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Marketing-PR-OOo2.0.3

== Press Release - for immediate release ==

OpenOffice.org 2.0.3 is now ready for download, three months since the release of 2.0.2. This latest release contains a mixture of new features, bug fixes, and security patches, and demonstrates the OpenOffice.org Community's determination to maintain its position as the world's leading open-source office productivity suite.

The security patches fix security vulnerabilities that have been found
in internal security audits. Although there are currently no known
exploits, we urge all users of 2.x to upgrade to the new version or
install their vendor's patches accordingly. Patches for users of
OpenOffice.org 1.1.5 will be available shortly. For details of the
security issues fixed, see Security Bulletin 2006-06-29 (http://www.openoffice.org/security/bulletin-20060629.html).

Key features of the new release:

* performance improvements: for example, a 23 percent improvement in certain Calc benchmarks
* further improvements to file format compatibility with Microsoft Office files
* new email integration features for users wanting to send emails in Microsoft file formats
* more control over how exported PDF documents will display when opened in a PDF reader
* support for more languages and improvements in hyphenation and thesaurus
* support for Intel architecture for Mac OS X plus improved Mac OS X System integration
* built-in check for updated versions

OpenOffice.org is also the first office suite to support the ISO approved OpenDocument Format as its native file format. The standard - ISO/IEC 26300 - defines how office documents (spreadsheets, wordprocessor documents, etc.) must be stored so that they can be exchanged with any compliant software package. Its adoption represents an historic "Freedom of Information" breakthrough for the IT industry.

Download OpenOffice.org 2.0.3 now from our volunteer servers. If you find the pages too busy, try using our legal peer-to-peer (P2P) system. If you do not have a suitable internet connection, consider buying a CD-ROM from an OpenOffice.org Community Distributor.

Not all languages may be ready, so check with your favourite Native Language project (http://projects.openoffice.org/native-lang.html)

------------------------

=== About OpenOffice.org ===

The OpenOffice.org Community is an international team of volunteer and
sponsored contributors who develop, support, and promote the leading
open-source office productivity suite, OpenOffice.org®.

OpenOffice.org supports the Open Document Format for Office
Applications (OpenDocument) OASIS Standard (ISO/IEC 26300) as well
as legacy industry file formats and is available on major computing
platforms in over 70 languages. OpenOffice.org is provided under the GNU
Lesser General Public Licence (LGPL) and may be used free of charge for
any purpose, private or commercial.

The OpenOffice.org Community acknowledges generous sponsorship from a
number of companies, including Sun Microsystems, the founding
sponsor and primary contributor.

==== Links ====

The OpenOffice.org Community can be found at http://www.openoffice.org

To learn more of the project, see http://about.openoffice.org/

OpenOffice.org 2.0.3 may be downloaded free of charge from http://download.openoffice.org

Further information about the suite may be found at http://www.openoffice.org/product

==== Press Contacts ====

Louis Suarez-Potts (UTC -04h00) 
OpenOffice.org Community Manager 
louis@openoffice.org 
+1 (416) 625 3843 

John McCreesh (UTC +01h00) 
OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Lead 
jpmcc@openoffice.org 
+44 (0)7 810 278 540

Cristian Driga (UTC +0200) 
OpenOffice.org Marketing Project Co-Lead 
cdriga@openoffice.org 
+40 7887 000 60 

==== Worldwide Marketing Contacts ====

http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

Press release 2.2 alternate

2010-03-18T02:05:27Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Marketing}}
''Please see [[Press_release_2.2]] ''

Performance Project Action List

2010-03-18T02:04:16Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
= Action List from RedOffice team =

{| class="prettytable"
| Action
| Describe
| Member
| State
| CWS(planned)
| Link

|-
| Configmgr Refactor
| Merge configuration data layers into one file, reduce data files and merging operations at runtime, clear hotspots.
| [mailto:yuguoqiang@redoffice.com yugq]

[mailto:zengliangjun@redoffice.com zengliangjun]

| Coding almost finished
| configtune01
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Configmgr_Refactoring http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Configmgr_Refactoring]

|-
| Merge UNO Dlls
| Merge dlls which only provide UNO services and export only few same functions, to reduce I/O when loading dlls at startup.
| [mailto:yuguoqiang@redoffice.com yugq]

[mailto:zengliangjun@redoffice.com zengliangjun]
| Done experiment
| mergeUNOdlls
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Merge_UNO_Dlls http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Merge_UNO_Dlls]

|-
| Save ODF
| Save ODF file incremental to save save time.
| [mailto:liheng@redoffice.com liheng]

[mailto:yuguoqiang@redoffice.com yugq]

[mailto:zengliangjun@redoffice.com zengliangjun]
| To do
| perfsaveodf
|

|-
| Performance Benchmark Tool Set
| The tool set benchmark all performance concerned aspects of different OOo versions, log the time consume and give a nice readable result report at internet explorer.
| [mailto:liheng@redoffice.com liheng]
| Finished
| perfbm
| [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Performance_Benchmark_Tool_Set http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Performance_Benchmark_Tool_Set]

|}

Performance/Meetings/2009 05

2010-03-18T02:04:05Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2009/05/22==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2009/05/22 
Time: 15:58– 17:02 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(4:01:40 PM) odf-mib: Hi. 
(4:01:50 PM) xiuzhi: hi all 
(4:02:17 PM) odf-mib: Seems we are only a few project members today. Yesterday was a public holiday in Germany, so many from the Hamburg team are in vacation today. 
(4:02:18 PM) liheng: Hi,all 
(4:03:58 PM) liangjun: Hi,all 
(4:04:06 PM) xiuzhi: odf-mib: really?I like vacation. :) next Friday is public holiday in China 
(4:04:19 PM) liheng: odf-mib: Thanks, and next week is holiday in china ,the Dragon Boat Festival 
(4:04:33 PM) Matthias: Hi all, sorry for being late 
(4:04:50 PM) xiuzhi: mhu: hi. not too late 
(4:05:05 PM) Matthias: xiuzhi: moin :-) 
(4:05:18 PM) odf-mib: mhu: Most people from Hamburg seem to have vacation 
(4:05:25 PM) liheng: Hi, Matthias:) 
(4:05:27 PM) Matthias: so, I have not missed much, so far ? 
(4:05:39 PM) Matthias: Hi Li Heng 
(4:05:44 PM) odf-mib: mhu: We haven't started yet. 
(4:05:58 PM) liheng: Matthias: No we are talking about holidays 
(4:06:07 PM) liheng: next week is holiday in china ,the Dragon Boat Festival 
(4:06:10 PM) Matthias: aha, that is a good topic 
(4:06:49 PM) liheng: Let's update status of our works. 
(4:06:59 PM) Matthias: ...and as we are at it, I will be away (on vacation) for the next 4 weeks (starting next wednesday) 
(4:09:05 PM) liheng: 4 weeks, so long, and wish you have a very nice vacation! 
(4:09:08 PM) Matthias: status: mostly debugging (with MAV) my osl/unx/file buffered I/O implementation (found hopefully last issue when building OOo from scratch) 
(4:09:57 PM) Matthias: it is actually 3 weeks of journey plus a couple days before and after, thanks for the wishes 
(4:10:58 PM) Matthias: I will be back for our meeting Friday June 26 
(4:11:52 PM) mba: As Carsten, Oliver and Bj rn are on vacation today, let me give a short report of their work in the last week. 
(4:12:29 PM) mba: Carsten is working together with Ingo Schmidt to make our setup on Windows able to support both rebased and non-rebased libraries 
(4:13:01 PM) liheng: My Status:I collected the test cases and documents and make them systematical for Benchmark-System and deployed the OOo3.0 and OOo3.1 on the server, but I can't run them automatically in Java serivce ... 
(4:13:36 PM) liangjun: status: refactor configmgr :) 
(4:13:49 PM) mba: Oliver has done a first prototype for asynchronous saving in the background (working on a copy of the document created in memory). It worked surprisingly well, but it's not done yet, just a prototype as it does not care for threading problems. We will evaluate it further. 
(4:14:23 PM) mba: Bj枚rn Michaelsen is still trying to squeeze out some CPU cycles in the SfxItemSet implementation 
(4:14:59 PM) sb: ...and I am still busy with the new configmgr (and will be, for the foreseeable future...) 
(4:16:24 PM) liheng: next week, I will do all benchmark test manually on Benchmark-System and get comparable raw data for showing the functions on Benchmark-System. 
(4:17:15 PM) mba: I'm working on another performance optimization, not related to speed but to energy saving: I'm trying to get rid of the background processing in SFX to get the status of commands that can't be or are not invalidated correctly and so have to be polled with a 200ms timer (so called "volatile" slots/command). It's nearly finished now and waits for a missing implementation in the system layer... 
(4:17:17 PM) mba: ...(notification for clipboard content changes). 
(4:17:58 PM) zhangyuwei: my status: I'm fixing bugs about asynchronous load, and now take much less time all loading process. 
(4:18:28 PM) Matthias: mba: system layer means VCL here, right ? 
(4:19:15 PM) mba: That's up to Philipp to decide. Currently the clipboard notification is implemented on Windows only and it uses a UNO service. The implementation IIRC is outside of VCL 
(4:20:15 PM) ***Matthias is always confused when someone uses "system layer" and is not talking about "sal/osl/rtl" 
(4:22:17 PM) Matthias: sorry for interrupting, please go ahead ... 
(4:25:24 PM) tora-jap`: javaldx - Can we prevent javaldx at the initial startup right after installation of OOo is finised? 
(4:25:24 PM) tora-jap`: A user installs OOo into his/her PC. 
(4:25:24 PM) tora-jap`: The user starts OOo. 
(4:25:24 PM) tora-jap`: OOo first starts javaldx and it silently looks for JRE here and there. 
(4:25:27 PM) tora-jap`: A user notices that a harddisk is making noises, but no information appears on the display. 
(4:25:30 PM) tora-jap`: Eventutally, maybe several seconds later, the Welcome dialog appears to serve the user. 
(4:27:36 PM) sb: tora: If OOo shall be able to instantiate JVMs in process, javaldx is needed (because LD_LIBRARY_PATH needs to be set, which is only read during exec and not again later on). 
(4:28:20 PM) tora-jap`: Right. But is it needed to show Welcome dialog? 
(4:29:23 PM) sb: The maintainer of javaldx is Joachim Lingner (not on this chat). Maybe we can discuss potential improvements on dev@udk.ooo or just dev@ooo mailing lists, so that Joachim can join in. 
(4:29:45 PM) tora-jap`: I see. 
(4:30:26 PM) tora-jap`: issue 88162 "Removing blank lines from a .xcu file to reduce its size" 
(4:30:27 PM) tora-jap`: Does anyone have insterests on this issue? 
(4:30:27 PM) tora-jap`: It is about configuration files. 
(4:30:28 PM) sb: "is it needed to show Welcome dialog?": If Welcome dialog is shown from soffice.bin: yes, indirectly. 
(4:31:38 PM) sb: tora: .xcu file size: I never found time to look at it (and improve my rudimentary xslt knowledge). If you want to do something, go ahead! 
(4:34:05 PM) liheng: tora-jap:A people in RedFlag is just making some tools for rebuild all configure files including .xcu 
(4:34:56 PM) tora-jap`: For Welcome dialog, regardless of with_JRE or whitout_JRE, the welcome dialog window appears. So I thought JRE is not required to show welcome dialog window. Anyway, its further discussion will be on the ml 'sb' suggests. 
(4:35:55 PM) tora-jap`: liheng: Sounds nice! 
(4:38:04 PM) sb: tora, re .xcu size: Also, depending on how I will move forward with my new configmgr (which I do not yet know), the .xcu files in the shared layer might or might not be replaced with some other representation, so that improvements on the .xcu file size might be mood in the long run. Just to let you know... 
(4:38:06 PM) Matthias: liheng: do we somehow coordinate who does what on configmgr / xcu files / ... 
(4:38:09 PM) liheng: sb:For UX performance, to show Welcome dialog maybe really not with JRE 
(4:38:50 PM) sb: liheng: Sure, that would mean moving Welcome dialog from big soffice.bin to some earlier process. 
(4:39:42 PM) sb: mhu: I never heard back from any other groups trying to improve configmgr, so decided to start work on it myself. 
(4:40:38 PM) liheng: sb:liangjun has been working on it for one year. 
(4:40:40 PM) Matthias: oh yes, I know; it is just that liheng , his team and I discussed somethings before this team got so large 
(4:41:35 PM) Matthias: ...and of course, everyone should coordinate with sb (he maintains configmgr when all else fails) 
(4:42:07 PM) xiuzhi left the room (quit: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 
(4:43:00 PM) liangjun: liheng: sb: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Configmgr_Refactoring 
(4:43:06 PM) tora-jap`: sb: For the issue, it is not about the amount of information. It is about how to remove does-not-match-localized-text. Original source and localized.sdf will be combined at compilation and be applied the XSLT. Unwanted tranlations are currently left as a blank line. The unwated one could be simply disregard. 
(4:43:18 PM) liangjun: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Configmgr_Refactoring/Design 
(4:44:36 PM) sb: re configmgr: liangjun, I know that wiki page, but did not see any progress (and no working code for a long time). I will put my own ideas into the wiki soon, so we can see how to continue. 
(4:46:34 PM) sb: tora: not "amount of information," but "amount of redundant whitespace," right? 
(4:46:53 PM) liheng: sb:Thanks, and we are still working no it,but we start that work based on a earlier RedOffice version and we must transform some work to openoffice.org 3.x 
(4:47:24 PM) liheng: Sorry we are still working on it :) 
(4:47:36 PM) tora-jap`: sb: Exactly! :-) 
(4:49:12 PM) sb: liheng: I see. It is hard for me to think about improvements in the configmgr area without actually trying them out, and it is extremely hard for me to try out anything with the existing configmgr code base. Hence, I got dragged into redoing the code base alongside producing ideas for improvement. 
(4:49:28 PM) liangjun: sb: :), yes We are send source code on svn://svn@svn.services.openoffice.org/ooo/cws/configtune00 . but it's not final. 
(4:51:32 PM) sb: liangjun: OK, will look at it. 
(4:52:01 PM) liheng: sb:We will discuss all ideas about configmgr again, via email :) 
(4:52:48 PM) sb: liheng: Stick to the dev@performance.ooo mailing list, please. 
(4:53:10 PM) tora-jap`: sb: With current implementation at the level of file I/O, every such as get-the-next-line() triggers a read() system call. It is too costly. So removing redundant whitespace will reduce the number of system calls. 
(4:53:10 PM) tora-jap`: Meanwhile, for redundent system calls around get-the-next-line(), 'mhu' has been working on. 
(4:53:10 PM) liangjun: sb::) Thanks. 
(4:54:09 PM) liheng: tora-jap:If you have some suggestion for tools of config, please send your requirments to dev@perfomance.openoffice.org 
(4:54:48 PM) Matthias: indeed, for line based IO the new impl of osl_readLine (then buffered) should help reduce IO system calls drastically 
(4:54:56 PM) liheng: sb: Yes, of course 
(4:59:35 PM) ***Matthias will probably not finish 'buffered I/O' in the next few days, and will be back only Fri, June 26; 'buffered I/O' will need to wait until then 
(4:59:42 PM) tora-jap`: liheng: Well, I am trying for it. Requirements for configuration manager is not so simple. Even a user changes a location of a window, information of the window will be stored to the configurtion data. Data of configuraion might be kept in LDAP, file server over the network, local disk, local removal device, ... 
(5:02:01 PM) liheng: Okay,time up,have nice weekend 
(5:02:17 PM) tora-jap`: Cheers! 
(5:02:31 PM) Matthias: okay, bye; have a nice weekend everyone 
(5:02:43 PM) liheng: Bye,all ! 
(5:02:49 PM) odf-mib: Have a nice weekend! Bye! 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]] 

==Performance/Meetings/2009/05/15==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2009/05/15 
Time: 16:00– 17:26 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(4:00:25 PM) arwe: Hi everyone ☺ 
(4:00:41 PM) yugq: hi all 
(4:01:07 PM) Matthias: hi 
(4:02:07 PM) cd_oo: Hi all 
(4:02:27 PM) liheng: Hi,all! 
(4:04:01 PM) liheng: Let's update our status! :) 
(4:06:16 PM) sb: my status: working on configmgr redesign/reimplementation, mainly to improve performance (by touching way fewer files during startup), but also to finally address some other shortcomings 
(4:06:40 PM) Malte: Sounds good! :) 
(4:08:39 PM) ***Matthias continues with buffered file I/O; unix implementation ready for developer review (currently MAV is looking into it); starting with windows implementation. 
(4:09:11 PM) liheng: My status:I just finished all works to transform Benchmark-System to Glassfish/MySQL and clear commercial code, but I can't complete manual and commit all helper code into my CWS. 
(4:09:11 PM) os_ooo: Hi, 
(4:09:12 PM) os_ooo: the cws os128 that contains the fixes related to SfxItemPropertySets, frame access in Writer and some others in Writer is on it's way to QA now. 
(4:09:14 PM) os_ooo: Next areas are asynchronous storing in AutoSave and changes in the implementation of SfxItemSet where Bjoern Michaelsen is currently working on. 
(4:10:03 PM) odf-mib: I have updated the rtllog2odf tool 
(4:10:19 PM) Matthias: liheng: you cant commit into your CWS? 
(4:11:19 PM) liheng: Matthias: :), I need more time to do that. 
(4:11:30 PM) Matthias: liheng: oh, I see :-) 
(4:13:28 PM) liheng: I changed the record format in help code,at last week, because I find my new analyzer need more information. ;) 
(4:13:30 PM) arwe: I have now added the DrawingLayer ModelLocking performance improvement to CWS aw065; no more expensive BoundRect calculations when there is not yet a view. 
(4:14:07 PM) arwe: Also looking with IHA for some superfluous chart actions with Drawingayer 
(4:15:04 PM) arwe: Also tinking about a 'Meta-Object' for chart, e.g. 5000 data points currently create 5000 SdrObjects, change to one MetaObject with 5000 transformations... 
(4:15:52 PM) liheng: Matthias:If you done your works,which improvments will be found in general Hotspots (like, startup, load ,save) ? 
(4:17:03 PM) Matthias: liheng: I expect improvement for all: startup (mainly cold), load and save 
(4:17:31 PM) Matthias: ...but of course, when there is a build to test, we will see more
(4:17:57 PM) Matthias: ...details 
(4:19:08 PM) cd_oo: My status: I am currently working with the setup team on non-rebased libraries and how to get it into installation sets without breaking anything. Especially to not break Windows patching is difficult as we can have two possible installations (rebased/non-rebased) but just one patch. 
(4:20:43 PM) liheng: Ok,as I see, I think I can use your CWS to test our Benchmark-System, because it may improve all number of Hotspot and user experience index 
(4:22:31 PM) Matthias: liheng: okay, no problem; just give me some time to commit all changes to the repository (it will be in cws mhu20). 
(4:24:01 PM) liheng: If that CWS is ready for QA please tell me, I will checkout and create a report 
(4:25:42 PM) Matthias: yes, sure 
(4:27:27 PM) liheng: It seems that we have no more topic today, break up? 
(4:29:06 PM) liheng: Hi,enoki_ 
(4:30:36 PM) Matthias: liheng: I think, the status round table has finished; and I dont have more for today; maybe others ? 
(4:31:45 PM) liheng: Yes,I think so.:) 
(4:33:18 PM) Matthias: any comments from our japanese / goodday attendees ? 
(4:35:22 PM) makoto_goodday: no thing thanks 
(4:35:46 PM) Matthias: you're welcome, greetings to tora 
(4:37:58 PM) liheng: Matthias: I think no more topic today :) 
(4:38:10 PM) ***Matthias now needs to leave; have a nice weekend everyone ... 
(4:38:21 PM) Matthias: liheng: yes, I think so too :-) 
(4:38:51 PM) Matthias: bye all ... 
(4:39:32 PM) liheng: That all ;) 
(4:40:03 PM) makoto_goodday left the room. 
(4:40:10 PM) cd_oo: Bye and have a nice weekend. 
(4:40:35 PM) liheng: bye all 
(4:42:34 PM) odf-mib: Bye all 
(4:42:38 PM) xiuzhi: bye 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Tools/VerySleepy

2010-03-18T02:03:58Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
Description about VerySleepy usage and how to work with

Performance Meetings templet

2010-03-18T02:03:45Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2009/07/17==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2009/07/17 
Time: 16:27– 17:39 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

User:Ivanm

2010-03-17T23:25:27Z

Ivanm:

[[Category:User Experience]]
[[Category:User Experience Community]]
[[Category:Art]]
== Introduction ==
Hello everyone,

My name is Ivan, and I am (or try to be) an active member of the OpenOffice.org [[Art]] and [[Website]] projects. The biggest contribution I have made to OOo so far has been as the lead designer of the OOo website during the 2007-2008 redesign and the Project Renaissance logo, and I hope to do much more in the future as my skill set increases.

A little bit about me: I'm 21, live in New Zealand and am in my final year of a BA/BSc conjoint majoring in Computer Science, Psychology, Sociology and English.

== Current Tasks ==

* Helping with the creation of a new [[Design_Artwork_and_Branding_Project_Proposal|branding project]] to ensure a common visual identity for OOo
* Moving the OOo website to Kenai infrastructure

== Mailing Lists ==

=== Regularly ===
* Art
* Branding
* Website

=== Less Frequently ===
* User Experience (UX)
* Native Language
* Marketing

== Completed Tasks ==
* [[Art/Visual_Concept_Proposals|Submitting a design for new OOo Logo proposals]]
* [[Art/Gallery/Renaissance_Logo|Submitting designs for Project Renaissance Logo]] (December 2008 - January 2009)
* Wiki Refresh (June 2008; Progressive changes November 2008 - January 2009)
* [[Website/What's_New/2008_Refresh|Website Refresh]] (November - December 2008)
* [[Art/Splash_Screen/Proposals|Submitting designs for OOo 3 Splash Screen contest]] (February 2007; June-July 2008)
* Website Redesign (March 2008)

== Scratchpad ==
=== UX Ideas ===
* [http://humanized.com/weblog/2006/09/11/monolog_boxes_and_transparent_messages/ Transparent Messages]
* Make greater use of inline boxes rather than modal dialogs (e.g. spell checking)
* [[User_Experience/StartCenter|dashboard]]

=== Visual Design Ideas ===
* New fontwork (OOo's equivalent of WordArt)
* Implement an attractive design for Help pages to improve readability - ask about the rendering engine behind the help pages (HTML?) and its capacities (if there is an HTML engine, it could be used to power the dashboard)
* Enable transparency on the splash screen
* Application background (something less dreary) as [http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=3760 Johannes Eva has noted]
* Visual Design i-Team to represent branding/identity
* Improve the Galaxy print icon
* Clip art gallery and online download functionality
* Visual identity/design blog to inform people of what's going on in the project (both inside OOo and outside it)

== Icon Set Optimisations ==

OpenOffice.org comes with 6 different icon sets. Do we really need so many icon sets (many of which are outdated)? We could reduce the size of the OpenOffice.org installer considerably (my estimate is 5-10%) by making some changes to the way the icon sets are stored. This will also save bandwidth costs. Which ones do we get rid of? And can we make the remaining icon sets take up even less space? The answers to these questions requires a discussion.

Firstly, let's look at the icon sets that OpenOffice.org ships with. You can find them in /Basis/share/config/ - each theme is stored in its own zip file. You can change the icon set in OpenOffice.org by clicking Tools -> Options -> View -> Icon Size and Style.

{|- class="wikitable" border="1"
! Name
! Size (zip)
! Location in Source
|-
| Default (Galaxy)
| 5,484,155 bytes
| /default_images
|-
| High Contrast
| 3,853,422 bytes
| ???
|-
| Tango
| 4,868,332 bytes
| /ooo_custom_images/tango
|-
| Crystal
| 5,319,979 bytes
| /external_images
|-
| Industrial
| 4,835,108 bytes
| /ooo_custom_images/industrial
|-
| Classic
| 3,426,189 bytes
| /ooo_custom_images/classic
|}

As far as I can see, there are 4 main optimizations that can be made, each of which is a discussion in itself...

=== 1. Getting rid of unnecessary icon sets ===

Two candidates for instant removal would be Classic and Industrial. Tango and Crystal are (were?) used for GNOME and KDE environments respectively, although Galaxy should be the default for both. Do we keep these too?

The matter isn't as simple as deleting the zip files: the icon sets' names are hard coded into OpenOffice.org in /vcl/source/app/settings.cxx
We could just ask for the unnecessary icon sets to be removed, but it would be nice if this could be dynamic rather than static. One additional option might be to have icon themes as extensions.

=== 2. PNGOUT ===

The vast majority of icons in each set are PNG files so we can optimize them with PNGOUT, which gets rid of unnecessary data contained inside each PNG file. The savings across thousands of files are quite impressive:

==== Galaxy Icon Set (When Uncompressed) ====

Original Size: 4,629,012 bytes

After PNGOUT: 3,638,521 bytes (78.6% of original size)

=== 3. Remove Duplicates Within Icon Sets ===

One of the most obvious instances of duplication is the high contrast icons: they are represented in their own icon set, but they are also located in the Galaxy icon set. If we got rid of the High Contrast icons in the Galaxy icon set (which appear to be exactly the same as those in the High Contrast icon set), we could save some space.

A more tricky example is the duplication of icons due to the way they are stored. The same image may appear multiple times in a single icon set. For example:
sx03125.png
sx03137.png
sx03140.png
sx03152.png
sx03153.png
sx03154.png
sx03155.png
sx03158.png
sx03219.png
are all copies of the same icon.

There is also an inconsistency in the naming of icon files: some make little sense (like above), while others have better naming (e.g., image.png). The gains might not be worth the amout of time needed to make this work though.

=== 4. Improve Compression ===

Each icon set consists of several thousand files which are stored in a single .zip file. This is done for a very good reason: if all these files were extracted, there would be a huge overhead from all the file system data keeping track of each file. We can increase the compression of the icon sets without adversely affecting memory. According to 7Zip, the difference between 'Store' and 'Ultra' compression settings is less than 1MB of memory needed for decompressing. I have tested both settings and OpenOffice.org opens them fine. This can save an extra 100-200 KB per icon set. The question is, is it worth it?

Performance/Meetings/2008 01

2010-03-17T23:13:55Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/01/31==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/01/31 
Time: 15:43– 17:29 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(15:54:39) kuangliang: hello guys 
(16:04:13) kuangliang: it's time to start! 
(16:09:22) LiHeng: where is liangjun? 
(16:09:44) yugq: just a minute 
(16:10:01) liangjun: hello 
(16:11:44) LiHeng: i just sell the alarm clock for you , later !!:( 
(16:12:22) LiHeng: are you ready for this meeting? 
(16:12:30) yugq: i'm sorry. i'll remember this from now on. 
(16:13:44) LiHeng: please check agenda in mailbox 
(16:14:16) yugq: maybe i can say more later when i did do many things. but now, i have little to say. 
(16:14:42) yugq: :-( 
(16:16:31) LiHeng: ok,i direct meeting this time 
(16:16:54) LiHeng: please, talk about you idea 
(16:19:02) LiHeng: i want to create independent CWS for performance project , do you think it's a right idea 
(16:19:25) yugq: i think it's nessisary. 
(16:19:31) LiHeng: why? 
(16:19:46) LiHeng: in your points 
(16:20:29) liangjun: :) 
(16:20:58) yugq: because when you do some optimizations on OO, you are not sure the statable of OO. 
(16:21:55) yugq: we need provide thease performance versions to test stuff and let them do some test. 
(16:22:29) yugq: then we can put this optimization wins to release versions. 
(16:23:02) LiHeng: ok,please show these words in meeting soon 
(16:23:27) yugq: ok 
(16:26:14) yugq: and another reason is: performance versions is not synchronous with OO developing version. 
(16:29:06) yugq: we can not put optimize achievements to new version immediately. so we need performance version to record our achievements. 
(16:34:42) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being late 
(16:34:42) LiHeng: hello, mhu! 
(16:35:08) yugq: hi all 
(16:35:22) liangjun: hello :-D 
(16:35:41) LiHeng: mhu:xiuzhi can't attend this meeting , 
(16:36:02) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I've seen his email 
(16:36:28) LiHeng: mhu: do you have some tipoc for this time? 
(16:37:09) mhu: no nothing more than you have in your agenda 
(16:37:47) LiHeng: ok , we are beginning :)1.Independent CWS for performance project on OO3.0 and subsequent versions. 
(16:38:23) LiHeng: mhu: we want to create Independent CWS for performance project on every version 
(16:39:15) mhu: yes, no problem at all. you can create as many cws'ses as you like, for what purpose you like 
(16:39:44) mhu: and yes, creating a cws for performance improvements surely makes sens. 
(16:40:45) LiHeng: mhu: thank you, but we need combine some effectual change to major version, 
(16:41:37) mhu: LiHeng: can you explain the "but" ? 
(16:42:52) LiHeng: LiHeng: i can't be sure the time to check out dev-version for the CWS 
(16:43:11) LiHeng: mhu: i can't be sure the time to check out dev-version for the CWS 
(16:43:44) LiHeng: mhu:you know the problem of performance is dynamic 
(16:44:35) LiHeng: mhu:if we checkout early, some change would be void 
(16:44:43) mhu: I'm not yet sure, I understand where you see what problem, sorry. 
(16:46:11) mhu: ...or, are you saying that other changes might influence your improvements? 
(16:46:28) LiHeng: mhu:yes,:) i mean that we need you help for decided the time we checkout the 
(16:46:32) mhu: ...if development happens in parallel 
(16:46:48) mhu: okay, now I seem to understand 
(16:46:57) mhu: ...but... 
(16:47:53) mhu: ...I think it is unavoidable that multiple developments happen in parallel. that is the purpose of working with CWS'ses. 
(16:49:05) LiHeng: yes ,but performance maybe changed after change for function 
(16:49:14) mhu: so, there will surely be other projects targeted at 3.0 that would wish others would not always change so much (the packaging restructuring project, e.g.) 
(16:50:36) LiHeng: Is there a period that function not be changed be for release? 
(16:50:36) mhu: yes, I understand. But how can parallel changes be avoided? In fact, that's what we want: many developers working simultaneously on the code. 
(16:51:26) mhu: yes, there is a period that no changes are accepted: that is after "code freeze", and your changes also would be rejected :-) 
(16:53:23) LiHeng: mhu:so , if we have some change can improve more speed for OO, do you think we can have a period , maybe "pre-code freeze"? 
(16:53:58) mhu: I still have the idea, that our performance improvement changes can happen in parallel with other changes... 
(16:54:29) mhu: ...and I don't think that we need a period where no other change goes in. 
(16:55:06) LiHeng: ok, we try to do it so :) 
(16:56:38) mhu: if there is an area which you find critcial, we can (a) either monitor that area for other changes and / or (b) talk to the developer(s) that are reponsible for that other area to help us and avoid changes that we think are counter productive. 
(16:57:10) LiHeng: thank you! 
(16:57:23) mhu: maybe, what I think is, we work with them and not against them? 
(16:57:48) LiHeng: ok, we try first ;) 
(16:58:23) LiHeng: go next 
(16:58:33) mhu: okay. and as I said, if there's something really critical, we'll find a way. 
(16:59:11) LiHeng: Put all suggestions and issues in order, make cases for them , and public on wiki 
(16:59:41) mhu: yes, sounds like a plan :-) 
(17:01:07) mhu: do you already have details? 
(17:01:13) LiHeng: mhu:yes , when we changed wiki we find many suggestions and issues for performance, we want to put them in order, and make standart cases 
(17:01:37) mhu: ah, yes. that's good I think. 
(17:02:15) LiHeng: do you have some idea for this?:) 
(17:04:20) yugq: there are issue categories in wiki page before. i think those categories are ok. 
(17:04:40) mhu: sorry, i've just looked over the "performance" wiki page. No, I don't have an immediate idea. 
(17:04:48) yugq: we may change some if we need. 
(17:05:43) mhu: yes, the categories look generally okay. If you find something to add / change, please do so. 
(17:05:55) yugq: the most big thing is test case. 
(17:06:10) LiHeng: mhu:we can rebuild wiki first ,and I hope you can help us to check them 
(17:06:46) mhu: LiHeng: yes, of course. just point me to something, and I'll check it. 
(17:06:48) yugq: categories look good, maybe contents mess a little.:P 
(17:07:19) LiHeng: yugq:it is just our jobs 
(17:07:28) mhu: yes, there's some "mess", mostly remaining from some expermients 
(17:07:37) yugq: LiHeng, yes. 
(17:07:55) yugq: :) 
(17:08:45) LiHeng: kuangliang:are you there? 
(17:09:10) kuangliang: I am back 
(17:09:32) LiHeng: mhu:can we go to next topic ? 
(17:09:39) mhu: yes, please. 
(17:09:46) LiHeng: 3.Further discussion of OO compiling and profiling on Solaris and SunStido Perfermance Analysis. 
(17:09:56) mhu: yes... 
(17:10:15) LiHeng: kuangliang please? 
(17:10:28) mhu: I think, we've not had any repsonse to the email on compiler switches? 
(17:11:50) mhu: I think, we may try to cross-post to dev@tools.openoffice.org, where most experts read email, and the ask them to join the performance@tools.openoffice.org list for performance related questions. 
(17:12:14) LiHeng: yes, i just send a email to matle, maybe he know something about it 
(17:12:17) mhu: s/the ask them/then ask tehm/ 
(17:12:32) mhu: s/tehm/them/ 
(17:12:57) LiHeng: mhu: i will send the mail again 
(17:13:28) mhu: I was actually thinking of our Hamburg release engineers, which should be more familiar with the optimization compiler switches on all platforms 
(17:14:07) mhu: ...and those release engineers do read (and answer) dev@tools.openoffice.org 
(17:14:35) mhu: ...I think we can also convince them to read performance@tools.openoffice.org 
(17:15:19) LiHeng: mhu:okay , i try to do it 
(17:15:36) LiHeng: and you must help me:) 
(17:15:41) mhu: LiHeng: I will also talk to them, and ask. 
(17:19:50) LiHeng: ok, for SunStudio Perfermance Analysis, we will document to explanation how to using it for OO, and workout we report 
(17:20:30) mhu: okay, sounds good. Have you been able to compile on Solaris now? 
(17:21:12) LiHeng: yes , we aleady have a release vesion :) 
(17:22:01) LiHeng: and that job we may start on April, after testing OO 2.3.1 
(17:22:50) LiHeng: and 3.0 
(17:24:14) LiHeng: mhu: another topic temporary 
(17:24:29) LiHeng: We have 3Weeks holidays for Spring Festival, Feb 2nd to Feb 17 , so we have to cancel 2 time IRC. 
(17:25:19) mhu: LiHeng: sorry, someone just disturbed me at my desk here :-( 
(17:25:29) mhu: but now I'm back. 
(17:26:03) mhu: I'm fine with your solaris approach (start after 2.3.1) 
(17:26:35) LiHeng: and~:)We have 3Weeks holidays for Spring Festival, Feb 2nd to Feb 17 , so we have to cancel 2 time IRC. 
(17:26:48) mhu: yes, Peter Junge already told me, that you are all out on Holidays... 
(17:27:07) mhu: I wish you all the best, and have a good time. 
(17:27:26) LiHeng: thank a lots 
(17:27:39) liangjun: :) 
(17:27:45) LiHeng: and anybody have some words? 
(17:28:02) yugq: no 
(17:28:02) kuangliang: no 
(17:28:08) mhu: no 
(17:28:10) liangjun: no 
(17:28:24) LiHeng: mhu:okay, that's all 
(17:28:46) mhu: okay, then good bye, see you in 3 weeks. 
(17:28:56) LiHeng: see you in 3 weeks :) 
(17:29:10) mhu: bye 
(17:29:10) LiHeng: bye 
(17:29:13) liangjun: bye 
(17:29:16) kuangliang: bye 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/01/24==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/01/24 
Time: 16:25– 17:33 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:25:49) LiHen1: hi xiuzhi 
(16:25:58) xiuzhi: hi testing.... 
(16:26:09) LiHen1: it's so difficult to connect 
(16:26:18) xiuzhi: hi LiHen1, 
(16:26:43) LiHen1: i'm ok 
(16:26:47) LiHen1: ;) 
(16:26:57) xiuzhi: I am fine 
(16:27:09) LiHen1: did you receive the agenda 
(16:27:24) xiuzhi: yee 
(16:27:33) xiuzhi: it is OK for me 
(16:28:13) LiHen1: ok, Mattiaths have a little time for this ,so i reduce the agenda 
(16:28:58) xiuzhi: LiHen1:ok 
(16:29:20) xiuzhi: mhu:hi 
(16:29:29) mhu: Hi LiHeng, xiuzhi 
(16:29:43) xiuzhi: LiHen1: where are other members? 
(16:29:45) LiHen1: mhu:hi 
(16:30:59) LiHen1: network is with some trouble 
(16:31:01) mhu: I can wait a few minutes (need to have a quick look into my email first) 
(16:31:45) LiHen1: xiuzhi:our gateway have some trouble 
(16:31:47) LiHen1: :( 
(16:32:08) LiHen1: but, they will connect soon, 
(16:32:10) xiuzhi: LiHen1: it is often... 
(16:33:26) yugq: Hi 
(16:35:15) mhu: okay, back again. 
(16:35:39) liangjun: hello:) 
(16:35:49) LiHen1: only one last 
(16:36:47) LiHen1: mhu: did you receive the agenda 
(16:37:01) mhu: LiHen1: yes, looks good to me. 
(16:38:07) yugq: mhu: I sent a mail about "Change Performance Project Wiki", did you receive it? 
(16:38:47) mhu: yugq: Yes, I have seen and read it. 
(16:39:20) yugq: mhu: OK 
(16:39:36) mhu: yugq: I think it is a good plan. I'll post a comment to the mailing list. 
(16:40:16) yugq: mhu: OK. Thanks! 
(16:41:04) LiHen1: we go first, kuangliang can't connect to IRC 
(16:41:15) mhu: okay 
(16:41:39) LiHen1: 1/Progress Report of OO 2.3.1 Evaluation 
(16:42:07) LiHen1: yugq:please talk about you works? 
(16:43:34) kuangliang: sorry ,I'm late 
(16:44:22) yugq: OK. I mainly test some profile and tuning tools thease days. They are IBM Rational Purifyplus 7.0 & Intel VTune Performance Analyzer. 
(16:46:13) mhu: yes 
(16:46:15) yugq: Thease tools have good GUI to show the profile data. VTune can also provide a tool to give some optimize suggestion. 
(16:47:06) LiHen1: mhu:we will make some analysis reports based on those datas generated by tools, 
(16:47:37) yugq: And thease tools seem working fine, easy to use and analyze the data. 
(16:47:43) LiHen1: mhu: do you think we will public all analysis on wiki? 
(16:49:02) mhu: I think we can publish as much of the analysis as you see fit. It is the best way for others (and ourselfs) to follow the work done. 
(16:50:11) yugq: The main problem is that the tool itself will influence the OO startup and other operation and how much influence is hard to know. 
(16:50:45) mhu: If some results can only be obtained by using confidential documents (e.g.) then we can say so and publish incomplete data. 
(16:51:21) mhu: yugq: I see. 
(16:51:45) LiHen1: mhu:thanks,i see, then we will send all reports to you and Matle with e-mail 
(16:51:49) yugq: Another problem is thease tools are commercial. 
(16:52:13) yugq: They are not free. And I used just trial version. 
(16:53:02) mhu: yugq: yes, on windows that is simply so. No idea how to change that. But others also ca use the trial versions. 
(16:53:02) xiuzhi: yugh: that would be an issue IMHO 
(16:53:43) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(16:54:03) mhu: Maybe we can also learn from tools on Linux (valgrind et al) and Solaris (dtrace) which are freely available. 
(16:54:39) yugq: mhu: we will also use some tools in Linux and other platforms such as valgrind. 
(16:55:14) mhu: yugq: okay. 
(16:55:25) yugq: I tried valgrind on Linux, it worked well. 
(16:55:42) LiHen1: mhu:yes, we already to study some tools on Linux , so all performance reports will based on Linux version of OO 
(16:56:09) kuangliang: I compiled OOo2.3.1 with -O2 optimize compiling on windows and I found this will improve cool startup speed. 
(16:56:30) yugq: By the way, the two tools I said before have Linux version either. 
(16:56:46) kuangliang: But I don't know ,why OOo don't use this? 
(16:56:50) LiHen1: kuangliang:wait a moment 
(16:56:58) kuangliang: OK 
(16:57:48) LiHen1: yugq:do you have more topics? 
(16:57:54) mhu: yugq: yes, I've heard of Intels VTune for Linux, but never used it myself 
(16:58:18) LiHen1: mhu:okay, we will try it soon :) 
(16:58:38) mhu: LiHen1: okay :-) 
(16:58:46) yugq: mhu: yes. It also has GUI like it works on Windows. 
(16:59:21) yugq: So I won't talk about detail in the tools now. 
(16:59:52) yugq: Another topic is about the Change of Wiki. 
(17:00:21) LiHen1: yugq:wiki it's next , kuangliang have some words 
(17:00:22) LiHen1: :) 
(17:00:29) yugq: OK. 
(17:00:33) LiHen1: kuangliang:your turn;) 
(17:00:37) yugq: :P 
(17:00:42) kuangliang: ok 
(17:01:04) kuangliang: I compiled OOo2.3.1 with -O2 optimize compiling and I found this will improve cool startup speed. 
(17:01:28) kuangliang: But I don't know, why OOo doesn't use this? 
(17:01:51) kuangliang: At most on windows? 
(17:01:58) mhu: kuangliang: okay, interesting... 
(17:02:28) LiHen1: mhu:do you think will try this method on 3.0? 
(17:02:40) mhu: ...it is some time ago, that I looked into windows compiler optimization. 
(17:03:52) mhu: ...I think, the current optimization is -Oxs, yes? (optimize as much as possible = x, but favor size = s) 
(17:04:45) mhu: ...I think it depends on the actual compiler version, which optimization is best (speed vs size) 
(17:04:55) yugq: -Od I think. 
(17:05:07) mhu: ... and needs to be verified with each each new compiler version. 
(17:05:47) kuangliang: IMHO,it is Ob1 in OOo2.3.1 
(17:06:06) mhu: yugq: that should be CFLAGSNOOPT 
(17:06:57) kuangliang: CFLAGS +=-Ob1 in OOo2.3.1 
(17:07:40) kuangliang: sorry CFLAGS+= -Ob1 
(17:07:52) LiHen1: kuangliang:can you put list of your compile-options and result into mailinglist , and that all people can check it 
(17:08:23) kuangliang: OK 
(17:08:29) mhu: yes, that would be good. 
(17:09:49) yugq: mhu: yes. -Ob1 
(17:10:04) LiHen1: kuangliang:How about your compiling and testing on Solaris? 
(17:10:21) kuangliang: Now I'm compiling OOo2.3.1 on OpenSolaris,I hope to analysis OOo2.3.1 by SunStido Perfermance Analysis 
(17:10:47) mhu: kuangliang: oh, that is good. 
(17:12:13) kuangliang: But I have some matter,Could Anybody help me? 
(17:12:53) mhu: yes? 
(17:12:55) LiHen1: mhu:Do Matle know something about it? 
(17:13:14) mhu: LiHen1: about what? 
(17:14:02) kuangliang: mhu,I finished compiled use dmake debug=true,and setup ,but I can't run it! 
(17:14:37) mhu: kuangliang: you have compiled everything with debug=true ? 
(17:14:56) LiHen1: maybe yes;) 
(17:15:00) kuangliang: No,I run dmake debug=true in src root 
(17:15:21) mhu: this will probably need more than 4GB of memory (too much for a 32bit process) 
(17:16:06) LiHen1: mhu:thank ,maybe i know how to deal it:) 
(17:16:40) kuangliang: I finished compiled it in a long time ,and setup it,:),but OOo2.3.1 can't run:( 
(17:17:11) mhu: have you had a look at e.g. the writer library (libsw680...so)? it is probably larger 500MB already, then all the other libs... 
(17:18:58) LiHen1: kuangliang:you can run OO under consle, and copy the output information to me, we think i can deal it 
(17:19:38) mhu: OOo cannot be completely compiled with debug, it does not fit into memory. 
(17:19:38) kuangliang: LiHen1:OK 
(17:19:48) LiHen1: kuangliang:also you can compile a release version first 
(17:20:36) kuangliang: mhu:Did you mean I can't use debug=true in OpenSolaris? 
(17:20:41) LiHen1: mhu:i see, and that we will focus on a part of modules 
(17:21:14) mhu: there is something that we call a "non product" version (as opposed to the release or "product" version). it omits the "product=full" argument from the dmake command line. 
(17:21:45) mhu: kuangliang: debug=t can be used, but not for all libraries at the same time. 
(17:22:20) kuangliang: mhu:thank you 
(17:22:58) mhu: ...the "non product" version builds with symbols, but w/o full debug info. 
(17:23:25) LiHen1: mhu:thanks, 
(17:23:32) mhu: ...please ask Martin Hollmichel how to build such a "non product" version for OOo 
(17:23:43) mhu: okay, you're welcome. 
(17:23:55) LiHen1: we go to next topic 
(17:24:24) LiHen1: mhu:do you think we can remove and rebuild wiki page right? 
(17:24:28) yugq: mhu: we need your suggestion about the Change of Wiki. 
(17:25:46) mhu: if anything looks somehow important, just move it somewhere safe. Otherwise feel free to change what you want. I think those pages are not maintained. 
(17:26:29) mhu: ...some of the info on those pages might have historic value (documenting what has been done in the past). 
(17:27:21) mhu: yugq: I think your email already contained a good plan how to handle those pages. 
(17:27:47) yugq: mhu: ;-) 
(17:28:17) yugq: mhu: Thanks for the suggestion. 
(17:28:49) LiHen1: okay ,we will discuss all CAT in mailinglist, .... 
(17:28:58) mhu: yugq: no problem, you are doing most of the work (I'm only suggesting) 
(17:29:38) yugq: aha 
(17:30:03) yugq: LiHeng: I finished my topic. 
(17:30:09) LiHen1: mhu:if you have some suggestions ,please reply us whatever you mind 
(17:30:25) mhu: LiHen1: yes, will do. 
(17:30:51) LiHen1: okay, that all for me 
(17:31:07) mhu: okay, then we are finished for today? 
(17:31:41) LiHen1: yes, ;) , it's on time today 
(17:31:59) mhu: okay, then see you on the mailing list, or next Thursday on IRC. 
(17:32:08) LiHen1: bye 
(17:32:14) kuangliang: bye 
(17:32:14) mhu: bye all 
(17:32:16) yugq: bye everyone. 
(17:32:34) liangjun: :) bye 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2007 11

2010-03-17T23:13:46Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2007/11/29==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2007/11/29 
Time: 16:13– 18:05 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:13:33) LiHeng: good afternoon 
(16:13:36) xiuzh1: hello,afternoon 
(16:14:24) LiHeng: we prepare a agenda 
(16:14:55) LiHeng: Sun team introduce what they did for performance before.What tools we needHow to start profile and how to share the profile results 
(16:14:56) xiuzh1: prepare or prepared? 
(16:15:27) LiHeng: you must select some item:) 
(16:15:44) LiHeng: Sun team introduce what they did for performance before 
(16:15:45) LiHeng: What tools we need 
(16:15:53) LiHeng: How to start profile and how to share the profile results 
(16:16:16) LiHeng: How to we analysis the problem from the enduser 
(16:16:24) LiHeng: that's all 
(16:17:16) xiuzh1: good, It would be better if you email this agenda to the guys from sun now,they can prepare something for it 
(16:17:49) LiHeng: please help us to select items 
(16:18:03) xiuzh1: ok, 
(16:20:33) LiHeng: (+o xiuzh1) 
(16:20:36) LiHeng: ? 
(16:20:39) xiuzh1: have done 
(16:20:59) LiHeng: how to change your mode? 
(16:21:24) xiuzh1: input:"/op xiuzh1" 
(16:21:33) kuangliang: ?? 
(16:21:46) xiuzh1: LiHeng:thanks 
(16:21:58) LiHeng: xiuzh1:you are welcome 
(16:22:01) LiHeng: :) 
(16:24:17) LiHeng: xiuzhi : we will recommend the 4 items to the meeting agenda today , right? 
(16:25:12) xiuzh1: LiHeng: I have sent your agenda to them, 
(16:25:38) LiHeng: xiuzh1:thank you ! 
(16:26:01) xiuzh1: LiHeng:If they have more topics, they will have a proposal 
(16:27:40) YuGuoqiang: Malte: Good morning! 
(16:27:51) xiuzh1: LiHeng: I read the "please help us to select items" as "please help us to send items",so I sent them, :-P 
(16:28:07) Malte_: Hi! :) 
(16:28:30) LiHeng: Hi Malte ! 
(16:28:51) liangjun: Hi Malte ! Good morning ! 
(16:29:16) xiuzh1: Malte_:morning 
(16:29:40) kuangliang: Malte morning! 
(16:29:43) xiuzh1: Malte_: where is Matthias H.? 
(16:30:05) Malte_: Don't know, let's wait... 
(16:31:42) xiuzh1: Malte_: and mba? 
(16:31:49) Malte_: I try to call them... 
(16:32:09) LiHeng: Malte_:thank you! 
(16:33:10) Malte_: MBA will be here soon, no idea about MHU... 
(16:34:02) LiHeng: mba:morning! 
(16:34:09) kuangliang: Hi mba 
(16:34:17) LiHeng: mhu:morning! 
(16:34:17) kuangliang: Hi Matthias Huetsch 
(16:34:18) mba: Good afternoon. :-) 
(16:34:28) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being late. 
(16:34:35) Malte_: OK, I think we simply start without MHU then... 
(16:34:38) YuGuoqiang: mba, mhu: Good morning! 
(16:34:39) xiuzh1: LiHeng: your agenda, please 
(16:34:59) LiHeng: xiuzh1:ok 
(16:35:09) mhu: Malte_: but I'm already here :-) 
(16:35:26) Malte_: Uuups ;) 
(16:35:55) LiHeng: mhu:we prepared a agenda 
(16:36:14) LiHeng: Agenda from our side: 
(16:36:21) mhu: LiHeng: agenda is good, would you like to start? 
(16:36:21) LiHeng: 1.Sun team introduce what they did for performance before 
(16:36:30) LiHeng: 2.What tools we need 
(16:36:38) LiHeng: 3.How to start profile and how to share the profile results 
(16:36:43) LiHeng: 4.How to we analysis the problem from the enduser 
(16:37:10) LiHeng: mhu:thanks, let's go! :) 
(16:37:32) xiuzh1: mhu: Do you have other topics need to discuss? 
(16:38:13) mhu: I think, the topics are fine. I would probably change the order, though. 
(16:39:11) Malte_: OK, I tell about the past... 
(16:39:13) mhu: what I mean, is that I would start with where the problem is (ask end user), then start profiling that problem. 
(16:40:08) Malte_: When we started to work on OOo2, we didn't care for performance, and suddenly realized that start-up and load/save was really slow compared to OOo1.1 
(16:40:31) Malte_: So we analyzed startup with help of profilers and our RTL_LOG feature 
(16:40:55) Malte_: Both gave us some hints about expensive operations in startup and load/save 
(16:41:19) xiuzh1: Malte_:good topic, 
(16:41:24) Malte_: Some could be eliminated (start-up) by dothing stuff on demand only 
(16:41:49) Malte_: Which means: Don't do/init things in startup when you don't need them immediately! 
(16:42:05) Malte_: So some things are done on demand, or at least "lazy" now. 
(16:42:28) Malte_: With lazy meaning, using some timer and do stuff when startup is done. 
(16:42:48) Malte_: We also figured out many expensive stuff in out XML configuration, and fixed that 
(16:43:06) Malte_: Load/Save is/was more difficult... 
(16:43:06) LiHeng: Malte_: good idea 
(16:43:28) Malte_: Our XML processing is not done in an optimal way becuase of how we use the existing office API. 
(16:43:48) Malte_: That API is good for programming OOo, but for load/save we can imagine better API 
(16:44:12) Malte_: We already have one in mind, but adapting this is a LOT of work.... 
(16:44:43) Malte_: But we where able to make improvements for load/save on other places, in the application cores 
(16:44:50) mhu: Thanks Malte, but the introduction looks incomplete to me. I have been working on (cold) startup with Michael Meeks for OOo2.0, but others made it slower than we could make it faster :-( 
(16:44:52) LiHeng: Malte_:XML API is good ,but we have to change some implementation 
(16:45:14) Malte_: Right, that's the export optimizations :) 
(16:45:22) Malte_: I meant MHU... 
(16:45:32) Malte_: LiHeng: Sure. 
(16:45:59) Malte_: But sometimes you can not simply change implementation, in this case you probably have to use a different API same time... 
(16:46:14) Malte_: But before discussing this, let's clarify with what you want to start! 
(16:46:25) Malte_: I doubt you want to start both areas in parallel... 
(16:47:14) Malte_: IMHO you have to choose between startup or load/save now, what to do FIRST. 
(16:48:01) mhu: I still have the idea to start with a concrete end-user problem, analyze that, and possibly fix it. 
(16:48:34) Malte_: Sure - but do we really have other end user problems? LiHeng? 
(16:49:13) LiHeng: CH2000 have some report about performance from end-user 
(16:49:16) xiuzh1: OK, 
(16:50:04) mhu: LiHeng: can we share your report with Malte_ and mba? 
(16:51:02) LiHeng: mhu:Yes, i will send a email to them\ 
(16:51:51) LiHeng: mhu:maybe we can return to agenda :) 
(16:52:07) mhu: LiHeng: thanks. can we also make a systematic analysis of that report? I mean, look what the common problems are? 
(16:52:34) mhu: LiHeng: okay, let's return to agenda. 
(16:53:26) LiHeng: mhu: change the order , first How to we analysis the problem from the enduser ,right? 
(16:53:58) xiuzh1: LiHeng: You can paste them on http://pastebin.ca 
(16:54:01) mhu: LiHeng: Maybe I can continue the things that Sun did, first? 
(16:54:31) LiHeng: mhu:ok! 
(16:54:45) mhu: LiHeng: thanks, so... 
(16:55:46) mhu: What I did (with Michael Meeks of Novell) was to analyze the difference between cold and warm startup... 
(16:56:49) mhu: cold startup means, for example first start after boot of machine, when all libraries need be read from disk (not in cache)... 
(16:57:13) LiHeng: I see 
(16:57:33) mhu: for cold startup mainly the number and size of shared libraries matters... 
(16:58:27) mhu: to reduce size of shared libraries, we restricted number of exported function symbols and removed unused code (not much so far)... 
(16:59:36) mhu: also, for unix, we introduced a 'pagein' program into the startup that 'pages in' the libraries (sequential disk read, instead of demand paging)... 
(17:00:42) mhu: all in all, for cold start, I/O wait time is ~80% of the time, that is 5 times slower than warm start... 
(17:01:42) mhu: also, number and size of libraries loaded: as Malte said, we tried to avoid to load everything at startup... 
(17:02:13) xiuzh1: mhu: that also what we want to do 
(17:02:37) LiHeng: mhu:the number 80% is also got by YuGuoqiang,too 
(17:02:40) mhu: and, what needs to be loaded shall be small, for example we split off an 'cui.dll' (from svx) and 'swui.dll' from sw, and so on. That's is for now. 
(17:03:30) kuangliang: MHU:Can we delete it? 
(17:03:40) mhu: Can we delete what? 
(17:03:41) YuGuoqiang: :) 
(17:04:00) kuangliang: Split's dll? 
(17:04:05) LiHeng: kuangliang: what do you want to delete? 
(17:04:21) kuangliang: for example 'cui.dll' 
(17:04:49) mhu: we can't delete it, we only avoid loading it right at startup. 
(17:05:15) liangjun: MHU:can we load it when it is used? 
(17:05:25) mhu: cui.dll contains Tools->Options dialog for example. Not needed during start, but still. 
(17:05:42) mhu: liangjun: yes, that is the idea: load we needed. 
(17:05:50) YuGuoqiang: liangjun:What you said is lazy loading. 
(17:05:50) kuangliang: yes 
(17:05:58) mhu: yes 
(17:06:05) liangjun: yes 
(17:06:54) liangjun: I think some soft used plugin? can we use it ? 
(17:07:44) kuangliang: I think when OO startup some configuration files are accessed several times ,Can we control it? 
(17:07:47) mhu: plugin? you mean for not yet used functionality? yes, but you first need to separate that functionality 
(17:08:03) LiHeng: mhu:the important thing is removed unused code 
(17:08:26) mhu: LiHeng: yes, that is a good idea. 
(17:08:43) LiHeng: it's major cause in performance 
(17:09:06) LiHeng: we can do it module by module 
(17:09:07) mhu: We once started a small project to identify unused code. I don't know it's status. 
(17:09:33) YuGuoqiang: I think lazy loading and reduce the binaries' size are both good ideas, and I want to know it's how good for optimization result. 
(17:10:01) mhu: LiHeng: but you can ask Stefan Zimmermann for this code analysis project (and remove unused code). He was involved. 
(17:11:22) LiHeng: mhu:OK! And can we make suggestion for other project to reduce some object 
(17:11:35) mhu: I still have the idea that the real problem is not to improve startup by say 10% but by a factor of 10, and we should analyze the real problem first. 
(17:12:25) mhu: LiHeng: yes, the reduction of size is always good. 
(17:12:32) xiuzh1: mhu:I think so 
(17:12:43) LiHeng: mhu:I think so 
(17:12:55) mhu: Okay, thanks :-) 
(17:13:17) LiHeng: ok, do next item? 
(17:13:34) mhu: yes, i'm finished for now. 
(17:13:56) LiHeng: second : What tools we need? 
(17:14:35) kuangliang: Can we analyze OO by Sun Stdio? 
(17:14:39) YuGuoqiang: LiHeng: How about mba? He/She did not talk about what he/she did before. 
(17:15:14) mba: Our work was mainly related to supporting Matthias in his effort to get less code loaded on startup 
(17:15:16) LiHeng: Matle_:you have already built some tools for monitor and profile, can you introduce them ? 
(17:15:46) mba: So we coordinated and did the work that effectively removed several MB of code from that being loaded on startup. 
(17:16:22) Malte_: I have tools for measuring, not for profiling. 
(17:16:44) Malte_: This tool will measure startup and load/save of some tests docs. 
(17:16:46) mhu: kuangliang: yes, partly SunStudio can help also. More on Solaris 10 or OpenSolaris (Solaris 11) with 'dtrace' support. 
(17:17:02) Malte_: Optionally, it can do so for 2 versions of OOo, so you can compare them. 
(17:17:18) Malte_: This is very helpful to check if your optimizations really helped here. 
(17:17:33) LiHeng: Malte_: How can we get these tools? 
(17:17:35) Malte_: Because - the profiler sometimes tricks you ;) 
(17:17:56) Malte_: You think changing something makes a big differnce, but in reality, it doesn't :( 
(17:18:08) kuangliang: MHU:Thanks !And do you do anything by this way? 
(17:18:12) Malte_: This tool: I can send to you. 
(17:18:31) mhu: Yes, sometimes a simple wall-clock is sufficient for measurements. 
(17:18:36) Malte_: For some reason, only the Java binaries, no source right know, and not for making public on OOo right now.# 
(17:18:38) LiHeng: Malte_:I know it , but we need the profiling to make deeply analyze 
(17:19:04) Malte_: But you can configure it via config files, so you can change the measure points... 
(17:19:18) Malte_: Getting profilers is up to you. 
(17:19:24) Malte_: I used Intel VTune on Windows 
(17:19:32) Malte_: It's around $600, I think. 
(17:19:52) Malte_: You can download a trial version, with the resctriction that you can NOT save the results then 
(17:20:05) Malte_: On Linux you can use Valgrind. 
(17:20:11) Malte_: I didn't try it myself. 
(17:20:19) Malte_: It's free, but probably harder to use. 
(17:20:27) LiHeng: we will try to use Valgrind first 
(17:20:29) mhu: kuangliang: sometimes I work on solaris with 'dtrace', more often manually observing things than using SunStudio. In my experience, much of this work is manual anyway (and thinking :-) ). 
(17:20:44) Malte_: DTRACE is a very good choice! 
(17:21:01) Malte_: But when I worked on performance, it was not available, came in late in the game 
(17:21:14) kuangliang: MHU:ok 
(17:21:38) Malte_: DTRACE might be hard to use, but should be very accurate, with powerful features 
(17:21:56) mhu: Yes, dtrace was not yet finished when we worked on OOo2.0 
(17:22:25) kuangliang: In 
(17:22:33) Malte_: Using RTL_LOG (OOo source code feature) is also very helpful. 
(17:22:36) mhu: Most tools are hard to use, because they produce too much data. 
(17:22:40) Malte_: My tests are based on that. 
(17:22:45) Malte_: See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Performance => RTL_LOG 
(17:23:36) Malte_: BTW - the mentioned "Malte - we should really have your list embedded here ..." is this one: 
(17:23:37) xiuzh1: Malte_: can dtrace used on Linux platform? 
(17:23:47) Malte_: http://tools.openoffice.org/performance/performance-activities-overview.html 
(17:24:03) Malte_: xiuzh1: IMHO - no. 
(17:24:07) mhu: No, currently 'dtrace' is still a Solaris only feature. 
(17:24:18) Malte_: But OpenSolaris is free! 
(17:24:35) LiHeng: mhu: We will try to use the DTrace and Valgrind to profile the current version openoffice and make a report to expound the problem in our mind, and please help us to get the tools to measure that made by Malte 
(17:24:44) mhu: But rumours say, that Apple is including dtrace in MacOSX (I think FreeBSD already has it). 
(17:24:45) YuGuoqiang: How about gprof? 
(17:24:45) Malte_: BTW - Sun Studio on Solaris is also much better than any Linux Debugger 
(17:25:25) kuangliang: yes 
(17:25:38) mhu: The latest SunStudio is also free, and works on Linux. But I have not yet tested it on Linux. 
(17:26:20) LiHeng: mhu: We will try to use the DTrace and Valgrind to profile the current version openoffice and make a report to expound the problem in our mind, and please help us to get the tools to measure that made by Malte 
(17:26:30) mhu: LiHeng: yes, we will help you getting the tools, and also with testing them. 
(17:26:58) LiHeng: mhu: thank you very much 
(17:27:41) LiHeng: mhu: should we do next step? 
(17:27:49) mhu: LiHeng: you and your team can send email to me when and where you have a problem. When I cant answer, I'll ask Malte. 
(17:28:56) mhu: LiHeng: next step? is not the time over for today? 
(17:28:58) liangjun: mhu: think you . 
(17:29:29) Malte_: One suggestion: 
(17:29:32) mhu: LiHeng: what was the next step, that you wanted? 
(17:29:44) Malte_: Instead of IRC meetings - wouldn't email be sufficient? 
(17:29:53) LiHeng: mhu: ok we do next step next week? 
(17:30:19) mhu: LiHeng: Okay for me, or, as Malte said, via email? 
(17:30:52) mhu: LiHeng: But I can continue with IRC one hour a week. 
(17:31:39) LiHeng: mhu,matle: ok , we can do a lot of thing in email, but we can continue with IRC 
(17:32:19) mhu: LiHeng: fine. So make plan via IRC, do work via email? 
(17:32:37) Malte_: MBA and me would prefer to do email ONLY... 
(17:33:06) Malte_: Better exchanging mails every day when needed, then one fix meeting 
(17:33:44) mhu: Okay, I would then ask Malte and mba to help, when we need them, okay? 
(17:33:53) LiHeng: Matle_:can we do a meeting two weeks 
(17:36:02) Malte_: That means: 2 more IRC before stopping IRC, or IRC every two weeks? 
(17:36:05) LiHeng: Matle_: need discuss together 
(17:36:09) mhu: LiHeng: we can do IRC every week, no problem for me. we ask others to join when we think we need them, okay? 
(17:36:31) Malte_: Sounds good for me :) 
(17:36:56) Malte_: Which remembers me that some of you wanted to send minutes from last meeting ;) 
(17:36:57) xiuzh1: once a week is ok to discuss the requirement at the first several meetings. 
(17:36:59) LiHeng: mhu:Okay for me 
(17:37:44) mhu: LiHeng, xiuzh1: okay, thank you. 
(17:37:52) xiuzh1: one hour per IRC meeting is OK, I think 
(17:38:15) LiHeng: kuangliang :can you make the meeting minutes ?l 
(17:38:56) mhu: LiHeng: shall I send the IRC log again, or do you have that already? 
(17:39:20) LiHeng: mhu: yes, i have 
(17:39:37) LiHeng: mhu: and thank you 
(17:39:58) kuangliang: yes 
(17:40:17) LiHeng: Thanks to everybody, and that's all 
(17:40:26) mhu: Okay, thank you. 
(17:40:57) Malte_: Bye :) 
(17:41:01) xiuzh1: I have a news about the OOo code dump testing 
(17:41:09) LiHeng: Bye Malte 
(17:41:14) mhu: xiuzh1: yes? 
(17:41:15) kuangliang: bye 
(17:41:18) xiuzh1: not relationed to performance 
(17:41:22) YuGuoqiang: bye 
(17:41:27) liangjun: bye 
(17:41:33) LiHeng: xiuzh1:tell us 
(17:42:15) mhu: xiuzh1: I have a few minutes more time, please tell 
(17:42:33) xiuzh1: There is a test report from Chinese CSIP. They have measured the classes of writer and sc, 
(17:42:46) xiuzh1: they want to submit the report 
(17:43:04) xiuzh1: who will they email ? 
(17:43:46) mhu: Maybe Stefan? As I said, he was involved in a code analysis project here also. 
(17:43:51) xiuzh1: they worked with klocwork 
(17:44:38) LiHeng: xiuzh1:klocwork? 
(17:44:52) mhu: But I can receive that report also, if you want. 
(17:45:14) xiuzh1: LiHeng:yes 
(17:45:20) xiuzh1: mhu: OK 
(17:45:31) xiuzh1: I will email you 
(17:45:35) LiHeng: xiuzh1:and i want to get a copy 
(17:45:51) mhu: okay. 
(17:45:52) xiuzh1: any other people needed? 
(17:46:19) YuGuoqiang: xiuzhi: Please give me a copy also, thanks! 
(17:46:32) xiuzh1: maybe mba need one 
(17:46:38) mhu: let me look at the report first, then probably mba (mathias bauer) for sw and nn (niklas nebel) for sc. 
(17:46:50) xiuzh1: OK 
(17:46:51) liangjun: xiuzhi:and me .thanks! 
(17:46:58) Malte_: And I just for my interest ;) 
(17:47:35) mhu: okay, I need to leave now. Are we finished? 
(17:47:39) xiuzh1: ok, 
(17:47:40) xiuzh1: bye 
(17:47:59) LiHeng: mhu:yes ,and next week same time? 
(17:48:00) Malte_: Bye - again... ;) 
(17:48:15) mhu: same time, next thursday, yes. 
(17:48:33) mhu: good bye 
(17:48:44) LiHeng: bye 
(17:48:47) liangjun: bye 
(17:51:17) xiuzh1: LiHeng: are you there? 
(17:52:10) kuangliang: xiuzhi: i'm liheng 
(17:52:59) mba: bye 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2007/11/22==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2007/11/22 
Time: 15:55– 17:09 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 

(15:55:51) LiHeng: xiuzhi thant you for attending 
(15:56:03) xiuzhi: LiHeng:hi 
(15:56:18) xiuzhi: LiHeng: you are welcome 
(15:56:34) LiHeng: this time is first meeting ,please help us 
(15:57:37) xiuzhi: LiHeng:when you talk with somebody. please print his name , for example: LiHeng:.... 
(15:58:07) LiHeng: how long the meeting will take every time? 
(15:58:23) xiuzhi: op /LiHeng 
(15:58:58) xiuzhi: kuangliang:hi 
(15:59:13) xiuzhi: mba:morning 
(15:59:22) LiHeng: glad 
(15:59:34) YuGuoqiang: hello, everyone! 
(15:59:43) mba: Good morning / afternoon to everybody! 
(15:59:47) mhu: LiHeng: good afternoon; I think today the meeting can be less than 1 hour 
(15:59:54) kuangliang: Good morning / afternoon to everybody! 
(15:59:55) LiHeng: aha, glad to meet you mba 
(16:00:04) mhu: Good afternoon / morning everyone. 
(16:00:12) liangju1: Good afternoon / morning everyone. 
(16:00:23) xiuzhi: shall we start? 
(16:00:30) xiuzhi: Agenda: 
(16:00:31) xiuzhi: 1.RedFlag staff self-introduction 
(16:00:31) xiuzhi: 2.Sun Staff self-introduction 
(16:00:31) xiuzhi: 3.discuss the requirements for performance 
(16:00:31) xiuzhi: 4. Roundtable 
(16:00:54) xiuzhi: A1: RedFlag staff self -introduction 
(16:01:00) mhu: xiushi, yes we can start I think. The agenda is fine. 
(16:01:42) LiHeng: ok , i am first 
(16:02:03) LiHeng: My name is Li Heng 
(16:02:24) LiHeng: Director of System research dept 
(16:02:38) LiHeng: senior softare architect 
(16:02:50) xiuzhi: I am Xiuzhi , major on Document Formart . I worked for RedFlag ch2000 for 6 years 
(16:02:56) YuGuoqiang: I'm YuGuoqiang, you can call me Yu for short. I am an Architect of System Research Dept of Redflag2000. 
(16:03:06) kuangliang: Hello,I'm Kuang Liang , an architect of System Research Dept 
(16:03:45) liangju1: hello, I'm Zeng Liangjun.a architect of System Research Dept. Of Redflag2000 
(16:04:07) LiHeng: Kuangliang and I have worked for RedFlag Ch2000 for 6 years too 
(16:04:16) kuangliang: Yes 
(16:04:55) mhu: Okay, I think I'm next. 
(16:05:01) xiuzhi: A2.Sun Staff self-introduction 
(16:05:50) mhu: I am Matthias Huetsch, Sun Senior Staff Engineer and Software Architect for StarOffice and OpenOffice... 
(16:06:30) mhu: ...I am working for Sun / StarDivision for 11.5 years now in various positions. 
(16:06:46) mhu: Nice to meet you all, and work with you. 
(16:06:57) mba: I'm Mathias Bauer, former OOo Framework Project Lead and now Framework Co-Lead and Project Lead for Writer. At Sun I'm the manager of the Framework and Writer development teams. I'm working for Sun/StarDivision for more than 12 years. 
(16:07:02) LiHeng: nice to meet you too 
(16:07:19) xiuzhi: A3.discuss the requirements for performance 
(16:07:47) mhu: LiHeng: will you start? 
(16:07:53) LiHeng: okay 
(16:09:20) LiHeng: i think the performance project will maintain a good performance of openoffice 
(16:10:16) LiHeng: and the first we must locate the key part that results performance down, 
(16:11:19) LiHeng: the project ,must collect all questions and suggestion about performance from end-user 
(16:12:15) LiHeng: establish some item,pattern and design test case to evaluate performance of OO 
(16:13:04) Malte_: Hi :) 
(16:13:12) LiHeng: Hi 
(16:13:48) Malte_: I get the status from MHU via phone... 
(16:14:14) xiuzhi: (16:07:19) xiuzhi: A3.discuss the requirements for performance 
(16:14:14) xiuzhi: (16:07:46) mhu: LiHeng: will you start? 
(16:14:14) xiuzhi: (16:07:53) LiHeng: okay 
(16:14:14) xiuzhi: (16:09:20) LiHeng: i think the performance project will maintain a good performance of openoffice 
(16:14:14) xiuzhi: (16:10:17) LiHeng: and the first we must locate the key part that results performance down, 
(16:14:14) xiuzhi: (16:11:19) LiHeng: the project ,must collect all questions and suggestion about performance from end-user 
(16:14:17) xiuzhi: (16:12:15) LiHeng: establish some item,pattern and design test case to evaluate performance of OO 
(16:14:30) LiHeng: in future we must provide some special gear to maintain performance of new features that will add into the next version 
(16:14:46) LiHeng: that's all 
(16:15:01) mhu: Malte: LiHeng just introduces his view of the project. 
(16:15:49) mhu: LiHeng: thanks for the summary, I will answer in few seconds. What about Malte introducing himself quickly? 
(16:16:07) LiHeng: okay 
(16:16:10) xiuzhi: Malte_:morning 
(16:16:18) Malte_: Sure, wait a moment :) 
(16:16:52) Malte_: OK, 
(16:16:54) Malte_: I am Malte Timmermann, working on StarOffice/OpenOffice.org on > 15 years now. 
(16:16:55) Malte_: I worked a lot on performance, when OOo 2.0 early versions where VERY slow. 
(16:17:22) Malte_: I also coordinated most of the efforts here then... 
(16:17:59) mhu: Thanks Malte. 
(16:18:09) Malte_: Focus was on startup and document load/save, but as you see, there is STILL a lot of work to do :( 
(16:18:44) LiHeng: but it must be change :) 
(16:18:48) kuangliang: yes 
(16:19:22) Malte_: Sure, hope you guys will spend some full time work on it :) 
(16:19:52) mhu: LiHeng: Let me try a summary of what you said. (1) maintain good performance, ... 
(16:20:19) xiuzhi: RFch2000: 
(16:20:43) YuGuoqiang: OK 
(16:20:51) YuGuoqiang: xiuzhi:OK 
(16:21:00) mhu: ...(2) locate key parts..., (3) collect requirements from end-user..., (4) establish test cases to monitor performance... 
(16:21:21) xiuzhi: mhu,Malte_,mba: I told some basic rule of using IRC, sorry I use Chinese 
(16:21:22) mhu: Did I understand that correctly? 
(16:21:41) mhu: xiuzhi: okay, no problem 
(16:21:41) LiHeng: mhu: we must do something that can build openoffice in good state very version in future 
(16:21:49) Malte_: Point 4 was: evaluate, not monitor 
(16:21:53) LiHeng: mhu:not one version 
(16:22:01) Malte_: Sure monitoring is also important... 
(16:22:44) mhu: LiHeng: Yes, not just one version, but maintain good performance for future versions 
(16:22:58) LiHeng: i agree 
(16:24:06) Malte_: JFYI - we have some automatic performance tests already. 
(16:24:08) Malte_: They don't make the product faster, but they assure we don't become slower. 
(16:24:14) mhu: Malte developed and introduced some performance monitoring framework for child workspaces here in hamburg. 
(16:24:34) Malte_: We should try to bring them to OOo, IMHO. 
(16:24:44) LiHeng: mhu /Malte: so we have to some works to help the other developer to find the performance problem in new feature 
(16:24:45) Malte_: To RedFlag, at least. 
(16:25:37) mhu: Malte_: perhaps we can work on these tests with LiHeng's team, and see how we can improve them so that they work in Bejing as well. 
(16:26:10) LiHeng: we need the document about the monitoring framework 
(16:26:22) LiHeng: Malte:we need the document about the monitoring framework 
(16:26:58) Malte_: The automatic tests a good for 
(16:27:00) Malte_: - testing a CWS doesn't make OOo slower 
(16:27:02) Malte_: - check if your optimizations really help. 
(16:27:03) Malte_: No document, "just" some Java code ;) 
(16:27:55) LiHeng: Malte_: we need you help 
(16:28:31) LiHeng: Malte_:OpenOffice is so large 
(16:28:36) Malte_: If Dieter agrees, I bring them to OOo, and write some small documentation... 
(16:28:48) Malte_: Large is an other topic ;) 
(16:29:01) LiHeng: Malte_:Yes 
(16:29:10) Malte_: Sure it also has some influence on performance, but large is not the biggest issue for this... 
(16:29:26) Malte_: We need to analyze the start-up again. 
(16:29:41) Malte_: I assume there is still lot of configuration pasring involved. 
(16:29:45) xiuzhi: Malte_:code dump is OK, some document is better,I think 
(16:29:52) mhu: Okay, I talk to Malte and Dieter how to publish the performance test that we have. 
(16:30:07) Malte_: Yes. 
(16:30:24) Malte_: That's one thing you can use for verifying your work. 
(16:30:39) Malte_: But how/what do you plan to start with optimizing? 
(16:30:47) mhu: Can we please come back to the (1)-(4) summary that I sent before? 
(16:31:06) LiHeng: Malte_:We should define some number to expound the state of openoffice's performance 
(16:31:09) xiuzhi: mhu:I think so 
(16:31:34) mhu: I think we agree on (1) maintain long term good performance... 
(16:31:41) LiHeng: yes 
(16:32:09) Malte_: (1) maintain good performance 
(16:32:12) Malte_: (2) locate key parts 
(16:32:15) Malte_: (3) collect requirements from end-user 
(16:32:15) Malte_: (4) establish test cases to evaluate/monitor performance 
(16:32:17) Malte_: Yes, no discussion on 1.... :) 
(16:32:21) mhu: (2) "locate key parts " is the difficult part, we will need much time to work on this 
(16:32:56) LiHeng: mhu: we must do something for it 
(16:33:20) mba: I miss the statement that we have "cold start" and "warm start" (second start) performance; both are influenced by very different parameters 
(16:33:28) Malte_: I suggest RedFlag does some analyzes with profilers, and comes back with some suggestions we can discuss 
(16:33:33) LiHeng: no location ,we have to face whole system 
(16:33:34) mhu: (3) collect from end-user: Stefan Zimmermann did send me a document "Responses from the consumer", is that a good base to start discussion? 
(16:33:54) mba: IMHO "cold start" has not been looked at until now but in fact is the bigger problem 
(16:34:16) mba: Even our performance tests don't cover it 
(16:34:32) Malte_: Right... Hard to measure 
(16:34:46) Malte_: At least in automatic tests... 
(16:35:21) mhu: (4) test case to (a) evaluate and (b) monitor; I think we have talked about (4b) 
(16:37:14) mhu: I would like to into (3) first: determine what are the largest problems for an end-user, and agree on that... 
(16:37:18) LiHeng: We will do evaluate majar version of OpenOffice, and collect problem from end-user 
(16:38:28) mhu: LiHeng: yes, verify with end-user what largest problem is , that is good. 
(16:38:39) LiHeng: :0 
(16:38:43) LiHeng: :) 
(16:39:42) Malte_: Well, I don't think that we don't know the answer ;) 
(16:39:52) Malte_: Startup + doc load/save? 
(16:39:58) mhu: It is so easy to say, OOo is slow. We are engineers and need to look somewhat deeper, and that starts with asking: what is actually slow? 
(16:39:59) Malte_: Maybe memory consumption, too# 
(16:41:33) LiHeng: yes 
(16:41:46) mba: mhu: are you recommending profiling sessions? 
(16:41:54) LiHeng: we need more number to analysis the problem 
(16:42:02) mhu: LiHeng: You know the "Responses from consumer" spreadsheet, right? 
(16:42:27) LiHeng: mhu:yes i know it 
(16:43:01) Malte_: Mmmh - I don't :( 
(16:43:20) mhu: LiHeng: can we start with that? I think it already has some answers, like Malte said: combined startup and document load times, document save times. 
(16:43:44) LiHeng: mhu: it 's only a arrange 
(16:43:54) mhu: mba: sure, we always start with profiling :-) 
(16:44:19) mhu: LiHeng: can you explain? it is only what? 
(16:46:05) mhu: LiHeng: did you mean: it is only one aspect of the entire problem? or something different? 
(16:46:15) LiHeng: mhu: "Responses from consumer" is only arrange some number from user, and we must analyze 
(16:46:21) LiHeng: it 
(16:46:41) LiHeng: yes 
(16:47:06) mhu: LiHeng: we need to further analyze it, I only wanted to take that as a start to discuss. 
(16:47:41) LiHeng: yes 
(16:47:54) LiHeng: what is the profiling 
(16:48:07) LiHeng: mhu:what is the profiling? 
(16:49:03) mhu: Profiling means "to profile where (in the code most) of the time is spent for some operation". 
(16:50:07) mhu: For example Intel's "VTune" is such a tool, or the opensource "callgrind" 
(16:50:35) LiHeng: i know 
(16:51:05) mhu: okay, that is what we mean with "profiling" 
(16:52:44) LiHeng: mhu:do you have value of profiling? 
(16:54:33) mhu: LiHeng: no, in my expirience it is not static. We need to do that as continous part of our analysis where the largest problem is... 
(16:55:03) mhu: ...and that changes over time, when new features are integrated or other code is changed... 
(16:55:41) mhu: ...so, one version may be fast with something, then someone changes code, and it is slower... 
(16:56:19) LiHeng: mhu:so we must find it in child workspace 
(16:57:02) mhu: LiHeng: yes, that is best. find it in the child workspace where the code is introduced. 
(16:58:16) LiHeng: mhu: if we find the problem in a child workspace ,we must analyze it around to try to find out some framework should be changed 
(16:58:19) mhu: What I mean with not static: I know some data for OOo 2.0, but OOo 2.3.1 can have it's problems at other places. 
(16:59:35) mhu: Okay, how do we continue from here? I think we need much more time for discussions :-) 
(16:59:56) LiHeng: so we need to kown whole architect of OpenOffice 
(17:00:43) mhu: I think you already know much of the whole architecture. 
(17:01:07) LiHeng: Not every details 
(17:01:22) mhu: No one knowns all details :-) 
(17:01:49) mhu: But together, we know enough to solve most problems 
(17:02:03) LiHeng: Yes 
(17:03:26) mhu: LiHeng: can we meet next week at the same time? I like to write you an email to prepare that meeting. 
(17:03:44) LiHeng: Okay, 
(17:04:02) Malte_: If I should also attend, then 30 minutes later, please 
(17:04:25) LiHeng: my email: lih@redflag2000.cn 
(17:05:32) LiHeng: mhu: thank you and see you next week 
(17:05:37) mhu: LiHeng: thanks, my email is simply matthias.huetsch@sun.com (but Peter Junge and Stefan Zimmermann know me, you can ask them). 
(17:06:23) LiHeng: xiuzhi: something you want to talk? 
(17:06:38) xiuzhi: LiHeng:no 
(17:06:46) mhu: xuizhi, LiHeng: Do you have the time to start 30min later next time? 
(17:06:54) xiuzhi: LiHeng:Please ask someone to write the meeting minutes 
(17:07:12) xiuzhi: mhu:Yes 
(17:07:15) LiHeng: ok 
(17:07:28) Malte_: Perfect :) 
(17:07:30) mhu: xiuzhi: I hope that I can send the logfile for this session as minutes. 
(17:07:48) LiHeng: mhu : yes i will send the minutes to you 
(17:08:05) xiuzhi: mhu:fine, but it is too simple , I have a meeting minutes template 
(17:08:20) Malte_: Nice to hear :) 
(17:08:23) xiuzhi: LiHeng: Please ask liutao for the template 
(17:08:35) LiHeng: mhu:you can send the template to me 
(17:08:38) Malte_: Probably better then a simple log file... 
(17:09:02) mhu: Okay, then please send real minutes. Have a good evening. See you next week. 
(17:09:23) Malte_: Bye :) 
(17:09:33) LiHeng: Bye! 
(17:09:37) YuGuoqiang: Bye:) 
(17:09:40) kuangliang: Bye 
(17:09:43) liangju1: Bye:) 
(17:09:53) mhu: Bye all 

[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2007 12

2010-03-17T23:13:39Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2007/12/13==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2007/12/13 
Time: 16:28– 17:47 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:28:15) LiHeng: hello!:) 
(16:33:00) xiuzhi: hi all 
(16:33:14) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being late. 
(16:33:29) LiHeng: mhu:hi mhu 
(16:33:53) xiuzhi: hi all 
(16:33:55) yugq: hello, everyone! 
(16:34:08) LiHeng: mhu:did you receive the agenda for today 
(16:34:26) mhu: yes, I've seen the agenda. Fine for me. 
(16:35:12) LiHeng: are there some tipoc you want to insert to it? 
(16:35:23) LiHeng: mhu:are there some tipoc you want to insert to it? 
(16:35:38) mhu: No, I'm fine with the agenda as is. 
(16:35:54) LiHeng: ok, let's start 
(16:36:04) mhu: yes 
(16:36:20) LiHeng: .Review the mission of Project discuss in previous IRCs 
(16:37:00) LiHeng: for RF2000,the performance project will maintain a good performance of openoffice 
(16:37:11) liangjun: hello .:) 
(16:37:28) mhu: yes, agreed: maintain (longterm) good performancd 
(16:38:06) mhu: s/performancd/performance/ 
(16:38:30) LiHeng: mhu::)it'll be mission for Preformance project 
(16:38:54) LiHeng: xiuzhi:how do you think about it? 
(16:39:42) xiuzhi: LiHeng:agreed 
(16:40:10) LiHeng: main case for the missiom is build and maintain monitor,profiling tools and design test case to evaluate performance of OO 
(16:40:43) mhu: yes 
(16:42:03) LiHeng: ok, the last,Malte developed and introduced some performance monitoring framework for child workspaces here in hamburg, we will take them to OO.o or Beijing RF2000?
(16:43:11) xiuzhi: mhu: where is malte? 
(16:43:25) mhu: What I heard from Malte, is that he will first give the framework to you, only. No time to put it on OOo. 
(16:44:10) mhu: xiuzhi: Malte and MBA said, they will be available via email, and join IRC only when we need them. 
(16:44:36) mhu: i.e., they have too many meetings 
(16:44:46) xiuzhi: mhu:ok 
(16:44:49) LiHeng: mhu:ok, but we hope to get the code of those tools 
(16:45:03) LiHeng: can we do it? 
(16:45:13) mhu: LiHeng: yes, that is what Malte said to me. Don't know when. 
(16:45:46) mhu: I will ask Malte for more details. 
(16:45:59) LiHeng: mhu: i will send a mail to Malte ,too 
(16:46:24) mhu: LiHeng: okay, that will help. 
(16:46:36) LiHeng: that's all to tipoc 1 
(16:46:54) LiHeng: Are we going to the next topic? 
(16:46:59) mhu: okay, I think the mission is okay 
(16:47:21) LiHeng: Project work scope 
(16:47:43) LiHeng: 2.1 Maintain tools for performance 2.2 Evaluating OpenOffice 2.3 Analyze report from end-user and testing 2.4 Work out proposal for optimizing and refactoring 
(16:47:45) xiuzhi: mhu:okey 
(16:48:57) LiHeng: mhu: do you think these working can make OO in a good performance status?
(16:49:31) yugq: I tried VTune on Windows and Valgrind on Linux last week, they worked well and I think thease tools can help us. 
(16:49:36) mhu: LiHeng: can I write a longer reply? give me a minute pease. 
(16:49:55) mhu: s/pease/please/ 
(16:50:17) LiHeng: yes , i'm ok 
(16:51:07) mhu: 2.1 tools: I usually select the tools that best answer my question, i.e. I first have the question than select the tools... 
(16:51:34) mhu: ...this is because different tools can help you with different questions... 
(16:51:48) yugq: mhu: yes 
(16:52:32) mhu: ...e.g. valgrind/cachegrind/callgrind /Vtune help you when you want to know the callstacks for a particular problem... 
(16:52:35) LiHeng: mhu:yes, we can list tools for all developers,and analyze for very major vesion 
(16:52:59) mhu: but they generate too much data, when you do not yet know where to look. 
(16:53:04) yugq: mhu: valgrind has many tools to do different analization in different aspects of performance. 
(16:53:51) mhu: okay, I see that you already have worked with these tools and know what they can do and when they might help. 
(16:54:32) yugq: mhu: do you think the first thing we need do is knowing the problem and then do profiling? 
(16:54:55) mhu: yugq: yes, that is what I'm trying to say. 
(16:55:20) LiHeng: mhu:okey 
(16:55:39) yugq: mhu: ok 
(16:56:06) mhu: That's also the reason, why I always asked for your "end-user problem" spreadsheet. 
(16:56:31) LiHeng: yes , next Analyze report from end-user and testing 
(16:56:54) mhu: yes 
(16:57:56) LiHeng: Project would make the report to analyze the problem from end-user 
(16:58:28) mhu: I think we know the two major effects (startup + doc. load/save times), but do we know what is worst? 
(16:59:00) mhu: LiHeng: yes, we can start with that report to analyze problem. 
(16:59:41) LiHeng: we would collect problem again in beijing 
(16:59:45) xiuzhi: mhu: IMHO load/save is worst 
(17:00:24) mhu: xiuzhi: yes, that is also what I read from your spreadsheet. 
(17:00:26) xiuzhi: mhu: sorry. I misunstand you 
(17:00:37) LiHeng: xiuzhi: startup load/save are easy to look, but maybe not be worst?:) 
(17:00:48) yugq: I think it's hard to say what is worse to end-user. Both worst.;-) 
(17:01:33) xiuzhi: mhu: What is "what is worst" mean? 
(17:01:48) mhu: yugq: maybe it is the combination: double click doc on desktop; application starts; loads document. 
(17:02:18) yugq: xiuzhi: maybe "what is the worst thing" 
(17:02:46) mhu: xiuzhi: means: what does a enduser see as the worst problem, and what do we analyze to be the largest effect. 
(17:03:00) yugq: mhu: yes 
(17:03:02) xiuzhi: mhu: ok 
(17:03:18) LiHeng: would we be going to topic 3, and in roadmap of project we can set the target for the analysis of profiling and problems? 
(17:03:50) mhu: means: enduser sees long doc load time, but we analyse app starts too slow, but then loads doc fast (just scenario) 
(17:04:38) xiuzhi: mhu: I see now 
(17:04:44) yugq: mhu: yes 
(17:04:58) mhu: okay, I cant typw / write so fast :-( 
(17:05:10) mhu: s/typw/type/ 
(17:05:28) mhu: I'm ready for next topic, now. 
(17:05:45) LiHeng: mhu: yes, we must differ the feel and the fact!! 
(17:06:21) LiHeng: xiuzhi:can we be going to next ? 
(17:06:38) mhu: LiHeng: yes; you see, I have been a scientist in my former life :-) 
(17:06:53) xiuzhi: LiHeng: yee 
(17:07:24) mhu: LiHeng: yes, next topic 
(17:07:27) LiHeng: 3.Roadmap/Schedule & Routine 
(17:08:37) mhu: I leave the Roadmap to you; I will help as much as I can, but you do the work. So you say what you want. 
(17:08:45) xiuzhi: LiHeng: do you have any proposal about the roadmap? 
(17:10:10) LiHeng: mhu: first some Routine, we want make a report to performance for every major version of openoffice, 
(17:10:43) mhu: yes, such a report will help to analyze. 
(17:12:22) mhu: but instead of major version, what do you think of the quarterly releases, i.e. 2.3.1, 2.3.0, 2.2.1, ...? 
(17:12:23) xiuzhi: LiHeng: yes, it is the base of further analyzing 
(17:12:26) LiHeng: and Project will set a series of number to explain the report and differ different version 
(17:13:27) mhu: yes, we will have a series of numbers helping to explain what we see. 
(17:13:28) xiuzhi: LiHeng: every release version is OK 
(17:13:30) LiHeng: mhu:the dev version , i think 
(17:14:08) LiHeng: we can make release version well 
(17:14:24) mhu: LiHeng: okay, if we can do more versions (dev builds also) that will be fine. But this may not be necessary to start . 
(17:14:41) xiuzhi: LiHeng: dev version is too many ,I think 
(17:15:11) LiHeng: xiuzhi & mhu : we can select some stable version? 
(17:15:16) yugq: I think we can focus on main versions first 
(17:15:16) mhu: dev builds may be long term goal of "monitoring performance" 
(17:16:15) mhu: LiHeng: yes, stable (public) releases like 2.3.1 and so on, will be fine for a start. 
(17:16:18) LiHeng: mhu: aha, i see , i agree to release version , we can do better to next release:) 
(17:16:28) xiuzhi: LiHeng: There willbe one to two stable dev version, 
(17:16:54) xiuzhi: LiHeng: per month 
(17:17:22) xiuzhi: mhu: agreed, That would be fine for us 
(17:18:30) LiHeng: mhu: do you think our first step can start from 2.3.1? 
(17:18:56) mhu: LiHeng: yes, that would be a good start, I think. 
(17:19:08) xiuzhi: LiHeng: OOo 2.4 cannot be available until March. 2008 
(17:19:41) mhu: yes, for 2.4 there are currently only weekly dev builds. 
(17:20:25) LiHeng: mhu:ok , we make a schedule for first step now 
(17:20:29) LiHeng: ;) 
(17:20:33) xiuzhi: 2.3.1 Is a good choice if we will launch this project now 
(17:20:47) mhu: perhaps we can also look at a second version, and try to understand what has changed, if e.g. startup is different. 
(17:21:13) LiHeng: mhu:good point!:) 
(17:21:39) yugq: yes, it will be a reference 
(17:21:45) LiHeng: mhu: please choice the second for us 
(17:22:15) mhu: LiHeng: maybe, I can find some old data to show the history of OOo 1.1 -> 2.0
(17:22:32) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I will think about a second version. 
(17:22:46) LiHeng: thank you 
(17:22:48) yugq: mhu: it will help us much! 
(17:23:37) LiHeng: mhu:we will make the report for 2.3.1 in two mouth, 
(17:24:03) LiHeng: and analyze it to show worst 
(17:24:30) mhu: okay, fine. 
(17:24:48) LiHeng: then combine the end-user problem to the report 
(17:25:19) LiHeng: sorry , in two months 
(17:25:44) mhu: LiHeng: yes, understood; 2 months 
(17:26:32) LiHeng: in this period , we will also do documentation for RTL and other profiling tools 
(17:27:34) mhu: yes, that will also help; I think, Malte and I have never document our experience with the tools 
(17:27:52) mhu: s/document/documented/ 
(17:27:54) LiHeng: for the details of the schedule, i will give you a mail, and some cases we need Malte's help 
(17:28:35) mhu: okay; yes, Malte (and others) will help when needed. 
(17:28:52) LiHeng: yes ,yes ,yes 
(17:29:03) LiHeng: going to last topic? 
(17:29:08) mhu: okay 
(17:29:22) LiHeng: a little topic: Setup Mailinglist and Homepage of Project 
(17:30:18) LiHeng: mhu: do we need the mailinglist and homepage on openoffice now? 
(17:30:32) xiuzhi: mhu: ,meeting minutes and documents involved in should be public on wiki page . and the mailing list and so on 
(17:30:49) xiuzhi: mhu: who is responsible for this? 
(17:30:54) mhu: I know, you already work with other teams, e.g. the framework (mba, cd) team. How do you communicate there?... 
(17:31:30) mhu: xiuzhi: yes, wiki as webpage and for minutes is good (and preferred choice) 
(17:32:00) LiHeng: mhu: who can we contact to? 
(17:32:01) xiuzhi: mhu: there is a @framework mailing list and @dev.. 
(17:32:27) xiuzhi: mhu: we need a independent mailling list for this project 
(17:32:53) mhu: xiuzhi: okay, dev@framework is what I thought. .. 
(17:33:00) xiuzhi: mhu: we will use dev@... and @ performance ... That would be fine 
(17:33:03) xiuzhi: mhu:yes 
(17:33:28) mhu: do we really need a different mailing list? I think, the framework team can be of good help anyway. 
(17:34:17) xiuzhi: mhu:Yes. we need because the performance is an independent project. 
(17:34:34) mhu: xiuzhi: okay, I see your point... 
(17:35:01) mhu: ...let me think how we can have that independent mailing list... 
(17:35:33) mhu: ...current ooo infrastructure cannot easily create such a separate mailing list... 
(17:35:33) xiuzhi: mhu: new layout manager is included in framework , so it is not necessory for that project, that is not really a project 
(17:36:15) mhu: ...let me talk to Martin and Stefan Taxhet how we can create some mailing list for this project. 
(17:36:29) LiHeng: xiuzhi:maybe we can create a wiki and homepage only? 
(17:36:36) xiuzhi: mhu: okey, thanks a lot 
(17:36:51) xiuzhi: LiHeng: not enough for us 
(17:37:12) xiuzhi: LiHeng: we need more help from all over the OOo community 
(17:37:15) mhu: LiHeng: we can start with the wiki now / today / next week. a mailing will take some time. 
(17:37:28) xiuzhi: LiHeng: so mailinglist is necessory 
(17:37:45) xiuzhi: mhu:okey, a good idea 
(17:38:02) LiHeng: mhu:thanks a lot 
(17:38:05) xiuzhi: LiHeng: so we can create a wiki page for this project now 
(17:38:33) LiHeng: xiuzhi:do you know how can make it? 
(17:38:41) xiuzhi: LiHeng: yes 
(17:38:57) LiHeng: everything is ok 
(17:39:14) xiuzhi: LiHeng: Peter and Yunan can do a help, you can ask them tomorrow 
(17:39:34) LiHeng: mhu: we make a big step ;) 
(17:39:45) LiHeng: thank you! 
(17:40:00) mhu: LiHeng: yes, also thank you! 
(17:40:15) LiHeng: mhu:so, that's all today for me 
(17:40:21) mhu: okay, I have one last topic for today... 
(17:40:42) LiHeng: ok,please! 
(17:40:58) mhu: ...I am out of office for the next 3 weeks (holidays for xmas and new year)... 
(17:41:17) mhu: ...so I wont be available until 2nd week of January. 
(17:41:40) yugq: mhu: Wish you have a good holiday!:-D 
(17:42:12) LiHeng: mhu:from next week to 2nd of jan? 
(17:42:24) mhu: yes. so, the next meeting for me would be Thursday, ~10th January (don't have the exact date). 
(17:42:34) liangjun: mhu:ya , Wish good holiday. 
(17:42:38) xiuzhi: mhu: ok, have a good trip 
(17:42:54) LiHeng: mhu:best wish! 
(17:43:17) mhu: okay, thank you all for your good wishes. I wish you all the best also. See you next year. 
(17:43:58) xiuzhi: mhu: we can use this peoried to prepare the document and setup the wiki page and start analyzing... 
(17:44:10) xiuzhi: mhu: see you 
(17:44:11) LiHeng: mhu:we have a request 
(17:44:23) mhu: LiHeng: yes? 
(17:45:03) LiHeng: can you send us a photo of you, let us know you farther? 
(17:45:16) xiuzhi: LiHeng: I have one 
(17:45:34) xiuzhi: LiHeng: but not him only. 
(17:45:55) mhu: LiHeng: okay, let me see if I can find one. But I think Peter Junge may have a photo of mine. You can also ask him. 
(17:46:12) LiHeng: okey, that's all 
(17:46:41) mhu: okay, and good bye. 
(17:46:55) LiHeng: bye, 
(17:46:57) yugq: bye! 
(17:46:59) xiuzhi: bye 
(17:47:06) liangjun: bye :) 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 02

2010-03-17T23:13:28Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/02/28==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/02/28 
Time: 16:30– 17:24 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:31:39) LiHeng: hello 
(16:31:52) LiHeng: waiting.... 
(16:32:14) LiHeng: Everybody English now! 
(16:32:28) kuangliang: Hello guys 
(16:34:57) LiHeng: Did you revc the agenda? 
(16:35:11) yugq: yes 
(16:36:41) mhu: Hi all; sorry for being late. 
(16:37:24) yugq: hi 
(16:37:35) liangjun: mhu: hello 
(16:37:51) LiHeng: hello ! 
(16:38:28) mhu: I hope, you're all well, and had good new year holydays. 
(16:38:54) LiHeng: mhu:yes , thank you 
(16:39:31) LiHeng: mhu:did you get the agenda? 
(16:40:36) LiHeng: mhu:Do you have some topics you want ? 
(16:40:40) mhu: LiHeng: yes, and now I've also read it. looks fine for me. 
(16:41:06) mhu: No additional topics. 
(16:41:32) LiHeng: let's begin from How to issue the profiling reports made by Valgrind to all developer.:) 
(16:41:59) LiHeng: yugq:please:) 
(16:42:04) yugq: OK 
(16:43:10) yugq: The output data from valgrind profiling is difficult to read. But we can read cachegrind and callgrind output data with KCachegrind. 
(16:44:04) yugq: Memcheck output data is better than callgrind data, but still bad. 
(16:44:07) mhu: yes, i've used kcachegrind as well 
(16:44:52) LiHeng: mhu:but kcachegrind can run only on the linux 
(16:45:18) yugq: The problem is how to put these data to wiki to share with others and compare them with each other. 
(16:45:42) mhu: LiHeng: yes, but valgrind is Linux only, too. Or do I misunderstand something? 
(16:45:43) yugq: One way is using snapshot pictures. 
(16:46:21) LiHeng: mhu:if we publish the data with analysis reports , can all developers read and use it to compare? 
(16:46:55) mhu: Oh, you're speaking of the raw data? 
(16:47:22) yugq: I think most of performance optimization achieves are available to other platform either. 
(16:47:27) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(16:47:46) mhu: yes, raw data will be difficult to interpret for other devolpers. 
(16:48:30) yugq: how we compare data with every profiling and let others know that. 
(16:49:35) LiHeng: so, do developers of OO need a tools to anlysis the raw data anywhere? 
(16:50:18) mhu: I think, we need to "reduce" the (amount of) data to "some" numbers first, before we (a) present them, and (b) compare them with other profiling runs. 
(16:50:58) mhu: ...where we still would need to define what "reduce" and "some" actually should mean. 
(16:51:16) LiHeng: Are there many develops need raw data ? 
(16:51:37) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(16:52:15) mhu: LiHeng: the general developer should be able to follow our conclusioins, I think, but does not necessarily need to have all the same tools (only if she wants to reproduce our conclusions). 
(16:53:21) LiHeng: In Beijing we will make anlysis report by the raw data with our point, but i think other developers would want to use the data for other views 
(16:53:22) mhu: As to publishing the (maybe raw) data... 
(16:53:28) yugq: Presenting key data is a good idea. 
(16:54:24) mhu: ...I would think, that we could use the tools.openoffice.org website to upload the data, and then put a link to them into the wiki. 
(16:54:32) LiHeng: yugq:yes; ) 
(16:55:03) LiHeng: mhu:ok 
(16:55:30) yugq: mhu: ok 
(16:55:58) mhu: yes, I think providing the data for others to reproduce is fine. 
(16:56:20) mhu: s/reproduce/reproduce our conclusions/ 
(16:56:38) LiHeng: we will anlyze the raw data for one or two weeks , and publish both of reports and raw data on wiki 
(16:56:57) mhu: okay, fine with me. 
(16:57:52) mhu: If you want, you could send the raw data to me, so that I can join you and have a look at the data as well. 
(16:57:53) LiHeng: mhu: did you watch the wiki page recently? 
(16:58:13) mhu: LiHeng: no, sorry. I've not have a look at wiki. 
(16:58:21) yugq: mhu: OK, we need your help :) 
(16:58:53) LiHeng: mhu:please help us to check wiki, we do some change;) 
(16:59:54) LiHeng: go topic 2? 
(17:00:16) mhu: LiHeng: okay, I'm now looking at the wiki page. The top of the page already looks much cleaner than before, I think. 
(17:00:35) mhu: yes, we can go to topic 2. 
(17:00:59) LiHeng: thank you! 
(17:01:17) LiHeng: 2.Start to document for profiling tools 
(17:01:57) yugq: I have a question for this topic 
(17:02:12) LiHeng: yugq:please:) 
(17:02:25) LiHeng: yugq:sorry 
(17:03:04) yugq: will the document for profiling tools be presented on tools project or performance project? 
(17:04:53) yugq: mhu said the profiling data would be presented on tools project. 
(17:06:00) mhu: oh, yes. I would suggest to place documents / data / ... onto the tools.openoffice.org (project) website, and descriptive text onto the wiki. 
(17:06:18) yugq: mhu: OK, thanks! 
(17:06:38) LiHeng: yugq:have more? 
(17:06:41) mhu: If the documents are "only" text, they could go into the wiki, of course. 
(17:07:18) mhu: ...but images, odt, pdf, ... are better uploaded to the project website. 
(17:08:00) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(17:08:11) yugq: LiHeng: no more 
(17:09:03) LiHeng: mhu: i have send a email to matle to ask profiling-tools and source of them, but he did not reply 
(17:09:41) mhu: LiHeng: okay, I'll talk to Malte, and ask him to reply (at least). 
(17:10:25) LiHeng: mhu:thank you, 
(17:11:20) LiHeng: we will make some profiling data on OO2.3.1with those tools, but did OO have some already? 
(17:11:23) mhu: LiHeng: with "profiling tools and source" you mean "automated CWS performance test", yes? 
(17:12:32) LiHeng: mhu: so yes ,but and the monitor built by Matle 
(17:12:58) mhu: LiHeng: okay, yes Malte did build them. 
(17:13:21) LiHeng: we hope to document for those tools 
(17:13:58) mhu: ...and, no, I don't think that we save the results of the automated performance tests.
(17:13:59) LiHeng: and make report with them 
(17:14:31) mhu: ...in particular not any details (like cachegrind logfiles). 
(17:15:12) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(17:15:15) mhu: LiHeng: yes, that sounds like a good plan (document tools, and make reports, as you said). 
(17:15:38) LiHeng: mhu: we want to develop base those tools, and get more useful data 
(17:16:21) mhu: yes, understood. I'll talk to Malte. 
(17:17:16) LiHeng: and that , we will make report with both of common profile tools and private tools every time. 
(17:18:01) LiHeng: mhu: publish the result ,and source only in Beijing and Berlin 
(17:18:23) LiHeng: sorry Hamburg:) 
(17:19:26) mhu: well, berlin is only ~280km from hamburg :-) 
(17:19:40) yugq: :-D 
(17:20:49) liangjun: :) 
(17:20:50) LiHeng: :) so , please help us get the source as quickly as possible, we want to start this work at March 15, 
(17:21:15) mhu: yes, I'll see what I can do. 
(17:21:40) LiHeng: mhu:thank you very much! 
(17:22:00) mhu: anything more for today ? (I am somewhat in a hurry, sorry) 
(17:22:08) mhu: LiHeng: you are welcome. 
(17:22:16) LiHeng: that all, for me 
(17:22:25) LiHeng: other ones? 
(17:22:29) yugq: no more, for me 
(17:22:56) liangjun: no thing 
(17:23:09) mhu: okay, I send email when I know more. Otherwise, see you next Thursday. Good bye. 
(17:23:21) LiHeng: mhu: next time we will dicuss severl key point about performance of OO 
(17:23:33) mhu: LIHeng: okay. 
(17:23:35) LiHeng: see you next week, 
(17:23:38) LiHeng: bye 
(17:23:44) yugq: bye 
(17:23:45) mhu: bye all. 
(17:24:00) liangjun: bye 

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[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 03

2010-03-17T23:13:16Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/03/27==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/03/27 
Time: 16:24– 17:29 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:24:09) LiHeng: hi 
(16:28:17) LiHeng: where is zenglj? 
(16:30:04) mhu: Hi all 
(16:30:19) LiHeng: hello 
(16:30:36) LiHeng: how about your holiday? 
(16:31:19) yugq: mhu, hi. 
(16:31:52) mhu: oh, thanks. that was a good time. 
(16:32:30) mhu: hi, yugq. 
(16:32:31) LiHeng: mhu:we have some trouble with network , so zenglj would login later, we go first! 
(16:32:45) mhu: LiHeng: okay. 
(16:32:51) LiHeng: mhu:did you receive the Agenda? 
(16:33:10) mhu: yes, I've read the agenda; looks okay. 
(16:34:47) LiHeng: from this week, we start to do someting factly for performance optimizting 
(16:36:12) LiHeng: Today , We start from "Optimizing in XML I/O, to improve config and document loading" 
(16:36:42) liangjun: Hello every body. sorry. 
(16:37:22) mhu: okay, sounds like a valuable task to start. 
(16:38:08) LiHeng: mhu: we think that configmgr have some mainly problems , XML I/O is one of those 
(16:38:40) mhu: yes, as we said last time: configmgr is a good place to optimize. 
(16:38:46) LiHeng: so, we want to optimizing XML Process and improve config load 
(16:40:04) LiHeng: mhu:yes , and you say other team just working in configmgr , so we want to improve XML I/O 
(16:40:51) yugq: There are some "heap manage" process in configmgr, and it seems they consume a lot of call time from the profile. 
(16:41:24) mhu: ah good; but you could also look and and see, what others are actually doing (and if anything is actually done). 
(16:42:13) mhu: yugq: yes, that is what I think someone has already looked into... wait a second, I try to find something... 
(16:43:46) LiHeng: we are making a proposal on ConfigMgr and XML I/O , and that we will send to you and SB . so we can discuss them in mailing list 
(16:44:06) xiuzhi: sorry I am too late as the traffic jam 
(16:44:35) yugq: xiuzhi: hi! 
(16:44:35) LiHeng: xiuzhi: It is Beijing's traffic, alway jam 
(16:44:46) mhu: yugq: on the "Performance" wiki page, under "Work List and Progress" there is mentioned a "configrefactor01" cws; this might be the work that once was started to simplify the configmgr code. 
(16:44:52) xiuzhi: yugh: :) 
(16:44:55) mhu: yiuzhi: hi 
(16:45:02) xiuzhi: LiHeng :) 
(16:45:09) xiuzhi: mhu::) 
(16:45:17) LiHeng: ;) 
(16:45:26) yugq: mhu: Thanks! I'll check it. 
(16:45:40) mhu: s/yiuzhi/xiuzhi/ 
(16:45:51) mhu: :-) 
(16:47:01) LiHeng: mhu:do you think we can make an independent module to process XML I/O 
(16:47:06) mhu: LiHeng: okay, yes a proposal would be good; and yes, SB and I would surely be right to read that proposal. 
(16:47:41) mhu: LiHeng: I think there are already some independent modules to process xml... 
(16:49:07) mhu: there is a "stoc/..." module for xml document handler (based on expat), and there is a "unoxml" or so module, based on libxml, ...and so on. 
(16:49:41) liangjun: The oo currentry configmgr use the sax component .It's right? 
(16:49:48) LiHeng: mhu: oh, I just want to make sure ,that any function that process XML is indenpendent, is not? 
(16:50:06) mhu: yes, I think they use the sax component from the stoc module. 
(16:50:12) yugq: All use sax to parse I think. 
(16:50:45) mhu: yes and no, some part (dont know which) uses DOM from unoxml. 
(16:51:07) yugq: And every kind of XML should have a paser implementation. 
(16:51:10) mhu: but yes, most use sax. 
(16:51:24) LiHeng: liangjun:The SAX wourld not be made cache for deal some problem , so we also need DOM support 
(16:52:02) LiHeng: s/wourld/would 
(16:52:59) liangjun: LiHeng:I think it only parser.and cache the result . 
(16:54:22) liangjun: LiHeng:I think it only parser once .and cache the result as tree struct. 
(16:54:55) LiHeng: liangjun: not caching ALL, only needed 
(16:56:36) LiHeng: so , if we have module that deal with SAX and DOM, we can make performance well 
(16:56:51) LiHeng: xiuzhi:do you think so? 
(16:57:52) LiHeng: and if we make a well XML module , document load/save will fine too, one stone two bird;) 
(16:58:42) mhu: I think, a good (xml) base implementation is only one part; the code that uses this base implementation can still make silly things (e.g. call a million times instead of a thousand times). 
(16:59:06) xiuzhi: Liheng:agreed 
(16:59:44) liangjun: LiHeng: It possible has two manager, one for currently using reslut ; one for currently not using result ;:) 
(17:00:15) yugq: mhu: agree! 
(17:00:36) LiHeng: mhu:yes, so i think we must improve DOM, and developers can deal some complex problem with only one cache 
(17:01:36) yugq: LiHeng: I think we can deal with different XMLs with different parsers. 
(17:02:05) yugq: LiHeng: But to document, I think sax is better. 
(17:02:14) LiHeng: yes , it the second topic ,today ;) 
(17:02:35) mhu: are we really sure where the problem with xml parsing actually is; is it the basic xml parser code, or is it the code that uses the parser ? 
(17:02:43) yugq: Because document file sometimes is not "tiny" one, but "huge". 
(17:03:45) mhu: I also think that a sax implementation is the basic part to get right. 
(17:03:47) yugq: mhu: Yes. To find out what really cause problem is most important. 
(17:03:50) LiHeng: yugh: yes, for "huge" some data can be parsed on needed only 
(17:05:19) LiHeng: mhu: On sax base, we must process all data from Config or document, but some data will be not used 
(17:07:05) LiHeng: mhu: for a huge configuration or document, we can't build a mapping cache for all data , and parsing parts that to be needed 
(17:08:01) yugq: LiHeng: maybe we can find out what really cause problem and try your idea. 
(17:08:29) mhu: okay, understood. you think of an efficient caching mechanism. I leave that to you to come up with good ideas here. 
(17:09:02) LiHeng: and provide DOM interface on cache , if any function need that part , they can access it by those interface 
(17:09:04) LiHeng: :) 
(17:09:07) LiHeng: Yes 
(17:09:44) xiuzhi: +1 caching mechanism 
(17:10:10) LiHeng: mhu, we can discuss more details in mailinglist , for caching mechanism :) 
(17:10:29) mhu: if you need test cases for "huge" documents, try spreadsheets; they can easily be made several hundred megabytes of xml to parse. 
(17:10:55) liangjun: LiHeng: and about OO currently implement ? 
(17:11:00) LiHeng: mhu: thank for your tip, we just need it 
(17:11:26) LiHeng: liangjun: what do you means? 
(17:11:47) LiHeng: how about OO implement XML now ? 
(17:12:07) mhu: you could ask Niklas Nebel (spreadsheet project lead; xiuzhi should perhaps know him) for test documents. 
(17:12:16) liangjun: LiHeng:how about OO implement caching now ? 
(17:12:45) LiHeng: most using sax , no caching, 
(17:13:18) LiHeng: and DOM parse all tags and build memory structure, 
(17:13:33) mhu: liangjun: there is almost no caching. for documents, all is directly converted via sax into document model objects (in module xmloff). 
(17:14:52) LiHeng: ok, can we going into next? 
(17:14:59) mhu: yes. 
(17:15:03) yugq: yes 
(17:15:10) LiHeng: 2.discuss about loading-time of configuration 
(17:15:36) xiuzhi: mhu:yes. Niklas is expert on this spreadsheet, we can discuss it with him and erAck 
(17:16:19) mhu: xiuzhi: so, you also know Eike; good. 
(17:16:42) LiHeng: but i don't know him 
(17:17:02) LiHeng: so , xiuzhi ,please introduce me to him ;) 
(17:18:07) xiuzhi: LiHeng: no problem. 
(17:18:30) LiHeng: mhu: the time of config-loading is a big problem to startup 
(17:18:44) xiuzhi: LiHeng: mailinglist is a good place to discuss this 
(17:19:19) LiHeng: okay, today we have little time now:( 
(17:19:22) xiuzhi: and we can invite them attend this meeting if necessory, 
(17:19:45) LiHeng: xiuzhi: ok 
(17:20:53) LiHeng: mhu: we must find more and more configuration that is not nesseary on startup 
(17:21:10) yugq: LiHeng: I think config itself is complicate, they are several layers and every layer must be parsed and merge together. 
(17:21:39) mhu: okay, configmgr: yes, I think we already agreed that this is the best place to start. 
(17:22:18) mhu: and yes, also look at silly usage of configmgr, i.e. things loaded at startup that are not needed. 
(17:22:43) mhu: ...or thing loaded multiple times, like setup.xcu (?) 
(17:23:21) LiHeng: mhu:it's a detail for config, that a lots of configurations in OO, and most load on startup. so we must make a list that desc necessary items for startup 
(17:23:24) liangjun: LiHeng: use more thread do it. 
(17:23:48) mhu: ...and yes, configmgr is (overly) complicated; please try to find out what has been done / planned with cws "configmgrrefactor01" (or so). 
(17:24:07) yugq: mhu: OK. 
(17:24:18) LiHeng: mhu: thank you 
(17:24:46) mhu: ...that is "configrefactor01" as mentioned in wiki. 
(17:25:50) mhu: ...and if that work was not finished, it is probably worth that you look and try to finish that. 
(17:26:25) LiHeng: mhu: time is out, so i will send a timetable to discuss the recently works 
(17:26:52) mhu: okay, yes please send that via email. 
(17:27:22) LiHeng: okay, 
(17:27:32) LiHeng: xiuzhi: do you have more? 
(17:27:45) xiuzhi: LiHeng:no 
(17:28:00) xiuzhi: IMHO,we can close the meeting now 
(17:28:06) LiHeng: okay, 
(17:28:51) LiHeng: that all' 
(17:29:06) liangjun: :) 
(17:29:07) xiuzhi: bye all 
(17:29:08) LiHeng: bye 
(17:29:13) liangjun: bye 
(17:29:21) mhu: bye all, see you next week. 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/03/13==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/03/13 
Time: 16:26– 17:14 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:26:23) LiHeng: hello xiuzhi, 
(16:26:41) LiHeng: we miss you very much , 
(16:26:42) LiHeng: :) 
(16:28:05) xiuzhi: LiHeng:hello 
(16:28:15) xiuzhi: LiHeng:me too 
(16:29:39) mhu: Hi all 
(16:29:40) LiHeng: hi mhu 
(16:29:58) xiuzhi: mhu:morning 
(16:30:08) yugq: hi everyone! 
(16:30:17) mhu: xiuzhi: good afternoon 
(16:30:37) mhu: LiHeng: hi 
(16:30:58) LiHeng: hi 
(16:30:59) kuangl: hi 
(16:31:18) LiHeng: mhu:did you receive the agenda? 
(16:31:34) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I have read the agenda 
(16:31:56) mhu: it is okay for me 
(16:32:05) LiHeng: there is only a little topic today 
(16:32:07) LiHeng: :) 
(16:32:32) mhu: okay 
(16:32:47) LiHeng: because we just research the profile report 
(16:33:11) LiHeng: xiuzhi: do you have some you interesting ? 
(16:33:14) mhu: fine with me; don't stop working :-) 
(16:33:57) LiHeng: xiuzhi ? 
(16:33:59) xiuzhi: LiHeng: no more.. 
(16:34:23) LiHeng: okay, 1.Become the developer of OO to creating CWS for Performance project; 
(16:35:14) LiHeng: mhu: we will create the CWS for performance but yugq,kuangl,zenglj and me are not the developer of OO:( 
(16:35:39) LiHeng: mhu: which project we apply ? tools? 
(16:35:45) mhu: ah, now I see what you mean. 
(16:36:01) mhu: yes, I think the tools project would be just fine. 
(16:36:57) mhu: maybe xiuzhi can help here, with bridging between your redoffice developers and your OOo developers? 
(16:37:34) LiHeng: xiuzhi: we will apply to project owner immediately, please help us to become developer. 
(16:38:19) xiuzhi: mhu: only need the ability to create CWS 
(16:38:22) mhu: the project owner would be Martin Hollmichel, that should be no problem (you know him?) 
(16:38:46) xiuzhi: LiHeng: I will discuss this with Martin next Wednesday 
(16:39:57) mhu: if this is too late, maybe I could create a CWS here in Hamburg, and you check it out from Bejing? 
(16:40:09) LiHeng: xiuzhi:we need all ability of developer, we must maintain indepent CWS 
(16:40:30) xiuzhi: LiHeng: You can email Martin directly if you need it now 
(16:40:44) mhu: I think what is needed here is CVS commit rights 
(16:41:01) xiuzhi: mhu:sure 
(16:41:02) LiHeng: xiuzhi:okay , please give me his email adress 
(16:42:05) mhu: maybe I can help: Martin is "mh" at openoffice.org or "Martin.Hollmichel" at sun dot com. 
(16:42:06) xiuzhi: Martin.Hollmichel@Sun.COM 
(16:42:42) LiHeng: mhu:thank you very much 
(16:43:38) LiHeng: can we going to next topic? 
(16:44:32) LiHeng: 2.How to publish the CWS to the all developer who is interested in performace work? 
(16:45:41) mhu: do you mean access to the source code , or access to the installation sets built on that CWS? 
(16:45:51) LiHeng: xiuzhi:last week ,we discuss that we will create a CWS for all developer who is intersted in performance work, and maintain compile and testing in beijing 
(16:46:13) xiuzhi: LiHeng: great 
(16:47:29) LiHeng: mhu:yes, but they can also send idea to us ,and we make some change and send the report to him. 
(16:48:32) mhu: yes, that's what I understood; but my question was " A or B?" and you answer "yes" :-) 
(16:49:15) LiHeng: sorry A 
(16:49:24) mhu: okay, thanks :-) 
(16:49:27) LiHeng: i hope 
(16:50:12) mhu: so, access to source code should be easy, as long as you commit your changes on the CWS to the CVS branch (that's what a CWS is). 
(16:51:23) mhu: access to the installation sets from that CWS: I think you should ask Martin Hollmichel (again); there should be somewhere an "upload" area designed for such cases. 
(16:51:32) LiHeng: mhu: can we publish the CWS to other developer who is not member of performance 
(16:51:42) mhu: ...but I don't know exactly how it works. 
(16:52:15) mhu: LiHeng: sure, the CVS (and thus the CWS) is public; or what do you mean? 
(16:53:00) LiHeng: every developer can commit his change to any CWS? 
(16:53:21) mhu: ah, now I understand your question... 
(16:53:48) mhu: ...yes, in principle that's possible, but by convention nobody does that. 
(16:54:03) mhu: ...except he is invited to do so. 
(16:55:17) LiHeng: so ,we need some methods to get more suggestion, optimizing idea and issue
(16:55:45) mhu: yes, that is probably the most interesting part. 
(16:57:59) LiHeng: first , we can only send message to mailinglist , explain our purpose OF CWS 
(16:59:22) mhu: ...yes, and explain your offer to host the CWS and do the analysis and do the testing. 
(17:00:39) mhu: you could sent a message to more than one mailing list: performance@tools.ooo but also dev@tools.ooo and dev@ooo. 
(17:00:57) LiHeng: mhu:yes , but we can select servral suggestion from wiki and try to change it no that CWS , and report to all 
(17:00:59) mhu: that way you would reach a much wider audience. 
(17:01:28) mhu: LiHeng: yes, of course. You can start with any idea that you already have. 
(17:01:33) LiHeng: mhu: i see 
(17:02:48) LiHeng: xiuzhi: do you have some idea for that? 
(17:03:22) xiuzhi: LiHeng: mhu's advice is enough for the first step 
(17:03:35) LiHeng: :) 
(17:04:24) LiHeng: that all 
(17:04:38) LiHeng: no more topic for me ,today, 
(17:04:39) mhu: okay 
(17:05:27) LiHeng: mhu:thank you a lots 
(17:06:00) mhu: LiHeng: you're welcome 
(17:06:45) mhu: one thing left... 
(17:06:53) LiHeng: please 
(17:07:28) mhu: I am out a long Easter Holiday next Thursday (20.3.) through Tuesday (25.3.) inclusive. 
(17:08:05) mhu: so, I won't be available next Thursday; shall we have our meeting earlier, say on Wednesday? 
(17:08:59) LiHeng: no problem for me, xiuzhi maybe have another meeting 
(17:09:36) LiHeng: xiuzhi:can you attend? 
(17:09:54) xiuzhi: LiHeng:yes. I will have one. how about cancel it if we have no more urgent thing to discuss 
(17:11:02) LiHeng: mhu: we just analyize profile data now, maybe we cancel the meeting next week, ... 
(17:11:03) mhu: you could send email for urgent things, and we could simply cancel the meeting. 
(17:11:36) mhu: LiHeng: okay, then see you Thursday in 2 weeks. 
(17:11:49) LiHeng: and we send some result to you for meeting on Mar 27th 
(17:11:58) mhu: okay, fine. 
(17:12:20) LiHeng: ;) 
(17:13:09) xiuzhi: mhu:have a good holiday! 
(17:13:23) LiHeng: mhu:have a good time. 
(17:13:24) mhu: xiuzhi: thanks 
(17:13:37) mhu: thank you all, good bye then. 
(17:13:44) LiHeng: bye 
(17:13:47) xiuzhi: bye all 
(17:13:54) mhu: bye 
(17:13:54) yugq: mhu: have a good holiday 
(17:13:56) yugq: bye 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/03/06==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/03/06 
Time: 16:38– 17:36 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:41:59) LiHeng: hello, how are you today 
(16:42:26) yugq: fine 
(16:42:31) yugq: :) 
(16:42:50) yugq: where is mhu? 
(16:43:11) LiHeng: i don't know, maybe late 
(16:43:37) LiHeng: did you receive the agenda? 
(16:43:46) yugq: yes 
(16:44:15) yugq: you sent it to our local net 
(16:44:43) yugq: we got it from zengliangjun 
(16:44:49) LiHeng: mail server just do it 
(16:46:14) yugq: mhu: hi
(16:46:15) mhu: hi all, sorry for being soooo late... 
(16:46:24) LiHeng: hi mhu:) 
(16:46:49) kuangliang: hi mhu 
(16:46:53) yugq: +LiHeng 
(16:47:03) mhu: ...to avoid the time pressure I had last week, I tried something new, which turned out to be even worse :-( 
(16:47:27) liangjun: Hi mhu:) 
(16:47:36) LiHeng: mhu:never mind 
(16:47:42) mhu: ...I got stu k in a traffic jam, instead of making our call from home. 
(16:48:10) mhu: LiHeng: okay, I've read your agenda; looks okay to me. 
(16:48:35) LiHeng: okay , go! 
(16:48:45) LiHeng: Some idea to optimize OO during testing of OO2.3.1 
(16:48:57) LiHeng: yugq:please:) 
(16:50:33) yugq: From the profile data, we know there are many hotspot in configmgr. And I think we can do something to find out wether it is optimize enough. 
(16:51:34) yugq: mhu: Did someone do something on optimize configmgr before? 
(16:52:14) mhu: yugq: yes, that sounds interesting. I think, some work already went into configmgr, but that may not yet be enough. So, yes, please go ahead. 
(16:53:37) LiHeng: mhu:optimizing of XML analysis maybe rise speed up both configmgr and document load/save 
(16:54:15) mhu: I know of some work that Novell engineers together with Stephan Bergmann (Sun Hamburg) did / wanted to do to refactor configmgr... 
(16:55:00) mhu: ...to make the code simple and e.g. optimize away some of the excessive mutex locking. 
(16:55:08) yugq: ... In configmgr, we use some data structure to manage heap and cache, generally STL::Map. Something like a name string maps a heap location, etc. 
(16:55:31) mhu: LiHeng: yes, XML optimization would be a good field, indeed. 
(16:56:12) yugq: Some classes are wrapped for times and the member functions in it are simple, but they comsume time. 
(16:56:31) mhu: yugq: yes, some of those constructs are more complicated than needed. 
(16:58:00) mhu: I think, configmgr is a good start to work on. But be sure to check with Stephan Bergmann (SB) first, on what has already been done / what's already in the pipeline by others. 
(16:59:06) LiHeng: mhu: ok ,and what you know some work of XML analysis? 
(16:59:42) yugq: Many simple classes use Opaque pointers to isolate the viration, and maybe it needn't I think. This makes a lot of unnecessary operations and also a lot of small heap objects. 
(17:00:20) mhu: Also, I think some of the time that configmgr needs is due to clients of configmgr reading data that they might not need during startup, or that could better be organized somehow different than currently. Just an idea. 
(17:01:32) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I think you are right with looking at XML analysis. When something can be improved there, it will benefit both configmgr and document load. 
(17:02:04) LiHeng: great , "load in time" is good method for large software system 
(17:02:07) mhu: LiHeng: no, I currently don't know of any work on XML speed. 
(17:03:00) mhu: LiHeng: with "load in time" you mean "load when needed, not earlier" ? Yes, that's true. 
(17:03:38) LiHeng: mhu: yes , my teacher call it "slow release" 
(17:03:42) LiHeng: ;)' 
(17:03:50) mhu: :-) 
(17:05:04) yugq: I just told some detail about configmgr right now. And I will keep on working on configmgr this days. 
(17:06:57) mhu: yugq: yes, I think that's good. As I said, when you need more details, please ask Stefan Bergmann (sb@openoffice.org). 
(17:07:19) yugq: mhu: OK. Thanks:) 
(17:07:20) LiHeng: mhu: we want to create 2 CWSs for testing result of optimizing idea, that can do all test work in Beijing, so all developers in OO , can try his idea for performance. What do you think about it ? 
(17:08:38) mhu: LiHeng: Good idea that all developers can test it. What do you mean with "2 CWS" ? So far we have only talked about configmgr? 
(17:10:12) LiHeng: One for configmgr and xml analysis, other for some idea from other developer like Michael Meeks and Malte .... 
(17:11:04) LiHeng: mhu:i read lots of wiki page , there are lots of idea, but mark (lots to do);) 
(17:11:11) mhu: oh, have you asked them whether they want / have time to contribute? 
(17:11:48) mhu: LiHeng: yes, more ideas than people to do them, unfortunately. 
(17:12:52) LiHeng: so , some people maybe have no time to do , but another side ,they need test for idea, 
(17:13:12) LiHeng: ch2000 can do all test for those CWS:) 
(17:14:14) LiHeng: if anybody want to do some change for performance, he can do it , and we can return him testing result 
(17:14:51) mhu: okay, now I understand. Yes, good idea to offer the testing. I think that will be well received. 
(17:15:24) LiHeng: this way , i hope more and more people would be join;) 
(17:15:38) mhu: yes, that may well be. 
(17:16:00) LiHeng: right , go next :To decide a version (maybe a dev-version) that we can do optimizing before "code freeze". 
(17:17:20) mhu: yes, current master version is on "DEV300" code line, I think milestone "m1"? (that would then be tag "DEV300_m1"). 
(17:18:05) LiHeng: mhu:which release based on this version? 
(17:18:09) mhu: the DEV300 code line is for OOo 3.x, first release will be 3.0 Beta, then 3.0 (RC), then 3.1 , ... 
(17:19:22) LiHeng: i heard 3.x will be release at next month, surely? 
(17:19:31) mhu: "SRC680_m248" (or similar, need to look) was identical to "DEV300_m0". 
(17:20:23) mhu: 3.0 Beta is currently targeted for April, yes. I don't have the exact dates right now. 
(17:21:11) LiHeng: okay, first we try to change a little, 
(17:22:27) mhu: ...I think, the schedule is in the wiki (somewhere), maybe xiuzhi knows. (by the way, is xiuzhi well, no longer joining our meeting?) 
(17:23:02) LiHeng: mhu:he have some trouble , 
(17:23:27) mhu: LiHeng: oh, sorry to hear that. 
(17:24:18) LiHeng: so he can't come to company on Thursday for three work 
(17:24:44) LiHeng: sorry weeks 
(17:25:00) mhu: okay, understood. Thanks. 
(17:25:24) mhu: From last week: I talked to Malte... 
(17:26:34) mhu: ... he siad, he has not received an email form you, and kindly asks you to again send an email and ask for the CWS performance test tools. He will then take care to help you. 
(17:26:44) mhu: s/siad/said/ 
(17:27:28) LiHeng: i send another email to Malte the day before yesterday , he has already replied me today, 
(17:28:04) LiHeng: and he told me , he already prepare some test for Beijing 
(17:28:21) LiHeng: and will send to me later 
(17:28:34) LiHeng: but no source code:( 
(17:30:12) mhu: okay, I talked to him on Tuesday. Please give him a few more days, maybe he needs to prepare something. Then we can ask again whether there is a problem, and if yes, how to solve that. 
(17:31:41) LiHeng: thank you, we really want to get source code to make better tools for all developers 
(17:31:54) mhu: perhaps it helps, if he hears about your idea to do the testing for performance related cws'es in Beijng. 
(17:32:18) mhu: yes, understood. 
(17:32:52) LiHeng: that's all for me 
(17:33:10) mhu: I think, that's all from me as well. 
(17:33:16) yugq: me too. 
(17:33:27) liangju1: yes I'm 
(17:34:02) kuangliang: me too 
(17:34:08) mhu: thank you for your patience when being so late. See you next thursday. 
(17:34:25) yugq: see you:) 
(17:34:26) kuangliang: see you 
(17:34:28) liangju1: bye 
(17:34:48) LiHeng: mhu:thank you for your help, and maybe we can meet in OO.o conference 2008:) 
(17:35:12) mhu: yes, I hope to be in Bejing for the conference :-) 
(17:35:20) yugq: Beijing (China) 597 Orvieto (Italy) 126 Amsterdam (The Netherlands) 62 Bratislava (Slovakia) 56 Budapest (Hungary) 50 Dundalk (Ireland) 22 So the OpenOffice.org Annual Conference 2008 has been awarded to the team proposing Beijing, China. 
(17:35:47) LiHeng: okay , bye:) 
(17:35:50) mhu: yes, congratulations. that was a clear result, wasn't it? 
(17:36:05) mhu: okay, bye all 
(17:36:10) liangju1: :) 
(17:36:12) yugq: bye. 
(17:36:14) kuangliang: bye 
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[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 04

2010-03-17T23:13:08Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/04/24==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/04/24 
Time: 15:57– 16:34 
Meeting No.: 
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Agenda: 
(15:57:02) LiHeng: please check mail:) 
(15:57:26) LiHeng: i forgot to forward to you 
(15:58:39) liangjun: oh. I don't receive it . 
(15:59:15) LiHeng: again:) 
(16:00:44) mhu: Hi all. 
(16:01:00) liangjun: mhu: Hello 
(16:01:12) LiHeng: hi,mhu 
(16:02:37) LiHeng: mhu:because we are just designing the new Configmgr so we have a few topics to discuss 
(16:02:50) kuangliang: hi,mhu 
(16:03:04) LiHeng: mhu:did you receive the "weekly report"? 
(16:03:12) mhu: Yes, I have received your weekly report. Looks god. Thanks. 
(16:03:35) mhu: s/god/good/ 
(16:03:38) LiHeng: ;) 
(16:03:42) mhu: :-) 
(16:04:28) LiHeng: i have 2 small tipocs, do you have more? 
(16:05:41) mhu: No, nothing more. 
(16:06:15) LiHeng: ok , let's start with "Naming CWS for our ConfigMgr improving" 
(16:06:45) mhu: Except, maybe, I have read that you received from Malte the CWS performance test code (?) 
(16:07:25) mhu: So, are you now able to perform these tests yourself ? 
(16:07:35) LiHeng: no code , test case and data only 
(16:08:08) mhu: ah, okay. Do those test cases and data help ? 
(16:08:12) LiHeng: we are just try to run them on our CWS in Beijing 
(16:08:21) mhu: okay, good. 
(16:08:57) mhu: that' all I had. 
(16:09:13) LiHeng: In second tipoc we want to discuss some about tools set;) 
(16:09:23) mhu: okay... 
(16:09:54) LiHeng: mhu:we want to create new CWS after 5-1 holiday 
(16:10:26) mhu: okay 
(16:10:37) LiHeng: so, please you name it , our first CWS 
(16:11:10) mhu: oh really? Give me a few seconds.... 
(16:11:40) LiHeng: a CWS for impove Configmgr :) 
(16:11:54) mhu: oh yes, that's what I thought. 
(16:12:42) mhu: so, maybe something with "configmgr" and "tuning" in it? 
(16:13:21) mhu: or maybe "configcache" ? 
(16:13:26) mhu: or ... ? 
(16:14:08) LiHeng: "configcachetuning" maybe so long 
(16:14:14) mhu: maybe we can also include your ideas for a name ? 
(16:14:49) yug1: configtuning 
(16:15:46) mhu: yes, "configtuning" sounds fine for me; maybe add "01" ? 
(16:16:08) mhu: maybe, you do more CWS for configmgr ? 
(16:16:42) LiHeng: maybe we start from "00" , C style ;) 
(16:16:53) mhu: :-) 
(16:17:00) yug1: :-D 
(16:17:19) mhu: I am still thinking FORTRAN, I guess :-) 
(16:17:32) liangjun: :) 
(16:18:16) mhu: yes, "configtuning" is general enough to cover almost all changes that you want to apply to configmgr. 
(16:18:51) LiHeng: ok, CWS "configtuining00" will be opening soon for Combine Cache files and make a dynamic index :) 
(16:20:05) LiHeng: now , 2 Define tools set for OO evaluation. 
(16:21:32) LiHeng: For a long time, we think about collection a set of tools for OO evaluation like Malte give us, 
(16:21:55) LiHeng: and document manaul for them 
(16:23:20) LiHeng: and that let anyone who interest in performance of OO can be start easily 
(16:24:05) LiHeng: mhu:do you think OO.o need it? 
(16:25:34) mhu: sorry, I needed to answer a local question; now I'm back again... 
(16:26:35) mhu: so, performance tests and documentation needed? yes, it think it would be used, if people know about it and can understand how to use it. 
(16:26:36) LiHeng: mhu:that maybe a chain of tools depoly , getting raw data , anlysis to report 
(16:27:20) mhu: yes, that's probably a chain of tools, you are right. 
(16:28:44) LiHeng: now, we only use profile tools, and some tools like Malte give us or Andrew published, 
(16:29:16) LiHeng: do you have some experience 
(16:29:17) LiHeng: ? 
(16:29:39) mhu: hmmm... 
(16:30:40) LiHeng: i want to develop a tool with ODF and OO too view raw data and compare in more viewpoint 
(16:30:42) mhu: for real code analysis, I think there is nothing better, than what you already know how to use; these tools (like valgrind) produce the data, and you analyze it (manually). 
(16:32:15) mhu: for automated measurement of performance characteristics (like startup time), the tooling that Malte provided is one way to measure and detect systematic differences (automated). 
(16:33:32) mhu: data like those that Andrew (Z (?)) published, mostly cannot be reproduced, as it is ususally not known how they where produced; usually you need to re-do those experiments yourself (manually) 
(16:34:31) LiHeng: as making raw data ,we can't do more now ,but we can create some analysis and report system to storage raw data and compare them 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/04/17==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/04/17 
Time: 15:57– 16:56 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(15:57:58) LiHeng: :-) 
(15:58:02) LiHeng: ;) 
(16:04:29) LiHeng: we are ready:) 
(16:05:17) yugq: :) 
(16:05:29) liangjun: :)we are not receive the mail ? 
(16:06:54) LiHeng: which mail? cws test or matthias? 
(16:08:46) liangjun: today subject 
(16:09:30) LiHeng: hi mhu! 
(16:09:32) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being late; got stuck in the Hamburg morning traffic :-( 
(16:10:20) LiHeng: Beijing is in same status, maybe more heavy than Hamburg:) 
(16:10:47) LiHeng: Did you receive the mail from us, yesterday? 
(16:11:57) mhu: From what I heard, Bejing traffice is indeed more heavy that in Hamburg. 
(16:12:10) mhu: And yes, I've got your email yesterday. 
(16:12:27) yugq: mhu:hello! 
(16:12:39) mhu: I have not yet looked into the zip file, but only read your proposal. 
(16:12:47) mhu: hi yugq 
(16:13:04) liangjun: mhu:hello! 
(16:13:45) mhu: hi liangjun 
(16:13:56) kuangliang: mhu:hi 
(16:14:02) mhu: hi kuangliang 
(16:14:29) LiHeng: mhu:we check CWS Configrefractor01, and find michaels remove Heapmanager and impoving startup 
(16:15:05) mhu: Yes, and did it improve startup ? 
(16:16:14) LiHeng: but we are just proving that may not be effective for other time , load/save and ... 
(16:16:52) LiHeng: mhu:yes, on debug version ,we testing , 2 seconds up 
(16:16:53) mhu: LiHeng: I also received your email with attached zi file; so I don't need to download from your ftp server (hopefully). 
(16:18:03) mhu: yes, that is no improvement for other xml related slowness; but good to hear that it improves things; in particular, the code should now be easier to change. 
(16:19:30) LiHeng: mhu:yes , michael make code simpler , you can see it in we report 
(16:21:00) LiHeng: mhu:and that, we discuss configmgr in 2.4.1 and want to improve it in other sides 
(16:21:26) LiHeng: 1/Combine "Cache Data" to less files, and that reduce file I/O when searching in config 
(16:21:30) LiHeng: 1.Combine "Cache Data" to less files, and that reduce file I/O when searching in config 
(16:21:56) LiHeng: 2.Create dynamic index to cache some config-node in the every Component that usually needed 
(16:22:31) mhu: @1) yes, a better combination of the cache files sounds like a good idea. 
(16:23:10) LiHeng: we are just comparing configmgr beteewn 2.3.1 and 2.4 
(16:24:30) LiHeng: we hope to make configmgr to be evaluated independently 
(16:24:42) LiHeng: he is down 
(16:24:43) LiHeng: :( 
(16:25:06) liangjun: :) 
(16:26:35) mhu: sorry, my gaim / pidgin just crashed... did I miss something in the last two minutes ? 
(16:27:36) liangjun: (4:24:07 PM) mhu left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). 
(16:27:37) liangjun: (4:24:31 PM) LiHeng: we hope to make configmgr to be evaluated independently 
(16:27:51) LiHeng: liangjun:thank you 
(16:28:14) LiHeng: mhu:and that, we discuss configmgr in 2.4.1 and want to improve it in other sides 
(16:28:34) LiHeng: we are just comparing configmgr beteewn 2.3.1 and 2.4 
(16:28:43) LiHeng: we hope to make configmgr to be evaluated independently 
(16:30:28) LiHeng: for example , if configure size larger and larger , we want to we can calculate speed of loading/initializing of configmgr 
(16:31:12) mhu: okay, let me summarize what I understand... 
(16:32:01) mhu: you want to improve configmgr separately from other (xml related) improvements 
(16:32:30) LiHeng: yes;) 
(16:32:39) mhu: then also improve xml loading saving for documents (and again also for configmgr). 
(16:32:56) mhu: okay, thanks. Yes, I think that is a good plan. 
(16:33:42) mhu: I also think, that the 2 points in your proposal are fine 
(16:34:20) mhu: that is, (1) cache files and (2) cache nodes 
(16:35:36) mhu: I think, what each application (e.g. writer) needs from config, is spread over multiple config files / nodes, so caching / reorganizing in memory makes sense, I think. 
(16:36:11) LiHeng: Yes ,because Michael remove the HeapManager, when some config value use frequently, maybe have slowly process 
(16:37:37) LiHeng: we are still in process to determine effect 
(16:39:00) LiHeng: we have a idea, that cache node in Component level 
(16:39:17) LiHeng: not only , base layer 
(16:39:25) mhu: I think, some of this caching of nodes is also done in helper classes (in svtools ?) ConfigItem, and derived SvtXXXOptions classes. 
(16:40:06) LiHeng: :)we have a idea, that cache node in Component level, ie in SW , SC, SD every module 
(16:40:38) LiHeng: because , a lot of Config use by only one module 
(16:41:54) LiHeng: and that we and estimate relatively index (key), and search in short path 
(16:44:05) mhu: yes, I think that is a good idea; part of it looks similar to ConfigItem / SvtXXXOptions helper classes; you should probably look into these as well ( how they work and how they are used). 
(16:44:58) LiHeng: okay, we will research that and make a report to you 
(16:45:47) LiHeng: we can discuss again based that report :) 
(16:47:17) LiHeng: and we can recompile the config to short keyname for private index format to improve memory using and searching-time 
(16:47:42) mhu: okay, thanks. (here is a hopefully better hint, for example: svtools/source/config/pathoptions.cxx) 
(16:48:13) mhu: and yes, your idea may be better than what is there now :-) 
(16:48:47) LiHeng: we are just proving it 
(16:50:33) LiHeng: By the way, from this week we will make a weekly report of Wiki, mailinglist, projects about performance improving and important point in IRC 
(16:51:05) LiHeng: and send it to you every Tuesday 
(16:52:49) LiHeng: if you want to discuss some topics please send mail to us , we and talk about it on IRC Thursday 
(16:53:50) mhu: okay, that sounds good; and yes, I should respond more to your emails... 
(16:54:32) mhu: I just read (in parallel to our discussion) your summary document (ConfigContrast.odt). Looks good. 
(16:54:53) mhu: And no, otherwise I don't have more for today. 
(16:55:05) LiHeng: no for me, others? 
(16:55:15) yugq: no for me. 
(16:55:19) mhu: I look into the cachegrind data sometime later (maybe tomorrow). 
(16:55:37) kuangliang: no for me 
(16:55:53) LiHeng: okay, see you next Thursday 
(16:55:54) liangjun: no for me 
(16:56:08) mhu: okay, see you Thursday. Bye all. 
(16:56:12) LiHeng: Bye 
(16:56:12) kuangliang: bye 
(16:56:14) yugq: Bye. 
(16:56:15) liangjun: bye 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/04/08==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/04/08 
Time: 15:53– 17:27 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(15:53:49) yugq: mhu:hi! 
(15:54:28) mhu: hi, yugq. 
(16:21:34) LiHeng: hi, all 
(16:21:53) kuangl: hi 
(16:31:10) LiHeng: mhu:xiuzhi can't attend meeting today, he is participating in the meeting IDF (Intel Developer Forum '08) 
(16:32:06) liangjun: hello 
(16:34:06) mhu: Hi all. 
(16:34:12) liangjun: :) 
(16:34:13) LiHeng: mhu:xiuzhi can't attend meeting today, he is participating in the meeting IDF (Intel Developer Forum '08) 
(16:34:56) mhu: LiHeng: Ah, yes. I've already heard of the IDF (which historically was in California). 
(16:35:37) mhu: First, something procedural... 
(16:36:17) mhu: In Germany there is now "daylight savings time", i.e. it's already one hour later than last week... 
(16:36:56) mhu: Can I propose that we shift our meeting to 30min earlier? Would that help you also? 
(16:37:18) LiHeng: yes , of cause 
(16:37:58) mhu: okay, thanks. that helps avoiding conflicts with other meetings. 
(16:38:21) LiHeng: "course" ,sorry 
(16:38:48) LiHeng: on problem;) 
(16:39:05) LiHeng: begin from agenda? 
(16:39:15) mhu: yes, I'm ready to start 
(16:39:34) LiHeng: 1.discuss about loading-time of configuration 
(16:40:26) mhu: yes ? 
(16:40:29) LiHeng: we need your some help to decide Novell working and its result 
(16:40:43) yugq: mhu: Can we join in Michel Meeks' work and do something? 
(16:40:51) mhu: okay, how can I help? 
(16:41:58) mhu: Last time we talked about this "configrefactor01" CWS; is this what Novell did? 
(16:41:59) LiHeng: mhu:yugq has review the change from Novell , but it has not more effective 
(16:42:41) LiHeng: yugq:please,tell us what you think 
(16:44:51) yugq: I saw what mhu mentioned last meeting about "configmgr" in wiki page. And their refactor trial seems not effective enough. 
(16:45:41) yugq: Only less than one second achieve. 
(16:46:22) mhu: yugq: "effective enough" meaning "no improvement in performance", or "code no easier to understand" ? 
(16:46:46) mhu: okay, understood... 
(16:46:54) yugq: I mean "no improvement in performance". 
(16:46:57) yugq: :) 
(16:47:33) LiHeng: now , improve one second on startup 
(16:47:35) mhu: but I think, 1 second can already be a lot of time :-) 
(16:48:02) yugq: Maybe. 
(16:48:20) mhu: but, my main question would be: Is the code now easier to understand, and easier to change than it was before? 
(16:49:40) LiHeng: Meeks is going to impove several change too. 
(16:50:00) mhu: also, if the code is better to understand, and is also faster by one second, this is definitely a change that I would like to see integrated into the main codeline. 
(16:50:32) mhu: LiHeng: what does Michael do, can you explain? 
(16:50:49) yugq: They use berkeley DB instead of small XMLS, and have more unify interface I think. 
(16:51:27) mhu: yeah, I dont want Berkeley DB; what is it about the interface? 
(16:52:12) LiHeng: mhu: a few interfaces changed ,now 
(16:53:06) mhu: are we talking about "configrefctor01" ? 
(16:53:24) mhu: s/refctor/refactor/ 
(16:54:14) LiHeng: parts of it, and some other changes we want to put into OO:) 
(16:56:51) yugq: mhu: I find a mail in OOo.org by Michel Meeks. He mentioned a "configmgr refactor" resolvent. I want to know if his resolvent been put into office now. 
(16:57:02) yugq: http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=17932 
(16:57:17) mhu: I just looked up "configrefactor01" in EIS: it has already been integrated into 680m238. 
(16:57:46) mhu: ...that should be in OOo2.4, I think. 
(16:59:00) LiHeng: mhu:yes, but we think configmgr would be simply more, 
(17:00:15) mhu: LiHeng: "simply more," ? 
(17:00:34) LiHeng: that can help to make the standard on code of all developers 
(17:01:08) mhu: sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. 
(17:01:32) mhu: ...can you say it again in other words, please? 
(17:01:33) LiHeng: now, all modules use the registery and configmgr to get and set some values 
(17:01:57) mhu: yes 
(17:02:46) LiHeng: and format of configuration has changed serveral times, but 
(17:03:17) mhu: yes 
(17:03:51) LiHeng: some changes for process, and others for some reasons we don't know 
(17:04:17) LiHeng: and that was unclarfiy for all developers 
(17:05:04) mhu: configuration format changes? 
(17:05:38) LiHeng: so , everyone build a map of configmge usage 
(17:06:35) LiHeng: configure-format has been changed in some version 641 and later version 
(17:07:29) mhu: the xml format has not changed, as far as I know; it has only been extended compatibly... 
(17:07:55) mhu: but, 641 is hundred years ago :-) ( ooo 1.0) 
(17:08:07) LiHeng: ;) 
(17:08:55) LiHeng: but , some function build earlier than 641 
(17:09:49) mhu: I'm very sorry, but I'm still not sure I understand what you are talking about; 641 is not relevant, I think. 
(17:10:35) LiHeng: sorry too , for my english:) 
(17:10:44) mhu: and yes, much code is 10 -- 15 years old. 
(17:10:55) mhu: LiHeng: no, it's not your english... 
(17:11:24) mhu: ...I don't know what you think, but I can hear what you say. 
(17:11:46) LiHeng: i will send a mail ,that include some samples from us, 
(17:12:07) yugq: LiHeng: maybe I need more discussion in Beijing. 
(17:12:20) yugq: We need. Sorry. 
(17:12:27) mhu: okay; I'm sure there are many places in configmgr that can be further improved. 
(17:12:49) LiHeng: by the way, did you receive a email from me , that explain XML process improvement we want 
(17:13:01) mhu: Please try to explain to me what you think; I really like to understand. 
(17:13:24) mhu: Yes, sorry; I received the email, but didn't find time to answer. 
(17:13:58) LiHeng: never mind, 
(17:14:10) LiHeng: i just you know i want 
(17:14:30) LiHeng: but , we are just making a proposal, 
(17:14:34) mhu: and yes, I think your idea is good (lazy dom); maybe microsoft xml parser has similar functionality. 
(17:15:19) LiHeng: becouse , some job from RedOffice i need more time to finish it 
(17:15:56) LiHeng: YES MS parser has some features for lazy dom, 
(17:15:56) mhu: same for me here: I also have another project that takes much of my time. 
(17:16:36) LiHeng: i will take all time for Performance from next week 
(17:16:54) LiHeng: :0 
(17:16:57) LiHeng: :) 
(17:17:10) mhu: that is good; I need to share my time between the two projects. 
(17:18:04) LiHeng: okay, that all for first topic 
(17:18:19) LiHeng: we do next shortly 
(17:18:31) LiHeng: 2.Make a timetable for improvement in XML I/O 
(17:19:35) LiHeng: i know OO3.o was freeze 
(17:19:57) LiHeng: freezing 
(17:20:30) LiHeng: So, i want to know what time 3.1 will freezing 
(17:20:59) mhu: yes, according to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease30 code freeze for 3.0beta is tomorrow. 
(17:21:14) mhu: but I don't have a link for 3.1 
(17:21:28) mhu: but... 
(17:21:33) LiHeng: we need 3 or 4 months to improve XML 
(17:21:58) yugq: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OOoRelease31 
(17:22:02) mhu: that is code freeze for 3.0 beta only, not the final 3.0 release. 
(17:23:00) mhu: aha, yes; thanks yugq, that link makes sense. 
(17:23:08) LiHeng: so we want know which version we can change 
(17:23:18) yugq: ;-) 
(17:23:26) mhu: probably that is a good timetable, to target 3.1 then. 
(17:24:09) LiHeng: yes, we can plan our feature now , thanks 
(17:24:52) mhu: good. 
(17:25:00) LiHeng: that all 
(17:25:10) LiHeng: mhu: do you hava more 
(17:25:11) LiHeng: ? 
(17:25:14) mhu: I don't have more also 
(17:25:42) LiHeng: yes i mail configuration sample next Monday 
(17:25:51) mhu: then, 30min earlier from next week on? 
(17:26:06) mhu: yes, please send me an email; I promise to answer :-) 
(17:26:17) LiHeng: yes , 16:00 for beijing 
(17:26:28) yugq: OK. 
(17:26:29) mhu: 10:00 for hamburg 
(17:26:35) LiHeng: ;) 
(17:26:49) liangjun: :) 
(17:26:49) LiHeng: bye 
(17:26:56) mhu: okay, bye all 
(17:26:56) liangjun: bye 
(17:27:01) yugq: bye all. 
(17:27:06) kuangl: bye 

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[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 05

2010-03-17T23:13:03Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/05/22==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/05/22 
Time: 16:04– 15:02 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:04:26) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being late (traffic again) 
(16:04:36) yugq: hi 
(16:04:38) kuangl: hello 
(16:04:44) liangjun: mhu: hello 
(16:05:19) LiHeng: mhu:hello 
(16:07:31) LiHeng: mhu:did you receive the mail of agenda and weekly report? 
(16:09:47) mhu: sorry, yes I received your email (I was just looking it up). 
(16:10:26) LiHeng: do you have some topics to discuss? 
(16:11:58) mhu: Not more than you already suggested; the MID looks interesting... 
(16:12:34) LiHeng: BenQ will sale thire MID in Eurpean 
(16:13:00) LiHeng: first maybe Italic 
(16:13:43) mhu: yes, I have heard rumours of this 
(16:13:56) LiHeng: but OO in MID is slow 
(16:15:14) LiHeng: Okay, we start from "Details of configtuining00 design", yugq and liangjun will talk about details of configtuning00 
(16:15:18) mhu: yes, I can imagine that; do you have a (detailed) machine specification (cpufreq, memory, disk, ...) 
(16:15:36) mhu: okay, yes lets start with cws... 
(16:15:47) yugq: liangjun: please. 
(16:16:22) LiHeng: mhu:yes, I will send specification to you 
(16:16:26) LiHeng: ;) 
(16:16:47) mhu: LiHeng: okay, thanks
(16:19:10) yugq: OK, we want to refactor the configmgr completly. The main idea is to move some layer-merge-operation before application runtime. 
(16:22:14) mhu: okay, I think we talked about this last time... 
(16:22:16) yugq: re-construct the layer data struct using our simpler file format. and we will offer some tool to convert the file between which is used now and the new style file. 
(16:23:41) mhu: I think you can do that, as long as you maintain the possibility to have multiple layers (e.g. a branding layer in addition to a share and a user layer). 
(16:24:15) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(16:24:41) yugq: and another idea is to merge the ini files. 
(16:25:11) mhu: I think I understood last time, that you wanted to store the merged result in the users merged layer / home directory. ? 
(16:25:57) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(16:26:06) mhu: If stored in the users home directory, what size of the merged data (per user) do you expect? 
(16:27:03) mhu: so, what i mean is: the size that is now used once (share) is then used for every user. 
(16:27:36) yugq: mhu: actually, the size is almost the same with we using now. 
(16:28:08) liangjun: mhu: I think the result of the default data merged to the share directory. and when user first use OO, we will copy the result to user home . 
(16:28:13) mhu: but then times the number of users, instead of only once? or you mean the user-cache? 
(16:28:39) yugq: because the share layer data is in the form of cache file in the user home directory. 
(16:28:41) mhu: ...user-cache instead of shared xml? 
(16:29:10) mhu: okay, understood. you are right, I forgot about the current cache. Good :-) 
(16:29:21) yugq: ;-) 
(16:29:43) mhu: okay, size is no problem then. 
(16:30:01) liangjun: en ? 
(16:30:11) liangjun: :) 
(16:30:30) mhu: so, what about access control to elements that are marked "final" in the now "share" layer? How would that be maintained? 
(16:30:36) LiHeng: shared xml for creating new users, and user-caching for search , modify, and ... at runtime 
(16:30:42) yugq: and we will re-designed the xml file to a more effective style. 
(16:31:42) mhu: as long as you maintain the logical structure (hierarchy of nodes), I think you can divide that up into different files on disk, yes. 
(16:32:38) yugq: mhu: do you mean the default readonly data? 
(16:32:52) mhu: yes, for example readonly data. 
(16:33:21) LiHeng: mhu:more ndividual files maybe cause lots of I/O 
(16:33:29) mhu: but some things might be "locked" by an administrator (security setting e.g.) 
(16:33:50) liangjun: oh , I than we can set the attribute to identifier the data that is added or removed and the default data 
(16:33:58) mhu: LIHeng: yes understood, number of files that need to be read is an issue 
(16:34:04) LiHeng: sorry ndividual/individual 
(16:34:05) liangjun: than/ thank 
(16:35:04) LiHeng: yes, we want to reduce user-caching files 
(16:35:39) yugq: data in share layer and user layer are seperated. and when run the application, user layer works and the modification to config data only affect the user layer. 
(16:36:06) mhu: yugq: yes, that is how it is today, right? 
(16:36:23) yugq: mhu: i think yes. 
(16:37:03) mhu: okay, so how do you think you can maintain this property that the user cannot change some configuration data items? 
(16:37:59) yugq: user can maitain the configuration data, but it is in user layer. 
(16:38:14) mhu: I fact, my question is not really fair, because with todays cache, there is a theoretical method that the user can binary edit the config. 
(16:38:44) yugq: Every user has it's own user data, and maintain the data of their own. 
(16:38:54) mhu: yes, but... 
(16:39:20) LiHeng: mhu:if some item is about security setting ,we can separate them to another files 
(16:39:31) mhu: ...what I mean is a security hole: user shall not (and cannot change share layer)... 
(16:39:58) mhu: ...if that is merged / cached and stored in the users home directory ... 
(16:39:59) yugq: mhu: I see what you mean ... 
(16:40:27) mhu: ...the user can change the data, even though an admisnstrator thinks he cannot do that. 
(16:41:21) mhu: okay, but as I said, in realilty we have this problem today already with the cache. 
(16:41:56) yugq: mhu: yes. 
(16:42:58) mhu: and, if at all possible, we should design something that does not have this problem. 
(16:43:12) LiHeng: mhu: In my opinion, if we don't want user to modify some config, we must create files which they don't have promissions 
(16:43:15) yugq: mhu: and is this security hole serious? 
(16:44:08) liangjun: I thank we can split some data about the security to new role ? 
(16:44:11) mhu: well, I know of some customers ("paranoid" customers) which think this is a serious issue. 
(16:44:12) yugq: we did not consider this before.:P 
(16:44:48) mhu: yugq: no problem, the designer of the current cache also did not consider this :-) 
(16:45:08) yugq: :) 
(16:45:44) mhu: and, if we cannot be better than the current design, than we are at least not worse; but I would like to improve the design if possible. 
(16:46:31) yugq: mhu: I think we can put the share cache in share directory. 
(16:46:40) mhu: and, I would like you to understand the multitude of requirements that exited in the past, and that made the config so complicated. 
(16:47:15) mhu: LiHeng: but the user cannot write to the share directory (no permission) ? 
(16:48:02) LiHeng: how do you feel about we create a security caching file for every user , and deliver it to a safe place, and other settings can put into the normal caching file 
(16:48:04) liangjun: I thank we can let the administrator can write to the share directory. 
(16:48:42) mhu: We only need to provide a method to safely store "Locked down" / readonly config settings... 
(16:48:43) liangjun: and some data about safe data we use new role . 
(16:49:06) mhu: liangjun: yes, that would mean during installation, right? 
(16:49:19) liangjun: no 
(16:49:45) liangjun: mhu: after installed. I thank. 
(16:49:51) mhu: so, when should an admistrator write to the share directory if not during install? 
(16:50:25) mhu: usually, an administrator is involved only during installation ? 
(16:50:56) liangjun: thank / think . sorry. 
(16:50:57) LiHeng: mhu: I agree ,Maybe we append some idea for security control. 
(16:52:05) mhu: LiHeng: okay, thank you. we should not forget that this security aspect exists, and that it is not correctly solved today. 
(16:52:49) LiHeng: At first, we send a description of security to you, in next weekly report. 
(16:53:15) mhu: okay 
(16:53:35) yugq: I suggest two cache. One is in user layer, and the other is in share layer. When load the cache , we merge them. But this merging is a cache merging. 
(16:53:51) LiHeng: please,check it, therefore , we must return to discuss more about it next week. 
(16:54:40) mhu: yes, I think we will discuss this from time to time / review the design against this topic. 
(16:54:43) LiHeng: yugq:take it easy, we need more work on it. 
(16:55:02) yugq: LiHeng: yes. :) 
(16:55:25) mhu: also, remember: one problem is solved, the size of the data in the users home directory :-) 
(16:55:52) LiHeng: mhu:yes, we will be careful 
(16:55:54) liangjun: yes :) 
(16:56:17) LiHeng: mhu:now , we discuss next topic simply,OO performance job for MID or other cheap device. 
(16:56:33) mhu: okay. 
(16:57:06) LiHeng: do you think it necessary for do something for cheap device now? 
(16:58:03) LiHeng: Mobile Internet Device will grow and user will increase more and more 
(16:58:26) mhu: well, I think a build of OOo with sufficient performance on such a device would need to be built against (on) that platform. 
(16:59:35) mhu: other than that, I think I need the machine spec first. performance (startup) usually is a product of cpufreq * memory * diskspeed 
(16:59:48) LiHeng: parts of, MID by Lenovo , we only build it on RedFLag Desktop Version 
(17:00:03) mhu: so optimization in all dimensions are probably necessary 
(17:00:17) LiHeng: mhu:do we also establish simulative envaroment to test subsequent versions of OO for MID machine 
(17:01:05) mhu: a simulator? I only know of valgrind. can't we test on a real device? 
(17:01:50) LiHeng: no , it's not enough basic for run some tools 
(17:01:54) mhu: valgrind = instruction cache simulator 
(17:02:46) yugq: yes, i think valgrind like a virtual cpu. 
(17:02:54) mhu: maybe plus "iogrind" if that is useful (haven't looked at it personally, only Michael Meeks has demonstrated it to me) 
(17:03:26) LiHeng: oh..... 
(17:04:11) yugq: I remember iogrind is developed by Michael Meeks. 
(17:04:32) mhu: but to really see why OOo is slow on the device, we would need to measure some data on the device itself, if only to establish a realistic simulation. 
(17:04:32) LiHeng: sometimes, MID have special hardware and different liberary 
(17:05:13) mhu: LiHeng: that is what I meant with "detailed specification" :-) 
(17:06:04) LiHeng: yes, i will gather them into a report and to send to you. 
(17:06:43) LiHeng: it's a new job, for us, we also need more and more topic for it 
(17:06:50) mhu: okay, thanks. It will not be an easy task to do, but if done right on MID, it will improve for all devices incl. desktops. 
(17:08:00) mhu: I think it is also an interesting job; the idea being that every device should have an OOo installed :-) 
(17:08:50) mhu: even factory preinstalled :-) :-) 
(17:09:01) yugq: :-D 
(17:10:10) LiHeng: that all today 
(17:10:23) mhu: okay, I don' thave more also. 
(17:11:01) LiHeng: mhu:please help us to check plan of security 
(17:11:20) mhu: LiHeng: yes, of course I will help you. 
(17:11:40) LiHeng: okay, bye. 
(17:11:55) mhu: bye all, see you next Thursday. 
(17:12:05) yugq: bye. 
(17:12:15) liangjun: bye. 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/05/16==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/05/16 
Time: 16:00– 16:52 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:00:10) LiHeng: hello everyone, sorry i'm later 
(16:00:42) LiHeng: anther meeting before this was delay :( 
(16:00:44) mhu: Hi LiHeng, I think you are just in time (accourding to my clock, at least) 
(16:02:16) LiHeng: mhu:for a long time I want to talk about veiw tools and creating a database to store raw data of profiling or other tests 
(16:02:39) mhu: yes, I read this on the agenda 
(16:03:43) LiHeng: there no tool can persist raw data and veiw them in good format ,in current satuation 
(16:04:58) LiHeng: all test tools and profiling data are in its specail format ,and all of developer need install a lots of tools to view and analysis them 
(16:05:07) mhu: yes; at best the persistent is file based in a text format (so that other tools or a human can read it). 
(16:05:13) LiHeng: but no comparision 
(16:06:35) mhu: and "analysis" often only means "look at data" :-( 
(16:06:39) LiHeng: we also can support to export text and xml format 
(16:08:15) mhu: yes, please continue; I did not wanted to interrupt you 
(16:08:24) LiHeng: in fact, we just start to create a database to search and compare test result in different versions 
(16:09:20) LiHeng: this project would be developed by Release Dept , Testing Dept and my Dept CH2000 
(16:09:53) mhu: yes, collecting and making available data sets in a database sounds like a good idea. 
(16:10:39) LiHeng: two month ago, i talk to you about test all version and report its effective in Beijing by CH2000, 
(16:10:57) mhu: yes, I remember. 
(16:11:38) LiHeng: i have thought how to get versions and publish test report 
(16:12:05) mhu: yes? 
(16:12:30) LiHeng: at last , i decided to create a database maybe a good way 
(16:12:51) mhu: yes, I think so too. 
(16:13:29) mhu: I'm not a database expert, but I think most people will understand this approach. 
(16:14:26) LiHeng: we create a webserver , all people interested in performance of OO can veiw report and chart on web, that can couse more and more people to join sa 
(16:14:45) LiHeng: sorry sa/us 
(16:14:49) LiHeng: ;) 
(16:14:50) mhu: maintaining all the test / analysis data manually only leads to "chaos", in that after some time noone remembers where all the data and result are / came from. 
(16:15:32) mhu: yes, a web frontend is probably the best access method more most developers. 
(16:16:09) LiHeng: at first, we can only maintain the raw data of performance test and profiling 
(16:16:14) mhu: ...and get interested and join, as you say. 
(16:17:04) mhu: yes, all beginning is with raw data 
(16:17:32) LiHeng: so, we will create web view tools for profiling tools, tuning tools and other preformance tests 
(16:17:32) mhu: ...that is natural, and no problem I think. 
(16:17:56) mhu: good ! 
(16:18:24) LiHeng: :) 
(16:19:42) LiHeng: ok,i will send the list of tools we want to you, please check it. 
(16:19:55) mhu: okay, will do. 
(16:20:04) LiHeng: second.... 
(16:20:16) LiHeng: Start to collect Representative documents and define benchmark for all test documents 
(16:20:59) LiHeng: i talk about performance problem with our end user 
(16:21:18) mhu: have you received any documents from Malte, or talked to Malte about documents that we are using internally here in Hamburg? 
(16:22:14) mhu: ah, okay, understood. A set of sample "real live" documents similar to what users have, right? 
(16:22:26) LiHeng: yes , i have. it's the tuning tool and document 
(16:22:30) mhu: s/live/life/ 
(16:22:58) mhu: yes, the document(s) for the automated cws performance test tooling. 
(16:23:10) LiHeng: in performance wiki, have a section to arrange the test document 
(16:24:17) LiHeng: three categorization in it 
(16:24:29) LiHeng: but Representative documents 
(16:24:33) LiHeng: is empty 
(16:25:26) LiHeng: so , i want get some from our and user and put them into performance project 
(16:25:52) mhu: yes, to have such documents available on the wiki is fine I think. 
(16:25:53) LiHeng: but i don't know are there some rule for test-case in OO? 
(16:26:22) mhu: what kind of rule are you thinking about? 
(16:27:28) LiHeng: some standart or basic requirment 
(16:27:30) LiHeng: ? 
(16:28:19) mhu: Not sure I know what you mean, but ... 
(16:28:50) mhu: ...any document that shows real life / user problems is a good / valid test case... 
(16:30:04) mhu: ...any document that a developer constructs to exercise some aspect of a problem might be a good test case... 
(16:30:06) LiHeng: oh, i means, Are there some standards for test-case or document? 
(16:30:23) LiHeng: ok, i see 
(16:31:04) mhu: ...for example Niklas Nebel once has constructed a spreadsheet that takes very long to load but is very simple. 
(16:31:50) mhu: ...so, it depends: when you want to otimize xml loading, take ODT, ODS, ... 
(16:32:04) LiHeng: understand! thank you 
(16:32:10) mhu: ..when you want to perfect MS import, take .DOC, XLS, .. 
(16:32:15) mhu: okay, fine :-) 
(16:32:40) LiHeng: yugq:do you have some problem you mentioned before? 
(16:32:49) mhu: I just didn't know what you were asking, hence the long answer :-) 
(16:33:34) LiHeng: mhu: but just answerd it:) 
(16:33:47) yugq: LiHeng, yes 
(16:33:53) LiHeng: please 
(16:36:54) mhu: yes? 
(16:37:09) yugq: mhu: I found Meeks wrote a piece of unit test code in configmgr(some thing like benchmark). But the benchmark I wrote is not using the CppUnit. 
(16:38:36) mhu: well, CppUnit is for unit tests as you know; do you see a problem in not using it for your benchmark? I don't see a problem. 
(16:38:55) yugq: I just want to know which way be better. 
(16:39:02) yugq: :) 
(16:39:37) mhu: As usual, it depends: when you it to be included into unit testing, then make it a unit test... 
(16:40:22) mhu: ...if you only want it executed manually for a developer working on the module (and the test takes very long) make it a separate test program. 
(16:41:00) yugq: OK, I think I know the point now. Thank you very much! 
(16:41:28) mhu: I think it is okay, to start as you did. I you later have a good idea for a unit test, then we can make that later. 
(16:41:51) mhu: s/I you later/If you later/ 
(16:42:03) LiHeng: mhu:anther thing about test documents 
(16:42:11) mhu: yes 
(16:42:17) LiHeng: We found some exercise document in WIKI but there are not some regular test and benchmark can confirm that problem have been dealt 
(16:42:28) yugq: And I think a separate test program may be better. Because unit test generally test functional case, but benchmark test performance case. 
(16:42:58) LiHeng: mhu:How do you feel about define some benchmark and test-case for every test document? 
(16:43:18) mhu: yugq: yes, for a performance test case, you often do need an external driver program. 
(16:44:11) yugq: mhu: yes. Just as I do now. Thank you! 
(16:44:17) mhu: LiHeng: yes, if that is a "good" document, good := helpful..., then we probably should make a test around it. 
(16:44:59) mhu: also: maybe "good" can mean "reference" 
(16:45:37) mhu: ...can also mean... 
(16:46:22) LiHeng: okay, when we gather Representative document , we will convert them to exercise document for performance project 
(16:46:48) mhu: okay 
(16:47:09) LiHeng: that all for me, today 
(16:47:34) yugq: no more for me. 
(16:48:05) LiHeng: mhu:do you have some topic you want to talk? 
(16:48:06) kuangl: no more too 
(16:48:27) mhu: I think that is all from my side also. 
(16:49:22) mhu: maybe, how about xiuzhi? he does not attend our meeting for quite some time now? 
(16:49:23) LiHeng: mhu: see you next week 
(16:50:04) LiHeng: he is in a holiday 
(16:50:11) LiHeng: fitment his house :) 
(16:50:19) LiHeng: today 
(16:50:29) mhu: oh, then I wish a good holiday... 
(16:50:44) mhu: okay, then see you next week. Bye all. 
(16:50:50) yugq: bye. 
(16:50:52) kuangl: bye 
(16:50:59) liangjun: bye 
(16:51:07) LiHeng: oh , see you next week! 
(16:51:09) LiHeng: bye 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/05/08==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/05/08 
Time: 15:53– 17:24 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:08:36) LiHeng: english,please!!!! 
(16:08:38) LiHeng: :( 
(16:08:39) LiHeng: :( 
(16:08:39) LiHeng: :(I 
(16:08:40) LiHeng: :( 
(16:08:41) LiHeng: :( 
(16:08:43) LiHeng: ::( 
(16:08:46) yugq: OK 
(16:09:02) LiHeng: chinese 
(16:09:12) yugq: mhu is late again. 
(16:09:30) LiHeng: traffice is very hevry 
(16:09:39) yugq: :-D 
(16:09:45) LiHeng: heavy / hevry 
(16:10:12) yugq: Beijing more heavy 
(16:10:41) LiHeng: much most 
(16:11:36) yugq: LiHeng: Please talk about XML more detail. 
(16:13:19) LiHeng: ok, i want to cache the handle of XML file, and parse it when it's using 
(16:14:09) LiHeng: build a tree model with fast naming index 
(16:14:43) yugq: Does it influence current Object Model? 
(16:14:43) LiHeng: mainly, support XPath access 
(16:15:00) LiHeng: maybe no 
(16:15:33) yugq: Does current implemention support XPath? 
(16:15:34) LiHeng: but after this work , it will support DOM3 interface 
(16:15:45) LiHeng: a little 
(16:16:01) LiHeng: and is not standarty 
(16:16:16) liangjun: LiHeng: What to do about configmgr, continue or stop ? 
(16:16:22) LiHeng: it's unformly 
(16:16:27) yugq: DOM3 is inventing now, it seems not fully designed yet. 
(16:16:52) LiHeng: liangjun:must continue, go go go 
(16:17:06) LiHeng: why do we stop? 
(16:17:27) yugq: He need a command:-D 
(16:17:40) LiHeng: yugq:but some feature is useful! 
(16:18:28) liangjun: Oh , can I write some code test it ? 
(16:18:30) LiHeng: commands will be need only for stop or cancle, 
(16:18:33) yugq: You did not mention XML parse 
(16:18:43) LiHeng: liangjun,yes,yes 
(16:19:32) LiHeng: liangjun:according to Benchmark ;) 
(16:19:47) liangjun: ok , I try to do . 
(16:19:56) LiHeng: yugq: did not ? 
(16:20:04) yugq: LiHeng: I mean the parse model. 
(16:20:22) mhu: Hi all... 
(16:20:28) LiHeng: hi mhu, 
(16:20:31) yugq: Hi 
(16:20:36) liangjun: mhu: hi 
(16:21:10) mhu: sorry, again I got stuck in a traffic jam (there was a car accident on the "Autobahn" from home to office) 
(16:21:17) kuangl: hi 
(16:21:24) mhu: hi all 
(16:21:42) LiHeng: mhu: never mind 
(16:22:09) LiHeng: traffic is a general problem all of the world 
(16:22:47) mhu: maybe I need a few more minutes to prepare...need to look into my email...dig out your email... 
(16:23:02) LiHeng: maybe we can fly in the future:) 
(16:24:13) LiHeng: there is a attachment about benchmark of configmgr 
(16:30:02) mhu: okay, now I've read the agenda, and the "benchmark.odt", and I'm ready to start. 
(16:30:19) LiHeng: ok,1. Benchmark defination for ConfigMgr 
(16:31:18) LiHeng: did you think the benchmark can view all change of configmgr? 
(16:31:31) mhu: yes, the document looks good; structured approach to the problem. The only remaining question, as I understand it, is how to measure memory? 
(16:31:51) yugq: mhu: yes 
(16:32:00) mhu: yes, I think it describes the interesting observables. 
(16:33:09) mhu: the time for individual items vs depth maybe more for your own interest (see that your caching works)... 
(16:33:11) LiHeng: yes, we surely need measure memory 
(16:33:45) yugq: One way is define a NEW macro, in which we do some memory measuring, instead the default new operation. And when benchmark the application we can build OOo with the NEW macro available. 
(16:33:49) mhu: but measuring the conribution to module start time of course it a macroscopically observable measure 
(16:34:08) LiHeng: conribution? 
(16:34:21) LiHeng: what means conribution? 
(16:34:26) mhu: s/conribution/contribution/ 
(16:34:34) mhu: sorry 
(16:34:50) mhu: typing too fast a ttimes 
(16:34:59) mhu: (and again :-) ) 
(16:35:25) mhu: as to memory... 
(16:35:54) yugq: mhu: yes. But I think we just need a comparison to different versions or different implemention, so macroscopically maybe ok. 
(16:36:03) mhu: ...under Linux, we could use the builtin memory manager (in module sal: rtl/alloc_*) 
(16:36:43) mhu: yugq: yes, that is what I wanted to say, sorry if I was unclear.# 
(16:37:05) LiHeng: we will add memory check into our benchmark 
(16:37:37) LiHeng: and that will be use to measure 'configtune00' 
(16:38:16) mhu: okay, please let me know if you need help with the sal/rtl/source/alloc* memory manager. 
(16:38:56) LiHeng: thank you, 
(16:39:10) yugq: mhu: yes 
(16:39:24) LiHeng: by the way, did you receive last email about analysis of configmgr? 
(16:40:16) mhu: oh yes, I've received that email. But I think, I have not yet read all of it. I'm trying to do that in parallel now. 
(16:41:16) LiHeng: there are some vision of configmgr from us. 
(16:43:09) LiHeng: i will send new benchmark plan with memory measuring in weekly report next tuesdays 
(16:43:24) mhu: okay, do you mean the Weekly report document that you sent out on May 6 ? 
(16:44:01) mhu: I have read that now; I think your analysis is approximately correct. 
(16:45:05) mhu: and, as long as you maintain the basic functionality, I think you are free to simplify the implementation as much as you can / want / improves performance. 
(16:46:35) LiHeng: yes, if we have a simplify base, we can trace more problems 
(16:47:36) mhu: for example, different layers (now: {product / shared} and {user}) are probably needed, but the implementation can of course be changed. 
(16:48:44) LiHeng: yes, we want to move some implementation before installation 
(16:50:12) mhu: okay 
(16:50:15) LiHeng: and while run under multi-user condition, we can provide a set of tools to deal it 
(16:51:40) mhu: oh, I think the multi-user case is in fact the standard case, even on Windows ? 
(16:51:52) mhu: we shoul 
(16:51:56) mhu: sorry 
(16:52:44) LiHeng: No , on windows we don't need multi-user 
(16:52:48) mhu: we should probably not optimize for the uncommon case of a single user installation; that's probably only developers doing that (and knowing about the possibility). 
(16:53:44) LiHeng: fine
(16:54:27) mhu: but even under windows, you install into c:\\program files\... which is a multi-user installation, even if only one user uses the computer 
(16:54:30) LiHeng: yugq:how do you think? 
(16:55:15) LiHeng: yes, 
(16:55:37) yugq: LiHeng: I think we could not modify the user requirment. 
(16:56:04) LiHeng: ;) 
(16:56:08) LiHeng: okay 
(16:56:52) mhu: and for security reasons, many windows computers distinguish "Administrator" (installing the software) and "Me (unprivileged) User" (using the software). 
(16:57:18) liangjun: mhu:Every user has his result data . I think . 
(16:57:32) mhu: I don't know if I really understand what you both mean with "user requirement" ? 
(16:58:00) mhu: liangjun: yes, that "result data" is the merged view in memory (or in users folder) 
(16:58:01) yugq: mhu: Exactly multi-user case. 
(16:58:25) yugq: :) 
(16:58:39) mhu: so, do we then agree that we need (at least) the two layers of "share" and "user" ? 
(16:59:25) mhu: (and maybe a "brand" layer in the future, when different brandings of OOo share the same base installation) 
(16:59:45) yugq: I agree. 
(16:59:50) liangjun: mhu: the result data is in users folder and view in memory. 
(17:00:03) LiHeng: mhu:yes but the data in "share" only use to create new "user" 
(17:00:10) mhu: liangjun: yes that is what I wanted to say also 
(17:00:48) liangjun: mhu: ok :) 
(17:01:04) mhu: LiHeng: okay, now I seem to understand; yes, I agree, the share is of course readonly and thus can be seen as a template for each user. 
(17:01:39) LiHeng: :) 
(17:01:42) yugq: :-D 
(17:02:12) mhu: okay, with this my understanding I see where you are aiming at; maybe that is indeed a good Idea... 
(17:02:33) yugq: some operations done before application runtime 
(17:03:06) mhu: the only thing that comes into my mind is disc space consumed for each and every user in true multi-user environments (in megabytes per user). 
(17:03:36) yugq: mhu: yes. This is a fallback. 
(17:03:57) LiHeng: ok , we understand each other 
(17:04:00) LiHeng: :) 
(17:04:03) LiHeng: mhu:do you have time to discuss tools set, or i send plan in next weekly report? 
(17:07:36) LiHeng: mhu:do you have time to discuss tools set, or i send plan in next weekly report? 
(17:21:21) LiHeng: maybe network have some trouble again:) 

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[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 06

2010-03-17T23:12:47Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/06/26==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
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Date: 2008/06/26 
Time: 16:05– 16:40 
Meeting No.: 
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Agenda: 
(4:05:56 PM) liheng: Hi,all 
(4:05:57 PM) erAck: ah, answer arrives ;) 
(4:06:06 PM) Matthias: and there they are :-) 
(4:06:20 PM) liheng: sorry,I'm late 
(4:06:37 PM) erAck: np, good afternoon 
(4:06:38 PM) liangjun: :) Hi all 
(4:06:42 PM) Matthias: liheng: hi, dont worry 
(4:06:51 PM) yugq: hi all 
(4:08:25 PM) liheng: Matthias: Welcome to you come back, How about your vacation? :) 
(4:10:23 PM) Matthias: liheng: that was a very good vacation time, thanks
(4:10:41 PM) liheng: You are welcome! 
(4:10:49 PM) liheng: Let's update our status. 
(4:12:10 PM) ***Matthias status is simple: still couple hundred emails left to read after returning from vacation; will report cws mhu20 status next week latest 
(4:13:01 PM) erAck: my status: solving OOo3.1.1 puzzles. 
(4:14:08 PM) cd_oo: my status: CWS fwk108 which contains start up improvements for Writer and an optimization for the SfxVoidItem is "nominated". CWS fwk112 which contains the non-rebased library optimization for Windows is "Ready for QA". 
(4:14:20 PM) liheng: My Status:I and yugp rebuild the user interface for BenchmarkSystem,we add user management to support that you can trace and save your Benchmark rawdata on web ... 
(4:16:23 PM) liheng: ... and we start to trace changes between m44 and 00o3.1 to verify all work is effective in performance 
(4:17:41 PM) liheng: I'm also working for replacing the wiki of performance,but I found lots of information in it. :( 
(4:20:02 PM) Matthias: replace the wiki? why? replace with what ? can you explain, please ? 
(4:20:16 PM) liangjun: My Status: continue odf document load performance , and it's slow :P 
(4:23:28 PM) liheng: Several weeks ago, we talk to rearrange the first wiki page of performance, so that we can easy to trace status, effectivity and progress of our work... 
(4:24:52 PM) liangjun: I plan to use three strategy: serial / parallel / delay processing 
(4:25:37 PM) liheng: So, I start this work with my colleague about two weeks before, but we found lot's of pages and information in old. 
(4:26:46 PM) Matthias: liheng: ah, rearrange the wiki pages (not replace). that is fine with me. 
(4:27:40 PM) liheng: Sorry, I used ambiguous words. 
(4:34:06 PM) liheng: Ok, if no more topic ,can we close meeting early today? 
(4:34:39 PM) ***Matthias had a very similar question :-) 
(4:35:03 PM) Matthias: yes, I dont have more for today 
(4:35:16 PM) erAck: fine with me 
(4:35:34 PM) liangjun: me too 
(4:36:50 PM) cd_oo: ok 
(4:37:43 PM) erAck: bye all! 
(4:39:06 PM) cd_oo: bye all 
(4:39:25 PM) Matthias: okay, then see you next week, have a nice weekend, bye all 
(4:39:55 PM) liheng: Okay, see you next week.bye all 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/06/19==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/06/19 
Time: 16:02– 16:13 
Meeting No.: 
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Agenda: 
(16:02:46) LiHeng: Hi, my network is not good enough:) 
(16:03:02) LiHeng: where is Xiuzhi? 
(16:04:54) yugq: He is not in his seat. 
(16:05:36) LiHeng: Okay,maybe he have another meeting with Boss;) 
(16:06:16) LiHeng: mhu:did you receive the email about topic today 
(16:06:44) LiHeng: mhu:I says sorry for it was late. 
(16:06:54) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I have read your agenda, as well as yugq's email to the mailing list. 
(16:07:15) mhu: Oh, don't worry being late; usually, it is me who is late. 
(16:07:49) LiHeng: I'm not in office recently, and our mailbox has lots of trouble since it was change to "redoffice.com.cn":( 
(16:08:30) yugq: I will be better later.;-) 
(16:08:33) mhu: okay, don't worry; as long as it works somehow, we can work. 
(16:09:29) LiHeng: thank you, today we have only one major topic about "locking" that was mentioned by Michael 
(16:09:40) LiHeng: yugq:please:) 
(16:09:48) yugq: OK. 
(16:10:05) mhu: yes, and I think you are right: we cannot improve with (fine) tuning hot spots only. 
(16:10:56) yugq: From MMeeks' mail, he metioned the "Locking" problem, "locking" is a hotspot. And from the profile data from callgrind, configmgr contributes a lot to "locking" also. 
(16:10:56) mhu: that is why we have started this project, to do some deeper analysis and fix things better than just "tuning" 
(16:11:31) mhu: yugq: yes, Michael is right here, it is indeed a well known hotspot. 
(16:11:35) LiHeng: mhu:yes :), we must make a large scale refactor in following versions to improve performance step by step 
(16:12:10) yugq: Configmgr's locking problem mainly comes from binary read and string operations. 
(16:13:21) mhu: Michaels approach is the well known (open source) "bazaar" principle of "many small incremental changes" in the end give a good product. And while that is surely true, it is not always the best approach to solve problems. 
(16:13:27) yugq: And another big contribution to "lock" comes from UNO concerned operation. 
(16:13:54) mhu: yugq: yes, as far as I remember, your analysis is correct. 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/06/12==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/06/12 
Time: 16:00– 17:02 
Meeting No.: 
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Agenda: 
(16:00:29) LiHeng: Hi, everyone 
(16:00:43) mhu: Hi all 
(16:00:55) LiHeng: Hi,matthias 
(16:01:12) mhu: Hi LiHeng 
(16:01:20) liangjun: mhu: hi 
(16:01:41) mhu: Hi liangjun 
(16:01:48) LiHeng: mhu:Did you receive the weekly report? 
(16:02:00) xiuzhi: hi all 
(16:02:06) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I have received and read it, thanks. 
(16:02:18) mhu: Hi xiuzhi 
(16:02:27) xiuzhi: mhu:hi ,moin 
(16:02:33) mhu: moin :-) 
(16:03:28) mhu: xiuzhi: you have many irc meetings with martin hollmichel ? (moin) 
(16:03:59) xiuzhi: mhu: sure 
(16:04:19) xiuzhi: mhu: I hope to meet you next month 
(16:04:20) mhu: that's what I thought. 
(16:04:42) mhu: xiuzhi: Ah yes, you are coming to Hamburg, right? 
(16:05:08) xiuzhi: mhu: I hope so, but I am not sure the visa, time is very urgent 
(16:05:23) mhu: xiuzhi: ah, I see. 
(16:05:38) LiHeng: mhu:At first, we continue to discuss about shared configure and administrator's operations. 
(16:05:53) mhu: LiHeng: okay, please go ahead. 
(16:07:32) LiHeng: we confirm that there are still some finialize item in configures but they are removed into Basic3.0 directary in OO3.0 :) 
(16:08:52) LiHeng: Then, now, we have to talk about , which operations admin work on they 
(16:09:32) mhu: Hmm, do you mean "removed" (i.e. "away"), or do you mean "moved to Basic directory" (i.e. they are somewhere else, but still there) ? 
(16:10:08) LiHeng: mhu:yes! sorry for type 
(16:10:11) LiHeng: :( 
(16:10:41) mhu: okay, no problem; but which one do you mean? "moved to ..." ? 
(16:11:36) LiHeng: they are moved into Basic directory now 
(16:12:04) LiHeng: so they are still existing 
(16:12:05) LiHeng: :) 
(16:12:28) mhu: ah, okay. But then effectively nothing has changed, except the location (but not the meaning), right ? 
(16:13:21) LiHeng: a little items were changed. but it is not important for us 
(16:14:03) mhu: So, from what I understand, this installation change is done to better separate "URE", "Basic", and "Brand". 
(16:14:39) xiuzhi: sure, 
(16:15:17) LiHeng: mhu:Yes, and that we have to talk about which operations admin work on them, one important thing is when user modify a configuration setting ..... 
(16:15:56) mhu: So, we still want to find a possibility to store the merged configuration data as a single item in the users directory, and at the same time allow an administrator to "fix" some settings, so that a user cannot change them, right ? 
(16:16:17) mhu: sorry, I just read that you wrote the same as I :-) 
(16:17:50) LiHeng: for item user cann't change we reach a consensus, but are there some items can be changed by both user and admin? 
(16:17:53) mhu: can we think of a (generic) way to allow an administrator to "fix" any setting she likes, or do we need to define a few settings ? 
(16:19:21) mhu: changed by both user and admin? I think that would be the initial (template) data? But not at runtime, where user changes always win ? 
(16:20:12) LiHeng: if an administrator to "fix" any setting, we must confirm how to deal the setting that would be changed by a user? 
(16:20:44) LiHeng: Oh,yes , I see all of yours, ... 
(16:21:15) mhu: if the item is finalized by admin, I think user cannot change it ( or when he changes it, it will be reverted back to the admin setting) 
(16:21:45) LiHeng: That admin can change any setting for new user , and a user will get the initial setting when he setup,... 
(16:22:04) mhu: yes, that was I idea, I think. 
(16:22:27) LiHeng: then user can change settings but some setting don't be allowed? 
(16:22:35) mhu: yes 
(16:23:29) LiHeng: okay, we complete all requirements for shared copy of configuration :) 
(16:24:34) mhu: maybe, the set of "finalized" configuration (dom) nodes can be read from the "share" directory / layer. If there is no such file (nodes), then startup maybe faster (no need to merge). 
(16:24:53) mhu: just a spontaneous idea... 
(16:25:13) LiHeng: that you for your patience 
(16:26:18) mhu: oh, design / architecture via irc is something new for me; so thank you for your patience :-) 
(16:26:36) LiHeng: mhu: yes , will design some mapping for get static setting 
(16:26:50) mhu: okay 
(16:27:56) LiHeng: after, this job we will design/ architecture via email ,but now we must try to walk on same way! 
(16:28:22) mhu: and, when we have a more concrete idea, and maybe proof of concept implementation, we should probably also discuss this in public, so that others can raise their voice just in case we forgot something important. 
(16:29:20) mhu: LiHeng: can you repeat please, I am not sure I understand ? 
(16:29:26) LiHeng: yes, we will public the requirements to mailing list 
(16:30:08) LiHeng: configmgr refactor is the first job working with you, ... 
(16:30:26) mhu: yes... 
(16:31:06) xiuzhi: publicing the discussing result is a good idea. 
(16:31:32) LiHeng: so we worry about we can't in same method of working 
(16:32:09) mhu: LiHeng: "walk on same way" ? "method of working" ? can you explain? do you see a problem? 
(16:33:53) LiHeng: no problem now :) 
(16:33:56) mhu: I think, you can simply go ahead how you want to work, and I will try to help as much as I can; is that okay for you? 
(16:34:08) mhu: LiHeng: okay :-) 
(16:34:49) LiHeng: i mean we adapted style of work with OO 
(16:34:55) LiHeng: ;)\ 
(16:35:18) mhu: okay 
(16:37:56) xiuzhi: something wrong with LeeH's network, I think 
(16:38:39) mhu: yes, this happened previously also; shall we wait a few minutes? 
(16:39:39) xiuzhi: I will call him. 
(16:40:06) mhu: xiuzhi: by the way, you sometimes write "Lee" instead of "Li"; are these two forms equivalent? 
(16:40:27) xiuzhi: ok now 
(16:40:43) LiHeng: mhu:sorry, i am just down 
(16:40:43) mhu: welcome back... 
(16:40:44) xiuzhi: mhu: yes. 
(16:40:55) mhu: xiuzhi: okay, thanks. 
(16:41:33) LiHeng: xiuzhi:please save the log, my irc has just crashed! 
(16:41:43) xiuzhi: LiHeng:ok 
(16:42:13) LiHeng: mhu:we want to get your opinions about " it is well known the hotspot is dynamic in different versions, and lots of persons and teams work on it. But all kinds of performance problems has existed in OO. So there is little effectivity on performance improvement by individual teams. " 
(16:42:13) mhu: hopefully, I also have a copy of the log, if it helps. 
(16:43:31) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I read that in some of your emails; I think this is generally a valid observation; do you want more detailed comments? 
(16:45:37) LiHeng: i am making a plan to change the state, but it need a lot of work and supporting of OO 
(16:46:42) mhu: yes, it does indeed need a lot of work; that is why some (technically possible) performance improvements have not been done in the past. 
(16:47:31) LiHeng: if we want to impove performance of OO completely, we must change some method of developement or make some addition process into 
(16:47:33) mhu: I think, you will have the (moral) support of almost all users; specific support from developers is sometimes more difficult to get 
(16:48:22) mhu: do you already have some ideas about changing the development (process)? 
(16:49:04) LiHeng: a little , but it's not whole plan, 
(16:49:07) LiHeng: ;) 
(16:49:19) mhu: [one of my ideas would be more design reviews before someone implements something that makes OOo slower] 
(16:49:43) mhu: yes, I also do not (yet) have a whole plan. 
(16:50:40) mhu: [but those design reviews would be a very centralized approach, and might not scale with many simultaneous CWS that are underway] 
(16:50:51) LiHeng: yes, most important is review, but it would not not be in point , must check whole 
(16:51:43) mhu: yes, that is also what I mean: a review against the whole design (each piece must fit into the puzzle somewhere) 
(16:52:07) LiHeng: we need some mechanism to check and compare values of testing automic 
(16:52:31) mhu: yes, I think we already agreed on that 
(16:52:37) LiHeng: and publish to all of develop teams 
(16:53:15) mhu: yes, if everyone can see the results (and knows that others can see that too) it might help raising awareness. 
(16:54:08) LiHeng: and separate tuning and refactor make the plan for following several version 
(16:55:00) mhu: LiHeng: are there some words missing in above sentence? 
(16:55:44) LiHeng: Yes :) 
(16:56:05) mhu: okay, can you rephrase it, please? 
(16:57:01) LiHeng: For tracing improvement of performance , we must determine the targets of every version and separate tuning and refactor make the plan for following several version 
(16:57:02) LiHeng: :) 
(16:57:03) mhu: you think of a more long term plan, including time for refactoring and tuning (like we now have for localization)? 
(16:58:17) mhu: okay, and also a target (of improvement; say, 10% faster startup ?) for each version seems to be good. 
(16:58:17) LiHeng: mhu:today, it's time out, i send a part of plan by email , in next weekly report 
(16:59:00) mhu: okay, I think we are not so far away in what we think is the right thing to do. I wait for your email, thanks. 
(16:59:25) LiHeng: 10%, 20% on the premise that it must be measurable :) 
(16:59:44) mhu: yes, of course measurable :-) 
(17:00:05) LiHeng: okay, that's all:) 
(17:00:10) LiHeng: good luck 
(17:00:15) mhu: that was only an example of a "target"; it can also be 100% if you like that number better :-) 
(17:00:34) mhu: okay, then see you next Thursday? 
(17:00:56) LiHeng: yes, next Thursday 
(17:01:04) liangjun: bye :) 
(17:01:11) mhu: okay, then bye all. 
(17:01:21) LiHeng: bye 
(17:02:02) xiuzhi: see you next Thursday 
(17:02:21) mhu: bye xiuzhi 
(17:02:31) xiuzhi: mhu:bye 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/06/05==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/06/05 
Time: 16:09– 17:20 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(16:09:58) LiHeng: Hi, mhu 
(16:10:19) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being late (again) :-( 
(16:10:25) liangjun: mhu: hello 
(16:11:05) kuangliang: hello mhu 
(16:12:02) LiHeng: Don't mind. mhu, I'm late too, just earlier a little than you 
(16:12:43) LiHeng: I'm not in company , so there are some trouble with WIFI here:) 
(16:13:05) mhu: okay. 
(16:13:41) LiHeng: mhu:Did you receive the email that have tipocs for today? 
(16:14:34) mhu: yes, I have read the agenda, and also the "Configmgr Refactor" document. 
(16:16:10) LiHeng: Do you think about those requirements are enough to new configmgr? 
(16:17:49) mhu: generally yes, but I think I have a few comments and questions... 
(16:19:19) mhu: (a) I am not sure that the merged tree needs to be a "binary cache" (it could possibly also be a single large xml file that is fast to load and parse). 
(16:20:44) mhu: (b) I am not sure that I really mean "readonly" and "security" only; probably it is called different but there is a concept of "finalized" and a concept of "shared" meaning that a user cannot change it. 
(16:23:27) mhu: (c) the small amount of "readonly" / "shared" items needs of course be merged at every startup (at least), and is probably still xml (xcu); that's why I think merging means merging the dom nodes, and the merged result can again be (saved as) a single large xml file. 
(16:24:16) mhu: That's it for the moment; generally a good idea, maybe I did not yet understand everything of your details. 
(16:26:13) LiHeng: About the (a), we had design a format of merged data, no problem, we also want to make it to formed a xml, but now OO is binary cache, 
(16:27:24) mhu: okay, I think you can make it xml; the current binary cache is only a helper implementation detail; it does not need to remain. 
(16:27:59) LiHeng: okay, i think so.:) 
(16:30:11) LiHeng: and (b)and (c) would be same problems for me, and it is putted on the agenda at first by me. 
(16:30:27) mhu: as long as the performance is good, you can save everything to a single xml file (probably majority of slowly chaniging items); there maybe fast changing items (WindowState.xcu's ?), that should probably go into smaller individual files? 
(16:30:59) mhu: ah, okay; yes (b) is (c) is probably the same, you are right. 
(16:31:37) xiuzhi: hi all 
(16:31:47) mhu: Hi xiuzhi 
(16:31:53) xiuzhi: sorry for late 
(16:31:58) xiuzhi: mhu:moin 
(16:32:03) LiHeng: xiuzhi is coming now 
(16:32:04) mhu: moin :-) 
(16:32:13) LiHeng: hello, xiuzhi 
(16:32:28) xiuzhi: LiHeng:hi afternoon 
(16:32:29) liangjun: xiuzhi:hello 
(16:32:43) xiuzhi: liangjun:how are you 
(16:33:03) LiHeng: xiuzhi: we just talk about the "readonly"/"shared" item in configmgr 
(16:33:41) xiuzhi: LiHeng:see . I looked your agenda and last meeting minutes 
(16:34:48) LiHeng: mhu:As I saw from (b), finally we just need "Readonly"/"Shared" Item for administrator 
(16:36:35) LiHeng: and in answer (c), you think those items would be loaded at startup for flush the "Shared" setting, right? 
(16:37:57) mhu: LiHeng: yes, "administrator" owns those items... 
(16:38:43) mhu: ...and yes, they would be merged "over" (possibly conflicting) user settings. 
(16:40:48) LiHeng: last question for shared item. Do you means all of items admin owns that couldn't be modified by other users? But now oo have no such item in 
(16:44:33) LiHeng: mhu:last question for shared item. Do you means all of items admin owns that couldn't be modified by other users? But now oo have no such item in 
(16:44:58) mhu: are you sure? I have just grep'ed over a shared registry; there are lots of "oor:finalized=true" items? 
(16:47:59) LiHeng: i mean I not sure that the all shared items couldn't be medified by other users
(16:48:47) mhu: no, not all; I am talking about "share/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/Paths.xcu" for example, which has a couple of "oor:finalized=true" 
(16:49:52) mhu: (another file is same path, but "Label.xcu") 
(16:52:34) LiHeng: in "oo-dev 3" has no Paths.xcu in share/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/ now (at least in my machine) 
(16:52:34) mhu: (but, when I look at it, "Labels.xcu" is probably not critical; making no difference whether a user modifies it or not) 
(16:53:20) mhu: oh, I took some old (2.x, x unknown) installation... 
(16:54:46) mhu: ...maybe I have missed a couple of changes to the configuration (?) 
(16:55:31) LiHeng: we will comfire it tomorrow 
(16:55:39) mhu: ...but, that does still not mean, that another layer / backend could not make use of that "finalized" attribute. 
(16:56:30) mhu: ...and if an admistrator wants to preconfigure an installation, it can still make sense. 
(16:56:39) mhu: ...at least I think so. 
(16:57:40) mhu: yes, please confirm (with whom?) whether is "finalized" concept is still there. 
(16:58:02) mhu: s/whether is/ whether this/ 
(16:58:26) LiHeng: yes, i will 
(16:58:33) mhu: okay, thanks 
(16:59:56) LiHeng: in theory, when a user changed status of a item, administrator couldn't flush it with Share configure,do you think so ? 
(17:03:31) mhu: Hmm, I think a user cannot change a "shared" item? But otherwise, user modifyable setting of course take precedence over the "template" / installed values; is it this that you are asking? 
(17:06:12) LiHeng: As i saw, Path-Options have two layers if user edit a item , it will keep in user cache. And take back the original setting while user click "default" button. 
(17:06:59) mhu: yes, that's how PathOptions work. 
(17:08:13) LiHeng: so original (default) setting are kinds of "Shared" , but it can be changed by a user 
(17:08:14) mhu: but that is only a "default" value of an item that could be stored in the merged users directory as well as the users modified setting, I think. 
(17:08:48) mhu: yes, the "default" settings come from the shared layer. 
(17:10:06) mhu: this is what I would call a "template", where for every (new) users first startup the user settings are generated and stored in the users directory (as you are planning) 
(17:11:56) mhu: sorry, but looking at the time, do have more to discuss for today? 
(17:11:57) LiHeng: oh, i see, shared item wouldn't be modified by user any time 
(17:12:15) mhu: yes, that's the idea :-) 
(17:13:07) LiHeng: oh, we need talk about, therefore we come back this discussion next work, right? 
(17:13:35) mhu: okay, yes we can continue this discussion next week, of course. 
(17:14:28) LiHeng: before it, we should confirm serveral preblom in this week,:) 
(17:14:38) mhu: yes, okay 
(17:14:46) LiHeng: thank you, 
(17:15:11) mhu: thank you for your fresh ideas for an old problem. 
(17:15:46) LiHeng: thank you for your patience. see you next Thurday 
(17:15:53) mhu: okay, bye all, see you next week. 
(17:15:55) xiuzhi: see you 
(17:16:05) LiHeng: sorry thursday 
(17:16:07) mhu: bye 
(17:16:13) LiHeng: bye 
(17:16:16) liangjun: mhu: bye 
(17:17:08) LiHeng: liangjun:can you confirm "finalized" setting? 
(17:20:19) LiHeng: 88 
(17:20:31) liangjun: bye 

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[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 07

2010-03-17T23:12:42Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/07/31==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/07/31 
Time: 15:38– 17:12 
Meeting No.: 
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Agenda: 
(15:58:35) liheng: hi xiuzhi 
(15:59:11) xiuzhi: liheng:hi afternoon 
(16:00:16) xiuzhi: I suggested that we can have bi-weekly meeting if we have no more issues to discuss. 
(16:02:01) liheng: xiuzhi:OK, i am agree :) 
(16:03:04) mhu: Hi all 
(16:03:08) xiuzhi: liheng::) 
(16:03:22) xiuzhi: mhu: moin 
(16:03:24) liheng: hi: matthias 
(16:03:28) liangjun: mhu: hi:) 
(16:03:34) kuangliang: hi,mhu 
(16:03:44) mhu: moin :-) 
(16:05:20) yugq: hi 
(16:05:20) liheng: mhu:xiuzhi suggested that we can have bi-weekly meeting in the future , what is your opinion? 
(16:05:21) mhu: Okay, I have read the agenda; you have a new team member? will he join our meeting also? 
(16:06:19) liheng: Guo yongshi, jion this meeting next time, today, he have another meeting of our company 
(16:06:19) liheng: :) 
(16:06:20) mhu: liheng: I think, having a meeting every two weeks only is fine when we are all busy working. 
(16:07:25) mhu: (also: I will be out on vacation for the next two weeks; so next meeting would be in 3 weeks) 
(16:07:51) liheng: I can have a meeting every week, yugq , kuangliang, liangjun also, but xiuzhi maybe so busy :) 
(16:08:23) xiuzhi: liheng: not true. I means if we have not too many issues to discuss 
(16:08:36) mhu: When we still have so much to discuss, as we did in the past, I think it is okay to have a meeting every week. 
(16:09:00) xiuzhi: liheng: weekly meeting is ok for me 
(16:09:09) mhu: xiuzhi: yes, that is what I also mean. 
(16:09:53) liheng: Okay, we keep weekly meeting 
(16:10:43) liheng: xiuzhi: Okay, and the proposal of paper "Improving and Maintaining Performance of OO in Long-term Development" has been passed selection, 
(16:11:14) xiuzhi: xiuzhi: great 
(16:11:29) xiuzhi: liheng: great 
(16:11:36) mhu: yes, I think that is great also 
(16:11:54) xiuzhi: liheng: and OO -> OOo 
(16:12:00) liheng: we need more discussion for tools and analysis of performance of OOo 
(16:12:05) liheng: Yes, OOo:) 
(16:12:27) liheng: Peter has mentioned to me:) 
(16:13:59) mhu: okay, discusssion of benchmarking tools... do have any ideas? 
(16:14:13) mhu: s/do have/do you have/ 
(16:15:00) liheng: mhu:In your opinion, what are urgent improvement of Tuning and Benchmark tools? 
(16:16:33) mhu: well, I think we once discussed that first of all we need a set of "standard and reproduceable" measurements / tests. 
(16:17:15) mhu: ...say: how long it takes to load (and display?) a particular reference document. 
(16:18:30) mhu: ...this would be the macroscopic / user relevant measurement. 
(16:18:50) liheng: Yes, for a long time most raw-data will be comparability and explicit 
(16:20:07) liheng: please explain "how long it takes to load (and display?) a particular reference document." :( 
(16:20:29) mhu: what I am thinking about is something like: Y=f(x1, x2, ...,xN); where Y is the user visible / macroscopic value, and the x's are the variables that cause it 
(16:20:58) mhu: liheng: okay, I will explain... 
(16:22:31) mhu: I said: "...set of reproduceable measurements"; one measurement out of that set of measurements could be a measurement of the time it takes to load one of the (yet to be defined) reference documents. 
(16:22:42) mhu: does this make it clearer? 
(16:24:10) liheng: you mean the individual measurements in specified parts? 
(16:24:36) liheng: for load a reference documents? 
(16:25:01) mhu: not yet, measurements of specified parts may be measurements of those x1, ...,xN's 
(16:25:46) mhu: in this example, I meant a simple number, say: 5 seconds 
(16:25:51) yugq: mhu: about Y=f(x1, x2, ...,xN), may I understand that like: Y=speed, x1=startup speed, x2=load/save document speed, x3=menu shown speed ... ? 
(16:25:59) liheng: If we have enough manpower we can not only define the f(x1.......xN) but also paint a big picture for key paths and hotspots 
(16:27:48) mhu: yugq: well, almost; Y would the total load time, say 5 seconds, and x1 may be xml parsing speed, x2 memory allocation speed, x3 locking speed, and so on; f() would basically tell how these factors contribute to the end result Y. 
(16:28:09) mhu: liheng: yes, that is the direction that I am thinking :-) 
(16:30:23) liheng: after them, we must define effectual and comparability benchmarks for all node (x1.....xN) 
(16:30:28) liheng: right? 
(16:31:37) mhu: yes, probably; but hopefully not for so many, but only the most important ones; that is, for those that contribute to many Y's (like xml parsing, memory alloc, ...). 
(16:34:18) liheng: For a long time, I think for create a set of tools to automatically analyze data of benchmark and compare them between several versions 
(16:35:12) liheng: mhu:Network seems slowly:( 
(16:35:31) mhu: so, yugq already mentioned: startup speed, load/save speed, menu open speed; that would be the different macroscopically observable Y's in my world; they may all depend on different x's, but may also depend on a set of same x's. 
(16:36:18) mhu: liheng: I can wait, dont worry too much about your network 
(16:37:26) liheng: mhu:For a long time, I think of create a set of tools to automatically analyze data of benchmark and compare them between several versions 
(16:37:35) mhu: ...that set of same x's (contributing to many Y's) would be the ones that I would create individual benchmarks for, to start with. 
(16:38:07) mhu: oh yes, I forgot to answer that one, stay tuned... 
(16:38:25) mhu: ..set of tools to automatically analyse... 
(16:39:35) mhu: ...I think of that can be done with a "T-Test" called statistical method (testing statistically difference between two datasets), do you mean someting like this? 
(16:41:37) mhu: sorry for all this math; I have had a course in "six sigma methodology", and in my previous life I have been a physicist :-) 
(16:41:44) liheng: Yes, most of, and all data can be traced in difference versions 
(16:42:02) mhu: yes 
(16:44:14) liheng: Yes, now we need a start point to try which tools can do that 
(16:44:14) liheng: :) 
(16:45:24) mhu: well, tooling would be two parts: one part to collect the data (maybe that is what you have from Malte?), the other part to analyze it. 
(16:46:02) liheng: Three parts in my mind, testcase, benchmarks, method of report 
(16:46:52) mhu: if you can produce a set of measurements, say: measure a documents load time 10 times in a row, for 2 versions of OOo, than I can provide you with the code to do a T-Test of that datasets. 
(16:47:58) mhu: yes, you right; but at this high level, I think report can initially be "the diff is 5% and it is statistically significant" or so. 
(16:48:17) liheng: i am not clear of "than I can provide you with the code to do a T-Test of that datasets." 
(16:48:20) liheng: :) 
(16:48:52) mhu: I have written a small set of Java methods some years ago; I can give you the code. 
(16:49:27) mhu: meaning you dont need to invent the math yourself 
(16:50:05) liheng: oh, yes thank you, 
(16:50:22) mhu: you are welcome 
(16:50:46) liheng: i have a mistake for 'code' and 'datasets' 
(16:50:47) liheng: :) 
(16:51:37) mhu: TTest.java = code, {5,4,4,5,...7,5} = dataset 
(16:51:42) mhu: :-) :-) 
(16:52:39) liheng: i mean the report must can lead more developers to notice some problem of performance 
(16:53:51) liheng: one target is tuning for every version ,and another is refactoring in the future. 
(16:54:01) mhu: well, yes. on the other hand, the numbers of course must be able to speak for them selves; than we can think of how to present them; but yes, presentation is important also. 
(16:55:14) mhu: yes, we agreed on that already: tuning for a version is short-term only; the real goal is indeed long-term (refactoring) improvements. 
(16:57:37) liheng: will we discuss a example in OOo performance (maybe common hotspot), to define a set of benchmark 
(16:58:51) mhu: back to tooling: maybe, for reporting we can make a small extension / addin for Calc to do the T-Test between two datasets; then we would have an initial presentation also ? just an idea. 
(16:59:28) mhu: sorry, I needed to finish that idea first; what was your question wrt "example..." 
(17:00:17) liheng: a sample for a hotspot or a key path 
(17:01:17) mhu: and you want to discuss what about that sample? sorry, I have not yet understood
(17:01:47) xiuzhi: mhu: study a case in formance 
(17:02:02) xiuzhi: liheng: does that your meaning? 
(17:02:24) mhu: oh yes, we should study a case to learn what is going on and how to analyze and present it, yes. 
(17:03:05) liheng: xiuzhi:thank you, i just try to find clear words:) 
(17:03:33) mhu: maybe, for practical purposes, we start with a configmgr example? 
(17:04:31) liheng: mhu:Of course!!!;) back to tooling: I want to setup a server for datasets:) 
(17:04:34) mhu: that could be: Y=configmgr contribution to startup time, and we could try to find the major x's (hotspots) contributing to that Y by some f(). 
(17:05:23) mhu: yes, that server to store the measurement results was a good idea. 
(17:06:48) mhu: ...we could also so a "synthetic" configmgr benchmark, not use startup time of entire office; I think yugq already wrote some "unit test" or "benchmark" ? 
(17:07:26) yugq: mhu: yes 
(17:07:46) liheng: so, it's good for persisting all data of teat 
(17:07:57) liheng: sorry teat/test 
(17:08:37) mhu: yes, if we want to learn something from the data, and other developers shall learn something of it, then it is good to store that data. 
(17:09:07) liheng: okay, :) 
(17:09:30) mhu: okay 
(17:10:08) liheng: mhu:that all for me. 
(17:10:27) mhu: yes, that's all from me also 
(17:10:33) liheng: I wish you have a nice holiday 
(17:10:41) mhu: thank you 
(17:11:10) liheng: you are welcome, and see you at Aug 21th 
(17:11:36) mhu: see you in three weeks, august 21. 
(17:11:45) mhu: bye all 
(17:11:47) xiuzhi: see you 
(17:11:51) liheng: bye:) 
(17:12:04) kuangliang: bye 
(17:12:27) liangjun: bye 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/07/24==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/07/24 
Time: 16:04– 17:03 
Meeting No.: 
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Agenda: 
(4:04:19 PM) liheng: hi,all 
(4:04:27 PM) liheng: sorry, I'm late 
(4:04:30 PM) mhu: Hi Liheng 
(4:06:10 PM) liheng: mhu:yugq have some questions about creating a CWS 
(4:06:16 PM) xiuzhi: hi all 
(4:06:33 PM) liheng: yugq:please 
(4:06:48 PM) liheng: sorry, please :) 
(4:07:09 PM) yugq: oh, I created a CWS by EIS, the state is not correct. 
(4:08:02 PM) yugq: and then, I created an issue, not checked yet. 
(4:08:50 PM) yugq: I am just wait waiting for the issue being checked. 
(4:09:28 PM) yugq: I don't know how to change the CWS state from "planned" to "new" so that i can use it. 
(4:09:54 PM) mhu: sorry, can you give me 5 min? Someone just entered my room for a short discussion; I will be back soon, I promise... 
(4:10:36 PM) liheng: of course 
(4:13:39 PM) xiuzhi: yhgq: Did you post your ssh key to OOo to verify it ? please use linux console or cygwin on windows platform to create new CWS. please ask lijian about this kind of issue 
(4:15:18 PM) yugq: xiuzhi, OK, I think i know the problem. Thanks! :-D 
(4:15:26 PM) mhu: back again, sorry for that. 
(4:16:13 PM) mhu: okay, yugq: creating cws... 
(4:17:23 PM) mhu: ...I have not much experience doing that remotely via eis.services.openoffice.org (here in Hamburg I do that with command line tools that do contact the eis database internally)... 
(4:18:13 PM) mhu: ...I think, if you have a problem with cws, please ask Martin Hollmichel for help (I hope he is available and not on vacation; xiuzhi ?) 
(4:18:49 PM) mhu: ...but, of course I can look and see if I can understand the state of the cws... 
(4:18:59 PM) xiuzhi: mhu: I asked one people to help yugq to solve this issue 
(4:19:23 PM) xiuzhi: mhu:that is OK. 
(4:19:31 PM) yugq: mhu, I think it's my mistake for using EIS to create a CWS. Is it possible for me to change the state CWS to "new" when it is now "planned"? 
(4:19:32 PM) mhu: xiuzhi: okay, whom did you ask? So that I can talk to him ... 
(4:20:08 PM) xiuzhi: mhu: one guy of our side 
(4:20:25 PM) xiuzhi: mhu: we had same issue one year before. 
(4:20:54 PM) xiuzhi: mhu: one guy from our side 
(4:21:44 PM) mhu: oh, okay, I see. Maybe I can help anyway? What is the name of the cws? 
(4:22:17 PM) yugq: mhu, the CWS name is "configtune00". 
(4:22:22 PM) xiuzhi: mhu: sure, you can ask Martin H to do some help 
(4:23:57 PM) mhu: okay, I will look at it, and ask Martin. 
(4:24:09 PM) liheng: okay, we return to the discussion of "lock". 
(4:24:12 PM) yugq: mhu, thank you! 
(4:24:26 PM) mhu: yugq: you are welcome. 
(4:24:49 PM) mhu: okay, the "locks" discussion... 
(4:26:19 PM) liheng: so many locks in soffice, but all of them are necessary or not ? 
(4:26:49 PM) mhu: I don't remember exactly where we ended with that discussion, but I had the impression that it was not clear about what you where talking and vice versa 
(4:27:32 PM) mhu: well, you would need to analyze the design to find out whether a lock is necessary or not. 
(4:28:17 PM) mhu: and, no, not all of them may be necessary. but to say which one is not necessary, you need to have a design. 
(4:29:06 PM) liheng: Yes, it's just our opinion, sometime, we need some constraint of application of "Lock", 
(4:29:33 PM) mhu: ooo is using multiple threads, and the UNO design rules say, that a UNO component needs to be thread safe. 
(4:29:41 PM) liheng: can't use a lock if you have some misgivings 
(4:30:32 PM) mhu: a new design to solve many of the problems with the original design (all components thread safe) is the "UNO Threading Framework". 
(4:31:13 PM) mhu: but, this new design is not yet (widely) implemented in ooo. 
(4:31:56 PM) mhu: but the goal is to have mechanisms / design that enables ooo to use more threading than it does today. 
(4:32:42 PM) mhu: ...think of multi-core desktop cpus, all but one idle. what a waste of resources. 
(4:33:20 PM) liheng: we are just thinking maybe we can create a set of tools to trace invalid "lock" 
(4:33:51 PM) liheng: and clear them in last term of a release version 
(4:34:02 PM) mhu: can you explain when is a lock "invalid" ? 
(4:35:35 PM) liheng: a lock was created but it not safe any resource 
(4:35:58 PM) mhu: can you explain what is a "resource"? 
(4:36:51 PM) liheng: a share memory or handle 
(4:36:53 PM) mhu: (sorry for asking these many silly questions; I only want to understand what you are thinking) 
(4:37:16 PM) mhu: memory shared with whom? 
(4:37:33 PM) mhu: how do know it is not shared? 
(4:38:15 PM) liheng: now , we don't know, but if we have some trace-tools ,we can find it 
(4:39:04 PM) mhu: yes, this is what I am talking about: you dont find it, you do it by design and not by runtime analysis ! 
(4:40:00 PM) mhu: the lock may correctly be there by design 
(4:40:53 PM) mhu: and there could tomorrow be a thread that requires the lock; that this thread is not there today, is irrelevant. 
(4:41:30 PM) mhu: sorry for the harsh words, I dont know how to explain better 
(4:43:06 PM) mhu: on the other hand, I know of cases where you proof that the design is over-engineered in that there is only one owner, and the resource not really shared.. 
(4:43:13 PM) liheng: okay, I see, but I still have some suspecting for it 
(4:43:21 PM) mhu: ..in these cases you can of course eliminate the lock. 
(4:44:28 PM) mhu: yes, I understand. you should suspect silly things with so many lines of code :-) 
(4:45:35 PM) liheng: in a certain module (a job) we and desige it well, but if for all of OpenOffice.org, how to find the problem of locks, that is my thinking 
(4:45:36 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:45:51 PM) mhu: I think we will find (many) cases, where the design is inconsistent and a lock not really needed. But only a design analysis can proof that. 
(4:46:32 PM) liheng: maybe it was only a suspecting 
(4:47:16 PM) mhu: yes, you need to think about the entire design of ooo; that is what the "UNO Threading Framework" tries to do. 
(4:48:33 PM) liheng: I need study deeply, but I maybe restart this topic again,,,, 
(4:49:35 PM) liheng: please help us, to clarify it 
(4:49:40 PM) liheng: ;) 
(4:49:56 PM) mhu: yes, don't worry; I am sure we will discuss this again :-) 
(4:50:20 PM) mhu: and I dont have a problem discussing this. 
(4:50:28 PM) liheng: thank you,,that all for me 
(4:51:35 PM) mhu: I dont have much either, maybe: do have anything new on the MID? why did you send the spec? 
(4:51:50 PM) mhu: s/do have/do you have/ 
(4:52:36 PM) mhu: ah, I remember: that was xiuzhi's project(s), right ? 
(4:53:05 PM) liheng: you ask for table of MID Device 
(4:53:20 PM) liheng: on last discussion of it 
(4:53:21 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:54:05 PM) liheng: but we can't get Lenovo's table, so append table of BenQ to weekly report:) 
(4:54:14 PM) xiuzhi: now ,liheng continue this project. 
(4:54:54 PM) mhu: yes, I think these devices are interesting. and probably many people to use them in future (like mobile phones today). 
(4:55:04 PM) xiuzhi: the project of lenovo is not over until now 
(4:55:16 PM) mhu: did you try to run RedOffice / OOo on it? 
(4:55:39 PM) liheng: OOo have been run on them;) 
(4:55:54 PM) mhu: and does it run good / fast ? 
(4:56:14 PM) liheng: not fast, but good for view a document 
(4:56:14 PM) xiuzhi: it is not good on mobile phone 
(4:56:27 PM) xiuzhi: MID is okay 
(4:56:37 PM) mhu: I think, the major challenge is the small display size (800x480). 
(4:57:23 PM) xiuzhi: but there are many challenges to this kind of Device. eg, the size and the speed 
(4:57:27 PM) mhu: so, they are fast enough? maybe the new Intel Atom cpus are really not bad. 
(4:57:31 PM) liheng: and lenovo's MID will be used by 2008 Beijing Summer Games 
(4:57:34 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:57:50 PM) liheng: can' 
(4:58:11 PM) liheng: can run, and read, but not for long time using 
(4:58:11 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:58:17 PM) mhu: yes, I understand that you are / want to work with Lenove :-) 
(4:58:33 PM) mhu: s/Lenove/Lenovo/ 
(4:59:39 PM) liheng: maybe all kind of MID :) 
(5:00:33 PM) mhu: okay, that's it for today? 
(5:01:00 PM) liheng: that all for me 
(5:01:08 PM) xiuzhi: ok 
(5:01:50 PM) liheng: mhu:see you next week 
(5:01:52 PM) mhu: okay, then see you next week (after that, I am on vacation for 2 weeks, from aug 4 to aug 15 or so) 
(5:02:03 PM) yugq: xiuzhi, I asked lijian for the problem of "CWS" right now. 
(5:02:41 PM) xiuzhi: yugq: ok, 
(5:02:44 PM) mhu: yugq: I will talk to Martin H. 
(5:02:47 PM) yugq: ;-). thanks! 
(5:02:56 PM) xiuzhi: yugq: did you know the reason? 
(5:03:00 PM) mhu: okay, bye all, see you next week. 
(5:03:03 PM) liheng: bye 
(5:03:04 PM) yugq: mhu, thanks! It's my mistake. 
(5:03:11 PM) xiuzhi: bye 
(5:03:12 PM) yugq: mhu, bye. 
(5:03:16 PM) yugq: bye all. 
(5:03:17 PM) liangjun: bye all 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/07/17==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/07/17 
Time: 16:02– 17:02 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(4:03:00 PM) mhu: Hi all 
(4:03:04 PM) kuangliang: hello mhu 
(4:03:13 PM) yugq: mhu, hi 
(4:03:35 PM) yugq: xiuzhi, hi 
(4:03:48 PM) xiuzhi: hi all 
(4:03:53 PM) xiuzhi: yugq:hi 
(4:04:00 PM) kuangliang: hi xiuzhi 
(4:04:29 PM) mhu: I am still reading the "configmgr refactoring" document that LiHeng sent out this morning. 
(4:04:30 PM) liangjun: hi 
(4:04:56 PM) liheng: hi,matthias 
(4:04:59 PM) mhu: ...can you give a few minutes more time? 
(4:05:06 PM) mhu: Hi LiHeng 
(4:05:10 PM) liheng: sure, 
(4:05:40 PM) mhu: okay, I am half through the doc; maybe 3-4 minutes... 
(4:06:34 PM) xiuzhi: kuangliang:hi 
(4:06:42 PM) xiuzhi: mhu:moin 
(4:07:41 PM) liheng: please, i just read it , this morning (beijing time) 
(4:07:42 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:11:21 PM) mhu: so, I have now read the doc... 
(4:11:33 PM) mhu: hello xiuzhi, moin :-) 
(4:11:34 PM) liheng: mhu:Are there some problems with the document? 
(4:12:07 PM) mhu: oh, I think it is a good summary of what we discussed so far... 
(4:12:28 PM) mhu: ...and also a good plan of how to move on... 
(4:12:49 PM) mhu: ...I still need to thing about 2 items: ... 
(4:13:22 PM) mhu: ...one is the "security is not important" ... the other is the new "xml file format" ... 
(4:13:53 PM) mhu: ...maybe, the first is what concerns me most. 
(4:14:21 PM) mhu: but we dont need to discuss these points now. 
(4:14:54 PM) mhu: generally it is a good design / plan. 
(4:15:24 PM) liheng: mhu:ok ,we discuss these points via e-mail. 
(4:15:32 PM) mhu: okay 
(4:16:12 PM) liheng: Now, we can create CWS by this design for Configmgr,.... 
(4:16:54 PM) mhu: yes, I think you can go ahead, and start with a CWS. 
(4:17:42 PM) liheng: as the same time , we change focus to common hotspot "lock". 
(4:18:17 PM) liheng: yugq and liangjun have some points on it, 
(4:18:39 PM) mhu: yes, go ahead please... 
(4:18:48 PM) liheng: but , we are not sure on them, 
(4:19:12 PM) liheng: liangjun:please, :) 
(4:19:36 PM) liangjun: We find the OO implement one thread , and other thread was the help thread. 
(4:20:34 PM) mhu: yes ? 
(4:21:16 PM) liheng: liangjun:please put out some details 
(4:21:54 PM) liangjun: The resource be usered in the main thread ,almost runing timer 
(4:24:06 PM) liangjun: I think the help thread do not share resources with the main thread. 
(4:25:04 PM) mhu: yes, most of OOo is single threaded (and not really) thread safe. only few threads are used by some thread safe components. configmgr is supposed to also be usable in a thread safe environment. 
(4:26:15 PM) mhu: but I am not sure I know which "help thread" you mean (is that a single thread?) 
(4:27:57 PM) liangjun: yes, I think. 
(4:28:44 PM) liangjun: I mean the help thread is the thread n't the UI thread. 
(4:29:06 PM) mhu: what does that "the help thread" do? do you have a call stack? who creates that thread? 
(4:29:22 PM) mhu: sorry for so many questions... 
(4:30:32 PM) mhu: I think there are more than 2 threads; there is the "main" (i.e. the first) thread, which is also the "UI thread", and then there are a couple more threads used by thread safe components... 
(4:31:02 PM) mhu: ... so I dont know which "the (single) help thread" you could mean here; sorry.# 
(4:31:03 PM) liangjun: yes . 
(4:32:04 PM) mhu: liangjun: yes? is that not a too simple answer to so many questions ? :-) 
(4:32:22 PM) liangjun: sorry, the help threads. 
(4:32:29 PM) yugq: mhu, could you please explain the "thread safe components" more detail? 
(4:32:46 PM) mhu: oh sure, sorry... 
(4:33:55 PM) mhu: for example: in the sal/rtl/source/alloc*.c memory manager code, there is a thread flushing "caches" of memory blocks; the memory manager is a thread safe component... 
(4:35:05 PM) mhu: another example would be the configmgr: it is a thread safe UNO component, and also uses a thread to (lazy) write back data to its files. 
(4:35:33 PM) yugq: mhu, yes, understand. Thank you! 
(4:35:57 PM) liangjun: I mean your two threads are help thread. 
(4:36:09 PM) mhu: in general, all UNO components need to be (by definition) thread safe; some are not safe by design and use the "solar mutex" instead. 
(4:37:10 PM) yugq: liangjun means the "flushing" thread a help thread. 
(4:37:34 PM) mhu: liangjun: oh, I think now I understand: you are not talking about a single "help thread", but of multiple "helper threads" which exist for different amounts of time. 
(4:37:59 PM) liangjun: mhu: yes .:) 
(4:38:04 PM) mhu: :-) 
(4:38:48 PM) mhu: so, yes. but they usually share data which their respective components; otherwise they would not be needed. 
(4:39:50 PM) liangjun: I think the resource almost runing in the main thread . 
(4:40:53 PM) mhu: and, of course, we need to think about using more than just one thread for the future (think "core 2 duo / quad" processors). 
(4:41:32 PM) liheng: but, soffice.bin only can run in one processor 
(4:41:45 PM) mhu: yes, but that needs to be fixed. 
(4:42:18 PM) mhu: that is, I do want more parallelism, not less. 
(4:42:40 PM) liheng: yes, sometime , some thread use mutex but it do anything on share resource 
(4:43:39 PM) mhu: we dont need parallelism everywhere (that makes no sense), but central components like configmgr at least need to be thread safe; how it reaches that safety is implementation dependent. 
(4:44:39 PM) liangjun: yes, but not all resource be shared . 
(4:44:56 PM) mhu: yes, an implementation can be inefficient; than it can be improved; still it needs to be thread safe; but again: how it reaches that goal is a detail. 
(4:46:13 PM) mhu: I am not sure I understand what you want to say: you dont want configmgr to be a thread safe UNO component? 
(4:46:44 PM) mhu: or are you saying it's implementation of thread safety is inefficient? 
(4:46:59 PM) liheng: mhu:this point is not only for ConfigMgr 
(4:47:12 PM) mhu: I do believe the latter maybe true; and of course we should improve that 
(4:47:21 PM) liangjun: oh , I mean the configmgr be called by only thread . 
(4:47:42 PM) mhu: liangjun: that is surely not true 
(4:48:05 PM) yugq: mhu, i think liangjun means, main thread and other thread do not share resource, so we don't need lock so much. 
(4:48:35 PM) mhu: I am still not sure I understand 
(4:48:54 PM) mhu: these thread do share a resource and that is the configmgr. 
(4:49:03 PM) liheng: lock, is a wellknown hotspots, but soffice.bin have little thread, where is lots of lock come from?? 
(4:50:19 PM) mhu: are we talking about the granularity of locks in the current configmgr implementation? that can surely be improved. 
(4:50:31 PM) liangjun: liheng: yes , we can reduce locking's count 
(4:51:42 PM) liheng: mhu: sorry, we not only talk about comfigmgr's lock but also for whole OO:) 
(4:51:55 PM) liangjun: mhu: I talking about the OO 
(4:52:14 PM) mhu: but it must be possible for multiple (parallel) threads to access the configuration quasi simultaneously; that is, configmgr needs to be thread safe (as every UNO component); how it achives that thread safety, is an implementation detail: it can lock very fine grained or more coarse grained. 
(4:52:25 PM) yugq: liheng, i think we need more discuss. As you said, "we are not sure on them". 
(4:53:05 PM) liheng: yugq:yes 
(4:53:33 PM) mhu: well, yes it is about all of OOo; I also think this needs more discussion; have you all had a look at the "UNO Threading Framework" ? 
(4:54:12 PM) liheng: yes ,i have. 
(4:54:43 PM) liangjun: mhu: sorry , I no . I only read current the OO source . 
(4:54:49 PM) mhu: Okay, then you probably know what I have been talking about :-) 
(4:55:31 PM) mhu: well, the current source is what we want to improve, right? it may not be how it should be. 
(4:55:46 PM) liheng: but , it was all supports for threads, but i think there was few restrict 
(4:56:12 PM) mhu: "few restrict" ? 
(4:58:05 PM) mhu: I dont understand... 
(4:58:08 PM) liheng: i means safety maybe lean on structure first 
(4:58:51 PM) liheng: and then , it's a method to control like a "lock" 
(4:59:41 PM) mhu: Can we continue this discussion via email, or in our next meeting? I have another meeting now ... 
(5:00:11 PM) liheng: okay, thanks for your tips 
(5:00:49 PM) mhu: thanks for an interesting discussion, and sorry for so many questions :-) 
(5:01:04 PM) liangjun: mhu: thank you.:) 
(5:01:25 PM) mhu: okay, then see you next week; bye all ... I need to hurry now ... 
(5:01:30 PM) liheng: okay, see you next week, and thanks again 
(5:01:35 PM) liheng: bye 
(5:01:37 PM) liheng: :) 
(5:02:22 PM) yugq: bye. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/07/10==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/07/10 
Time: 16:00– 16:58 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(4:00:19 PM) liheng: hello,every one 
(4:00:56 PM) liheng: mhu:hi mhu;) 
(4:01:13 PM) yugq: hi 
(4:01:58 PM) kuangliang: hi mhu 
(4:02:40 PM) mhu: hi all 
(4:02:47 PM) yugq: mhu,hi 
(4:03:01 PM) liangjun: mhu::) hello 
(4:05:23 PM) liheng: mhu: last week we talk about how to make OO's hotspot more static for measure 
(4:06:26 PM) mhu: yes, we talked with xiuzhi (in Hamburg) about your document, that xiuzhi translated for me. 
(4:06:59 PM) liheng: and we will make a thesis for OO Conference 
(4:07:17 PM) mhu: and you proposed to make performance measurements more reproducable... 
(4:07:49 PM) mhu: oh yes, a talk at the conference would surely be good 
(4:08:05 PM) liheng: yes, So, we continue to talk about them. 
(4:08:13 PM) mhu: yes 
(4:09:20 PM) mhu: ...more reproducable by using a constant infrastructure (e.g. the same machine) for those measurements, right? 
(4:09:29 PM) liheng: mhu:by the way, did you read michael Meek's new mail in performance mailinglist 
(4:09:54 PM) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I've read it 20 minutes ago 
(4:10:15 PM) liheng: It is looks some trouble with our network , so slowly :( 
(4:10:40 PM) mhu: on last weeks ESC meeting (were xiuzhi was too) we also talked about (outstanding) performance work 
(4:11:10 PM) mhu: okay, then I can writer faster than you :-) :-) 
(4:11:29 PM) liheng: ahh, yes,;) 
(4:12:25 PM) liheng: lots of performance works was in Michael's list 
(4:12:39 PM) mhu: ...and mmeeks reminded us (me) of a project that I have started quite some time ago to optimize (and refactor) the "store" modules code. 
(4:12:47 PM) liheng: but why they are not up-stream? 
(4:13:41 PM) mhu: LiHeng: well, some of mmeeks changes are "controversial" (if not worse), some apply to Linux only, and so on and so on. almost none is without discussion. 
(4:14:14 PM) mhu: ideas are usual good, but implementation not always so. 
(4:15:25 PM) liheng: string interning is good way to reduce Consumption of memory during runtime 
(4:15:33 PM) mhu: and, mmeeks engineers often only submit patches and dont want to do the CWS and QA work, so some changes simply lay around because noone does want to do the work of integrating them. 
(4:16:20 PM) mhu: LiHeng: yes, I have no idea why the string-intern patches are not integrated, have not seen the details. 
(4:16:48 PM) mhu: ...and mmeeks did most of the original string-intern work. 
(4:17:17 PM) mhu: ...so I dont know why is not doing the rest as well, but waits for others to do it 
(4:17:20 PM) liheng: oh, Now i see, but if we do right of his idea, we can integrated them in a CWS by CH2000 
(4:17:57 PM) mhu: yes, why not. we can take patches, review them and if they are good, integrate them 
(4:18:38 PM) liheng: by the way, I just applied 3 persons jion us, we get strong;) 
(4:19:00 PM) mhu: oh good to hear that :-) 
(4:20:58 PM) liheng: yes, For a long time I think we need more and more people to jion us, so I apply to my company to expand us, and we get right;) 
(4:22:02 PM) liheng: but It spent my 3 weeks time, 
(4:22:25 PM) mhu: I think you are right; and I also think xiuzhi got a new impression last weel of how much work there still is to do (performance, modularization, ...) 
(4:22:40 PM) mhu: s/weel/week/ 
(4:23:06 PM) mhu: yes, you spent 3 weeks ... ? 
(4:23:37 PM) mhu: ah, it took you 3 weeks to get the 3 more people ? 
(4:23:49 PM) liheng: yes , 3 weeks , talk, discuss, plan, 
(4:24:11 PM) mhu: okay, understood; that's life for a project lead I guess :-) 
(4:24:48 PM) liheng: except my technical job 
(4:25:34 PM) mhu: yes 
(4:25:37 PM) liheng: so, if you find some patch and idea that maybe improve OO's perform, we can try it and test , then start a CWS integrate them 
(4:27:11 PM) liheng: back to topic "more reproducable by using a constant infrastructure for those measurements" 
(4:27:24 PM) mhu: okay 
(4:28:58 PM) liheng: i think we need a standard for comparing 
(4:29:20 PM) liheng: same machine is a part of it 
(4:30:54 PM) liheng: in simply profile, we can only find simple hotspots 
(4:31:01 PM) mhu: yes, "same machine" was meant as an example, only. the important part, as you say, is " standard". 
(4:32:46 PM) mhu: ...simple profile...simple hotspots... ? 
(4:35:11 PM) liheng: simple profiling means run a profile tools for several modules but you can not confirm its efficacy 
(4:37:07 PM) mhu: okay, I think I understand. 
(4:37:27 PM) mhu: do you have ideas how to improve that? 
(4:37:37 PM) liheng: and we can only find "strcmp" and "locks" is hotspot , it's "simple hotspots" 
(4:38:24 PM) mhu: ah yes, you mean functions that consume much time because they are called so many times ? 
(4:39:41 PM) mhu: ...and assuming that "strcmp" for example is already optimized, the true hotspot is the code that calls strcmp so many times ? 
(4:39:42 PM) liheng: yes, but we don't comfirm the cause in up-level 
(4:40:07 PM) liheng: yes 
(4:40:09 PM) liheng: ! 
(4:40:19 PM) mhu: oh well, sometimes it is done; but you are right, we dont do that often enough. 
(4:40:37 PM) liheng: it's the matter we must refactor for 
(4:40:39 PM) liheng: ;) 
(4:40:47 PM) mhu: yes, we agree. 
(4:42:29 PM) liheng: so, before if, we need a benchmark-system to find and verify our target 
(4:43:22 PM) liheng: sorry , before it, 
(4:43:26 PM) liheng: not if 
(4:43:43 PM) liheng: so many type error today 
(4:43:44 PM) liheng: :( 
(4:43:46 PM) liheng: sorry 
(4:45:31 PM) mhu: dont worry, when I write too fast, I do make many typos also 
(4:46:33 PM) mhu: yes, benchmark (system); an initial attempt is the cws performance tests, that Malte sent to you. 
(4:46:46 PM) mhu: ...but that is probably not enough 
(4:46:59 PM) mhu: ...and needs to improved / extended 
(4:47:12 PM) mhu: s/needs to/needs to be/ 
(4:47:23 PM) liheng: yes , it's my opinion. 
(4:47:41 PM) mhu: okay 
(4:49:19 PM) liheng: we need a set of benchmark, that can find the changes between several versions, and split them from static to dynamic points 
(4:50:02 PM) mhu: yes, agreed. that was my question: do you have ideas how to achieve that? 
(4:52:23 PM) liheng: Yes, at first we optimize basic modules or objects, and make some benchmarks for them to measure them individual 
(4:54:07 PM) mhu: ah yes, for example: not only measure total startup time, but also contribution of configmgr (for example) and take action if measurable changes occur. 
(4:54:41 PM) liheng: yes, ;) 
(4:54:43 PM) mhu: ...and that for more modules individually. yes. 
(4:54:47 PM) mhu: okay. 
(4:55:22 PM) mhu: sorry to say so, but I have the next meeting in 5 minutes. so I need to close sharp today. 
(4:55:56 PM) liheng: then, we cache information of the basic modules, and put the information into up-level benchmark, then, we can get some sign 
(4:56:52 PM) liheng: Okay, the draft of thesis will be sent to you when we complete it 
(4:57:20 PM) mhu: okay, yes please send it to me; I will read it with interest. 
(4:57:21 PM) liheng: all opinion and method will be in it 
(4:57:33 PM) mhu: good. 
(4:57:43 PM) liheng: so , that all today 
(4:57:50 PM) liheng: thank you ;) 
(4:57:59 PM) mhu: okay, I have to leave now, heading to another room on another floor... 
(4:58:13 PM) mhu: thank you. bye all, see you next week. 
(4:58:34 PM) yugq: mhu, See you. 
(4:58:39 PM) liangjun: :)bye 
(4:58:50 PM) liheng: bye 
(4:58:52 PM) liheng: :) 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

==Performance/Meetings/2008/07/03==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/07/03 
Time: 15:00– 15:58 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(15:00:42) LiHeng: hi,xiuzhi, how about our ID? 
(15:01:46) xiuzhi: Liheng: matthias is not in 
(15:02:02) xiuzhi: he will be here in several minutes 
(15:02:15) LiHeng: okay, 
(15:02:38) xiuzhi: 9:00 is a little early to him ,maybe 
(15:02:46) LiHeng: xiuzhi:thank you for your translation 
(15:03:30) LiHeng: xiuzhi:how about our ID? we have no ID like xx@openoffice.org 
(15:03:33) xiuzhi: LiHeng:my pleasure 
(15:04:08) LiHeng: where did you apply it ? 
(15:04:27) xiuzhi: LiHeng: that is liheng@openoffice.org and yugq@openoffice.org. you can log in openoffice.org using that account 
(15:04:51) yugq: xiuzhi, hi. hi all. 
(15:05:05) LiHeng: ahh,:-(, we didn't know it 
(15:05:06) xiuzhi: yugq:hi ,afternoon 
(15:05:33) LiHeng: xiuzhi:you are in morning:) 
(15:05:47) xiuzhi: Please see :http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/Login?cookieCheck=on 
(15:06:23) yugq: xiuzhi is in Germany? 
(15:06:32) LiHeng: liangjun:what is your ID on OpenOffice.org? 
(15:06:49) liangjun: :) 
(15:07:15) LiHeng: yugq:yes he went to harnbag last week 
(15:07:37) liangjun: zengliangjun@RedOffice.com.cn 
(15:07:39) yugq: wow, :-D 
(15:07:40) xiuzhi: LiHeng: and Matthias want to know the meaning of "same platform" and "does the reconstruction mean a long-term plan" 
(15:07:59) xiuzhi: yugq:sure 
(15:08:23) xiuzhi: LiHeng: Please see my yesterday's email 
(15:08:41) xiuzhi: LiHeng: that is one of the topics today 
(15:09:08) yugq: xiuzhi, it seems I can't use yugq@openoffice.org to log in openoffice.org. 
(15:09:41) xiuzhi: yugq:really? I have tell Martin this account. Please try again 
(15:09:46) liangjun: your mail has been changed 
(15:09:48) xiuzhi: or regist again 
(15:10:01) liangjun: yugq:your mail has been changed 
(15:10:35) yugq: I'll try it again. 
(15:10:43) LiHeng: I have already read your translation. "same platform" means we want to build a lab for performance on internet, all of OO developers can submit his version and CWS, and that get the report based same platform 
(15:11:12) LiHeng: xiuzhi:can you understand my explaination 
(15:11:59) xiuzhi: LiHeng: not really 
(15:12:15) LiHeng: not really? 
(15:12:47) xiuzhi: same platform: the same OOo milestone? 
(15:13:02) xiuzhi: that is my and Mhu's understanding 
(15:13:35) xiuzhi: mhu is in now. we can start the meeting soon 
(15:14:54) LiHeng: :) 
(15:15:49) xiuzhi: or same platform: the same OOo Master workspace milestone., the performance evluation of every CWS should based on one same OOo milestone. 
(15:16:05) LiHeng: mhu:hi, good morning 
(15:16:08) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being so late (traffic :-( ) 
(15:16:16) yugq: mhu, hi! 
(15:16:23) liangjun: mhu:hi:) 
(15:16:31) LiHeng: mhu:so long time to see you again 
(15:16:43) mhu: Hi LiHeng, yugq, liangjun 
(15:16:54) mhu: yes, 2 weeks? 
(15:17:04) LiHeng: 2 :) 
(15:18:00) LiHeng: mhu:we just talk about "same platform";) 
(15:19:01) mhu: yes, xiuzhi and I had some discussion yesterday; some words seem to be unclear ti us. 
(15:19:17) mhu: s/ti us/to us/ 
(15:20:10) xiuzhi: yugq: try" yugh" to log on http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/Login?cookieCheck=on 
(15:20:24) yugq: I think LiHeng means the "same platform" mostly like "unitive platform". 
(15:20:30) yugq: xiuzhi, OK. 
(15:20:30) LiHeng: In my opipion,to measure performance of OO, we should run all testing cases on same machine, and same state within 
(15:21:25) mhu: Ah, I see. "same platform" = "same machine + state" 
(15:21:43) xiuzhi: LiHeng: same hardware and software environment/context? 
(15:22:34) mhu: this sounds like a "virtual machine" like "VirtualBox". 
(15:22:35) LiHeng: we want build a lab to provide it on internet for OO 
(15:23:07) LiHeng: mhu: :) ,yes, cache snapshot and some state we need 
(15:23:28) yugq: xiuzhi, what is my password? 
(15:23:36) mhu: yes, that's what I mean :-) 
(15:23:54) xiuzhi: yugq: that is yours, I donot know 
(15:24:50) LiHeng: xiuzhi:mhu and I think the "same platform=same machin + state" 
(15:25:15) xiuzhi: LiHeng:ok, 
(15:26:13) yugq: xiuzhi, are you sure my id is "yugh"? I can't login:-( 
(15:26:57) mhu: yugq: can you also try "yugq@openoffice.org" ? 
(15:27:10) xiuzhi: yugq: that is your account. I do not know . if you cann't log in, please regist again 
(15:27:44) LiHeng: mhu:and "the reconstruction mean a long-term plan" means refactor 
(15:29:23) yugq: xiuzhi, mhu, I know now. I thought you assigned a new id for me. Sure, I can login with "yugq", which is my id always used.:-D 
(15:29:52) LiHeng: i means refactor need a lot of work in following version and make OO framework well and delicate step by step 
(15:31:03) mhu: LiHeng: Ah, I see. "refactor" to me sounds better than "reconstruction" (where I often think "chart2"). 
(15:32:06) mhu: yes, refactoring can be a lot of work. But I also do not see much alternative. Many code cannot stay (for long time) as it is now. It needs refactoring. 
(15:33:34) LiHeng: Yes, i am agree, but in another aspect, refactor can make OO delicate but fast 
(15:34:29) LiHeng: so for performance we must confirm every refactoring planing make OO faster (at least not slower) ;) 
(15:35:04) mhu: sure, we want to use refactoring to make it faster (but also "better" in terms of functionality, quality, maintainability,. ...) 
(15:35:36) mhu: yes, it shall not get slower, of course :-) 
(15:37:13) LiHeng: so, i think refactor of OO need discuss in a large scale to make hotspot static 
(15:38:23) mhu: yes, I agree. 
(15:40:17) LiHeng: lots of work maybe don't effect to performance directly, but they can make hotspot locating easily and stably 
(15:41:36) LiHeng: and that ,all people can find problem of performance and deal it individual 
(15:42:33) mhu: yes, that may be. Do you have some ideas how to achieve that? 
(15:44:34) LiHeng: some, so i am experimenting for them 
(15:46:27) mhu: okay, maybe we can discuss these idea when you're experiments have shown some results. 
(15:47:17) LiHeng: so, at least we must improve performance tools of testing for CWS, comparability is important things for it 
(15:48:17) mhu: yes, that is true. these tests need to function properly. 
(15:49:01) LiHeng: that comparabiliy is not only for a CWS but also can do comparing between servsal 
(15:49:46) mhu: ...between several... what ? releases ? like 2.3.0, 2.3.1, ... 
(15:50:19) LiHeng: and Performance Group mark some statistics for report some problem would be existing 
(15:51:13) LiHeng: mhu:may be, but several CWS for 2.3.0 or a major version 
(15:51:41) mhu: yes, problem detection and reporting is indeed important. 
(15:52:29) mhu: ah, okay. ...between several... can also be several CWS, yes. 
(15:55:23) LiHeng: yes, next week we discuss some idea of tools and feasbility of lab on internet 
(15:57:02) mhu: okay, fine. 
(15:57:18) LiHeng: i will send some details of them to you (maybe yugq will send it to you, i am gloomy for mailbox recently ) 
(15:57:37) mhu: sorry, but xiuzhi and I are now expected to go to the OOo ESC meeting here in Hamburg. 
(15:57:51) mhu: LiHeng: yes, please send it via email. 
(15:57:57) LiHeng: okay , that all 
(15:58:33) mhu: okay, then see you next week. have a nice afternoon / evening. 
(15:58:43) mhu: bye all 
(15:58:44) LiHeng: thank you,:) 
(15:58:45) LiHeng: bye 
(15:58:50) yugq: mhu, bye. 

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[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 08

2010-03-17T23:12:34Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2009/08/28==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/08/28 
Time: 15:57– 16:58 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(3:57:39 PM) liheng: kuangliang:please call guoyongshi to attend this meeting 
(3:57:40 PM) liheng: :) 
(3:58:50 PM) liheng: xiuzhi:guo yongshi will join us to improve performance of performance of OO 
(3:59:08 PM) xiuzhi: liheng,guoys:welcome 
(3:59:09 PM) guoys: :) 
(3:59:27 PM) liheng: guoys::) 
(3:59:45 PM) mhu: Hi all 
(3:59:53 PM) xiuzhi: hi all 
(4:00:00 PM) liangjun: hello all 
(4:00:01 PM) liheng: Hi matthias 
(4:00:04 PM) yugq: hi 
(4:00:06 PM) guoys: hi 
(4:00:46 PM) liheng: mhu:let me introduce new person Guo Yongshi (guoys) 
(4:01:14 PM) liheng: he joined us to improve performance of OO 
(4:01:43 PM) mhu: Hi guoys, nice to meet you. 
(4:01:49 PM) guoys: me too 
(4:01:59 PM) liheng: guoys:please introduce yourself :) 
(4:02:25 PM) liheng: guoys: please introduce yourself 
(4:02:28 PM) guoys: you know my english is poor 
(4:03:30 PM) liheng: okay, 
(4:03:55 PM) liheng: mhu:gouys has worked for CH2000 for 7 years, 
(4:04:52 PM) mhu: okay, so gouys has quite some experience, I guess. 
(4:05:01 PM) liheng: and he is a sinor architect of OO & Linux 
(4:06:16 PM) liheng: he also participate in the RedOffice on MID Device 
(4:06:33 PM) mhu: okay 
(4:07:17 PM) liheng: he knew VCL and Framework very well too, so he can help us to build the big picture of OOo's performance 
(4:07:49 PM) mhu: yes, I think he will be a valueable addition to the team. 
(4:08:55 PM) liheng: Maybe two person will join us in next month, they will create new tools for performance:) 
(4:09:54 PM) liheng: okay 
(4:10:02 PM) mhu: okay, yes support for tooling sounds good 
(4:10:43 PM) liheng: continue the discussion of tools for performance 
(4:11:25 PM) liheng: I think we need 4 kinds tools,... 
(4:11:56 PM) liheng: 1.Test (Benchmark,profiling) Tools 
(4:12:13 PM) liheng: 2.Raw data storage 
(4:12:21 PM) liheng: 3.statistical tools 
(4:12:32 PM) liheng: 4.report and rule of development. 
(4:13:21 PM) liheng: and for Teat tools, we sparate them to basic function testing and application function testing 
(4:14:58 PM) liheng: application function testing tools like the tools Malte gave us, that can run some case ,to show macroscopic value 
(4:15:41 PM) mhu: I agree, and think this list (with 4 kinds) looks okay 
(4:17:07 PM) liheng: and basic function testing tools will mark inner logical and function to show all key part in macroscopic function 
(4:17:10 PM) mhu: this is basically what we discussed last I time, if I remember correctly. 
(4:19:30 PM) liheng: yes, so we discussed it and think for inner function we must use tool-code(like RTL_XXX_LOG and new support we will provide)... 
(4:20:24 PM) mhu: yes, the RTL_LOG... facility is also part of what Malte did, right? 
(4:21:04 PM) liheng: and for macroscopic value, we design a framework of tools to support a flexible tools set 
(4:21:31 PM) mhu: okay, fine. 
(4:22:07 PM) liheng: do we need open source of our new tools 
(4:22:10 PM) liheng: ? 
(4:23:44 PM) mhu: well, that is what you need to decide. If the tools should be of maximum value to all developers, it is most often useful to open source them... 
(4:24:17 PM) xiuzhi: +1 
(4:24:27 PM) mhu: services that you provide, e.g. "2. raw data storage", of course cannot and need not be open sourced 
(4:25:22 PM) mhu: ...also, "4. reporting..." could be a service that you provide, and no code to open source... 
(4:25:27 PM) liheng: If we can open source, we can support more difference kinds test for all developers, that sounds good 
(4:26:36 PM) mhu: ...so, it depends on what it is. If it is a useful tool where source code is involved, I think open source is usually better. Other can then help to develop and maintain those tools. 
(4:27:23 PM) liheng: okay,:), We think open source of test tools is necessary and that can it eary to maintain specail extension for every CWS in future 
(4:27:37 PM) mhu: if it is more a "service" (or "software as a service", SaaS) so that it can be remotely accessed, it need not be opensource. 
(4:27:57 PM) mhu: liheng: okay, then we agree :-) 
(4:29:07 PM) liheng: we can do some work for SaaS for fans :), and open source to all developers 
(4:31:15 PM) liheng: In the view of code level support, i think we need more support on categorization and sorting 
(4:32:20 PM) mhu: "categorization and sorting" of what? 
(4:32:27 PM) liheng: If we build a picture that descript some key path of some macroscopic value,we must check it individual 
(4:33:46 PM) liheng: eg. this benchmark is show xml parsing in loading and another is for saving
(4:34:04 PM) mhu: ah, yes. okay. 
(4:35:19 PM) liheng: so, we maybe format the log file and build tool to fetch a set of data 
(4:36:01 PM) liheng: and put these data into statistic tool 
(4:36:24 PM) liheng: like T-Test 
(4:36:45 PM) mhu: log file? RTL_LOG_...? yes, that is good. This needs LOG statements in the code that you want to analyze. 
(4:37:23 PM) mhu: yes, I can look up the (T-Test) code that I wrote some years ago, and send it to you. 
(4:39:09 PM) liheng: thank you 
(4:39:28 PM) liheng: i remember it code in Java 
(4:40:12 PM) mhu: yes, but as it was translated from FORTRAN, we translate it from Java to C/C++ also :-) 
(4:40:48 PM) mhu: It is only number crunching. that works in every programming language that I speak :-) 
(4:41:40 PM) liheng: okay, i know FORTRAN,Java,C++,perl very well, on problem 
(4:41:49 PM) mhu: and the code always looks like FORTRAN ... 
(4:42:37 PM) mhu: okay. it is also not so much code (few hundred lines, if I remember correctly)
(4:42:39 PM) liheng: but, FORTRAN is very well for math , i very like it in college 
(4:43:47 PM) mhu: same for me; so we may conclude our age from our knowledge of FORTRAN ? :-) 
(4:44:47 PM) liheng: Okay, of course . Do you think we create statistic tools in Java is a good idea, that they can run cross OS 
(4:45:55 PM) mhu: yes, that is why I rewrote it in Java; also to be easy re-used in a webapplication container, and so on. 
(4:47:47 PM) mhu: also, we could turn the code into an OOo-extension, and Java makes that multi-platform also. 
(4:48:34 PM) liheng: Yes,it's I want to do!, we can start from pair of Test tools and Statistic Tools, make data format easy to use 
(4:48:53 PM) mhu: (if that statistical analysis code would make sense as an extension (to Calc for example)). 
(4:49:25 PM) liheng: and create a serial of templates in Calc for report them 
(4:49:55 PM) mhu: I think we could not agree more, fine :-) 
(4:52:36 PM) liheng: next step, we are going to design the framework for appliction function tools and find the key path for old hotspot, load/save startup etc 
(4:52:36 PM) liheng: . 
(4:55:31 PM) liheng: mhu:that all for me 
(4:55:45 PM) mhu: yes, that would be the next step (sorry for slow response; someone is simultaneoulsly debugging a crash in my office, and oinvolving me in dsicussions...) 
(4:56:24 PM) mhu: okay, I dont have more for today, also. 
(4:56:46 PM) liheng: Okay, see you next week! 
(4:57:02 PM) xiuzhi: see you 
(4:57:10 PM) mhu: okay, yes see you next week. 
(4:57:15 PM) mhu: bye all 
(4:57:18 PM) liheng: bye 
(4:57:22 PM) liangjun: bye 
(4:57:24 PM) guoys: bye 
(4:57:36 PM) kuangl: bye-bye 
(4:58:08 PM) yugq: bye 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
[[Performance/Meetings|Go back]]

Performance/Meetings/2008 09

2010-03-17T23:12:30Z

Ivanm: Categorizing

{{Performance}}
==Performance/Meetings/2008/09/25==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/09/25 
Time: 16:00– 17:00 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(4:00:46 PM) liheng: hi,all 
(4:01:23 PM) mhu: Hi liheng 
(4:01:35 PM) yugq: hi 
(4:02:03 PM) liheng: mhu:kuangliang and xiuzhi can't not attended this meeting,because xiuzhi have some other bussiness and kuangliang just got a bady last week 
(4:02:16 PM) liangjun: hello all 
(4:03:42 PM) mhu: okay, then we are complete? 
(4:04:35 PM) liheng: Now yes, last person has been in ;) 
(4:05:00 PM) liheng: Did you view the picture of Configmgr dividing phases? 
(4:05:48 PM) mhu: yes, I have seen it, but not yet completely analyzed and understood. Can you / yuqg provide a short explanation? 
(4:06:26 PM) yugq: mhu, yes. 
(4:07:57 PM) yugq: we define the configmar performance as four parts(x1,x2,x3,x4). 
(4:08:23 PM) mhu: yes 
(4:09:41 PM) yugq: for example, x2 is defined as "data load/parse time from file", and we should add something to trace the log on some important classes such as TreeFactory. 
(4:10:49 PM) mhu: okay, understood 
(4:11:07 PM) yugq: the flow chart is a concept show to understand the every part more clearly . 
(4:11:55 PM) mhu: yes, good 
(4:11:55 PM) yugq: mhu, do you think these defines are good? 
(4:12:28 PM) mhu: yes, in general it looks good (especially the graphic :-) ) 
(4:13:18 PM) yugq: If this kind of defines is suitable for our analyze, we can do like this to divide other performance issue. 
(4:13:32 PM) mhu: what I am thinking about is how to sort out "independent variables" from "dependent variables" (i.e. root cause from observable effect)... 
(4:14:31 PM) mhu: ...and what would be the measurable variable here, i.e. what exactly is "Y". 
(4:15:12 PM) mhu: but yes, if it works out in this case, we should do similar for other performance issues, yes. 
(4:15:37 PM) yugq: mhu, yes. It's a problem to define Y as a clear thing. 
(4:15:59 PM) mhu: ...for example, could "Y" be the sum over the times for all config paths? 
(4:16:11 PM) yugq: I think Y is just a concept thing, something like a describe? 
(4:17:25 PM) mhu: oh, yes. of course it is a concept, but at some point you something concrete that is measurable. 
(4:17:43 PM) mhu: s/you something/you need something/ 
(4:18:34 PM) yugq: Y may not a simple sum of the time measurement. Sometimes X1 and X2 could be parallel. 
(4:19:42 PM) mhu: you mean parallel as in "executing in different threads" ? 
(4:21:09 PM) yugq: no, parallel defined things, maybe excute not at the same time, or excute at different routines. 
(4:23:19 PM) mhu: Hmm, maybe I do not yet understand. For me, Y and Xi really mean something like those oldfashioned variables in "y=f(x)", so the "x's" are the variables that "y" depends on by some function "f". 
(4:23:44 PM) yugq: but I think Y is just another defined thing, we can of course define it as a sum of all the time measurement. 
(4:24:36 PM) mhu: so, I understand your X2 and X4 as having a relationship that X2 depends on X4, or "X4=f(X2)". 
(4:26:03 PM) mhu: hmm, that was wrong: I mean the other way round: X2=f(X4) 
(4:26:21 PM) mhu: I should not type too fast :-( 
(4:26:58 PM) mhu: so, what I am trying to say is... 
(4:27:09 PM) yugq: mhu, yes. It's a mistake i undertook! 
(4:28:17 PM) yugq: what i thought before is that Y is not a function, just a concept. 
(4:28:53 PM) mhu: ...your picture is probably right in that X4 is a factor of X2, but what we still need to verify that it is an *important* factor, i.e. that the value of X2 is determined mostly by X4 and not by other, yet unknown, factors. 
(4:30:06 PM) mhu: Y is not the function, but the value of a function F with proposed variables X1, .... X4. SO, maybe Y= X1*X2 + X3*X4 ? 
(4:30:49 PM) mhu: that is just an example, the true F(...) may be something completely different. 
(4:31:04 PM) yugq: yes. 
(4:31:07 PM) mhu: ...and it may not even be totally understood.# 
(4:31:48 PM) mhu: ...but we should be able to measure an effect on Y when we change some of the X's. 
(4:32:27 PM) yugq: yes, I understand you now. 
(4:33:37 PM) mhu: okay, I also think that I now understand your diagram. 
(4:33:58 PM) yugq: we need an F to measure Y. like Y = F(x1,x2,x3), if x1 changes, Y should get changed. 
(4:34:49 PM) mhu: I think it is a good diagram, and your X1 ... X4 may indeed be interesting partial measures for the performance of configmgr. 
(4:35:00 PM) mhu: yes, that is what I wanted to say. 
(4:35:24 PM) yugq: mhu, OK. I think we understand each other now. ;-) 
(4:36:03 PM) liheng: mhu:what i understand, do you think every X must be in a serial? 
(4:36:31 PM) mhu: we might not need to understand what exactly F is, but we should know how to measure its value Y. 
(4:37:01 PM) mhu: liheng: with "serial", do you mean independent variable? 
(4:37:12 PM) yugq: mhu, I think if X in a serial, it will be easier to measure Y. 
(4:37:39 PM) mhu: I dont understand "serial", sorry. 
(4:38:08 PM) liheng: not independent variable ... 
(4:38:41 PM) yugq: I understand as do something in a sequential? 
(4:39:08 PM) liheng: in a sequential process 
(4:39:22 PM) yugq: :-D 
(4:39:30 PM) mhu: maybe I understand... 
(4:39:32 PM) liheng: maybe Y=X1+X2+...X3 
(4:40:13 PM) liheng: all X would be execute one by one 
(4:40:26 PM) mhu: no, I think that is not necessarily so. I your diagram we have X2 and X4 so that X2=f(X4), and that is just fine. 
(4:40:54 PM) yugq: liheng, yes. If something like this, it will be easy to measure. And I think there will be more complex part exsist. 
(4:41:07 PM) mhu: all these "factors" X can be pretty complex. 
(4:42:13 PM) liheng: mhu:yes, and we must give out explain whew we define the complex factor 
(4:42:53 PM) mhu: maybe, we are now back to my previous question of "maybe Y is the sum of all X1(which is for one path) for all paths" ? 
(4:43:31 PM) mhu: so that we in fact have many X1 ? one for each path? 
(4:44:22 PM) liheng: I think we can't make sure it 
(4:44:36 PM) mhu: liheng: explain complex factor: yes; and your diagram is very good for that explanation. 
(4:46:51 PM) liheng: I'm worry we can't make over all hotspot, that some case maybe more complex than this 
(4:47:53 PM) yugq: mhu, there will be many paths in actual, and we can get a statistic data when we test X1. 
(4:47:59 PM) mhu: I think, X1 (data search time from provider by path) is very interesting to look at: I think, what we want to achieve is something like minimize X1 on average of all path, or for the total of all paths, or reduce the variance in X1 for different pathes, ... What we want should determine what our Y is. 
(4:49:02 PM) yugq: we can use statistic data to describe an X1. 
(4:49:32 PM) mhu: yes, at least we need to measure / get statistics over X1. 
(4:49:52 PM) yugq: and how to test X1 can be defined alone. 
(4:49:59 PM) mhu: yes 
(4:50:34 PM) mhu: that means, for our purposes, we take X1 as one of our important Y's. 
(4:51:08 PM) liheng: Yes, It seems we must analyze X1 deeply 
(4:51:37 PM) mhu: (X3 may be in the same category; X2 and X4 are more of the independent variable category, influencing X1 and X3). 
(4:52:13 PM) mhu: yes, your diagram clearly shows that X1 is interesting to look at. 
(4:53:44 PM) liheng: but,it just give us a sign maybe some performance problem in there 
(4:54:18 PM) mhu: yes, that is where our understanding that X2 and X4 are the root causes comes in. 
(4:54:43 PM) mhu: we know, that to improve in X1 we need to work on X2 and X4 
(4:55:15 PM) mhu: so, X1 = f(X2, X4). 
(4:55:25 PM) mhu: ...as the diagram says. 
(4:55:55 PM) liheng: I have a ideal we can you this case to try our new test-tools and discuss with the result 
(4:56:08 PM) liheng: maybe X1 is a subsystem alone:) 
(4:56:15 PM) mhu: yes, that would be good. 
(4:56:41 PM) mhu: yes, that is what thought also: X1 maybe our first Y to analyze 
(4:58:13 PM) mhu: okay, I need to leave for the next meeting, sorry. 
(4:58:21 PM) liheng: yes, we are just a big map of dependency of OOo's performance 
(4:58:23 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:58:46 PM) mhu: yes, that big map can be an end result. 
(4:58:47 PM) liheng: okay, next week is our holiday:) 
(4:58:56 PM) yugq: :) 
(4:59:11 PM) mhu: yes, Peter Junge also sent an email explaining your holiday. 
(4:59:39 PM) mhu: so, I wish you a good time, enjoy your holidays, see in 2 weeks. 
(4:59:54 PM) mhu: s/see in/see you in/ 
(4:59:57 PM) liheng: so, we will get together at 10/9 
(5:00:04 PM) mhu: yes 
(5:00:19 PM) liheng: okay, bye, 
(5:00:19 PM) mhu: bye, need to hurry now... 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
==Performance/Meetings/2008/09/18==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 and the Community ?? 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/08/18 
Time: 16:03– 16:52 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(4:03:57 PM) liheng: hi,all 
(4:03:58 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:04:07 PM) mhu1: hi 
(4:04:16 PM) liangjun: hi,all 
(4:04:16 PM) liheng: Sorry,I'm late... 
(4:04:38 PM) liheng: another meeting take the long time:) 
(4:04:50 PM) mhu1: Don't worry about being late, usually I am the one who is late :-) 
(4:05:46 PM) liheng: today, Guoys can't attend this meeting, because he is just tranning several new perpons:) 
(4:06:19 PM) liheng: mhu:Did you receive the mail about this IRC 
(4:06:21 PM) mhu1: well, training new people is good also, I think 
(4:06:33 PM) mhu1: yes, I have read your email 
(4:07:38 PM) liheng: please help us to find your code of T-Test, we will start to create analyzing tool 
(4:08:51 PM) mhu1: yes, of course. If you give me a couple of minutes, I can look the code up.... 
(4:09:50 PM) liheng: Yes, today we have only one topic, what is develpor want to see in test report 
(4:16:13 PM) mhu1: okay, I have found the code, but I need a couple more minutes, stay tuned ... 
(4:17:14 PM) liheng: okay, maybe we can take a easy meeting today:) 
(4:21:23 PM) mhu1: okay, I have sent the code attached as reply to your email. So, you should have it soon ... 
(4:21:52 PM) liheng: Thank you every much! 
(4:21:53 PM) liheng: ;) 
(4:22:01 PM) mhu1: The code is somewhere between 3 and 5 years old, so I don't exactly remember all details. 
(4:22:35 PM) mhu1: but the main function contains a "unit test" like example how to use it. 
(4:23:12 PM) liheng: we study it first, for problems about it we discuss them via Email 
(4:23:20 PM) mhu1: okay. 
(4:24:16 PM) liheng: What do you think about what is develpor want to see in test reports? 
(4:24:22 PM) mhu1: You were asking "what developer want to see in test report..." ... 
(4:24:30 PM) liheng: yes :) 
(4:24:38 PM) mhu1: (I just wanted to prepare an answer ...) 
(4:25:15 PM) mhu1: So, what I think is most obvious, is "any change to better or worse". 
(4:25:42 PM) mhu1: next question would be "change in what?"... 
(4:27:09 PM) mhu1: and these what (the "Y" in our math. discussion, or "macroscopic observable values") can be "startup time", "document load time", "total memory consumption", or ... 
(4:27:33 PM) liheng: any change to better or worse abou 
(4:28:25 PM) mhu1: yes? 
(4:28:27 PM) liheng: What i understand you is we must find and show some macroscopic values change 
(4:28:56 PM) liheng: "(4:27:33 PM) liheng: any change to better or worse abou " is a worry type:( 
(4:29:19 PM) mhu1: that is the "high level view" only, of course. But I think this what most people (definitely users) are interested in. 
(4:30:13 PM) mhu1: okay, here are some thoughts... 
(4:30:37 PM) liheng: yes, and then we must show the detail of change by X (microcosmic values) 
(4:32:49 PM) mhu1: you developer work on some root cause "X" and work hard to improve the performance / time consumption / memory consumption of "X", and of course you expect it will improve the overall "Y" = "startup performance" (if Y=f(X)). So your "true" interest is to see that "Y" has indeed improved when you have been improving "X". 
(4:33:43 PM) mhu1: ...and for you developer, of course changes in "X" are also important to be reported. 
(4:33:52 PM) liheng: and, if you want to optimizing the code,do you have a prediction of effect 
(4:34:22 PM) mhu1: ...but maybe not so important to other developers how are not working on "your X" but on "their X". 
(4:37:34 PM) liheng: but I think we must show all X change to represent what has been really changed 
(4:39:21 PM) mhu1: I was only thinking about the level of detail; yes, maybe it is also important to show to all what X have been worked on. 
(4:39:55 PM) liheng: At first we can make some template for reports that mainly show the statistical results of macroscope value :) 
(4:40:18 PM) liheng: And append more details step by step 
(4:41:01 PM) mhu1: yes, that would be the place to start (like the CWS performance measurements that Malte did). 
(4:41:50 PM) mhu1: and, it would show us, if we have the process under control (that is can do reliable and repeatable measurements). 
(4:41:56 PM) liheng: To show all X is in order to show which changes cancel out your improving 
(4:42:41 PM) mhu1: Ah, yes that is an important point; I think I tend to forget about that; you are right :-) 
(4:43:55 PM) liheng: okay, that all for me:) 
(4:44:43 PM) mhu1: okay; can you send a note when you have received my email with the source code? 
(4:45:35 PM) liheng: yes, "DataAnalysis.java" 
(4:45:36 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:46:01 PM) mhu1: okay, so you already have it, that is good. Have fun with it. 
(4:46:29 PM) liheng: By the way, the work of improving of configmgr is all in well:) 
(4:46:42 PM) mhu1: it is stolen from the book "Numerical Recipes (Fortran edition)". 
(4:47:24 PM) mhu1: oh yes, I wanted to ask that for some time; good to hear that you are making progress with configmgr. 
(4:47:25 PM) liheng: I will try to find that book 
(4:48:38 PM) mhu1: the book should not be necessary, only if you to understand the details of "incomplete gamma functions" and such; try to study the Main() function, how the T-Test is used, that should be sufficent. 
(4:49:35 PM) mhu1: or a book about statistical data analysis (why you want to use a T-Test, and what it tells you) 
(4:49:40 PM) liheng: The first vesion will be brought out in 3~4 weeks, becouse long holiday of National Day;) 
(4:50:11 PM) mhu1: okay. When is that national holiday? 
(4:50:58 PM) liheng: Sep 28th to Oct 5th:) 
(4:51:18 PM) mhu1: Ah, okay. Wish you a good time then. 
(4:51:38 PM) liheng: thank you and see you next week 
(4:51:55 PM) mhu1: yes, see you next week. Bye all. 
(4:52:18 PM) liheng: bye 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/09/11==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/09/11 
Time: 16:02– 16:58 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(4:02:59 PM) mhu: Hi all, sorry for being late. 
(4:03:08 PM) xiuzhi: hi all 
(4:03:10 PM) kuangl: hi 
(4:03:12 PM) liheng: hi 
(4:03:17 PM) liangjun: mhu:hello 
(4:03:23 PM) liangjun: hello all 
(4:04:47 PM) liheng: mhu:because i am just implementing the prototype of new test-tools so i have only one topic about it today 
(4:06:18 PM) mhu: okay, that is fine with me. I'm just now studying your email with the design picture... 
(4:07:22 PM) liheng: during I designed the prototype of the tools, I improved the idea of framework, I want add a set of UNO Service for performance analysis 
(4:08:21 PM) mhu: yes, sounds good. 
(4:09:22 PM) mhu: that is also what your picture displays, right ? 
(4:11:26 PM) liheng: yes! And all developer can use them to extend our tools, and we can get more precise value. 
(4:13:13 PM) mhu: yes, that was the we discussed during one of our last meetings, if I remember correctly. 
(4:14:05 PM) mhu: Any details that you want to discuss? 
(4:14:19 PM) liheng: At first, i record the time by using Java methods, but i found i got the a lot of inaccuracy in results, especially in basic function case 
(4:16:30 PM) mhu: what do you mean with "basic function" ? "basic" as in "BASIC := Beginners All purpose Symbolic Instruction Code" ? 
(4:17:26 PM) mhu: ...and what timing accuracy do you need ? milli seconds, micro seconds, nano seconds ? 
(4:18:24 PM) liheng: milli is enough :) 
(4:18:36 PM) mhu: okay 
(4:19:47 PM) liheng: BASIC function mean a common arithmetic 
(4:21:38 PM) liheng: or common object and method in OOo, Y=X1+X2...+Xn, every X is a basic function 
(4:23:16 PM) mhu: just as a sidenote: my javadoc says "long System.currentTimeMillis()" or since Java 1.5 "long System.nanoTime()". 
(4:23:23 PM) liheng: I want to get you suggestions of which form will we provide these services to all developers, a extension,inner fucntion,or ... 
(4:23:54 PM) mhu: okay, now I understand your "basic function" (as is "independent variable"). 
(4:24:25 PM) mhu: s/as is/as in/ 
(4:25:29 PM) mhu: how to provide these services? If possible (and matches the problem that shall be solved) as an extension, I think. 
(4:25:34 PM) liheng: oh,,,,the inaccuracy come from the function System.currentTimeMillis() qua Java method .... 
(4:26:29 PM) mhu: then probably your resolution / accuracy requirement is better than milli seconds ? 
(4:28:50 PM) liheng: \the basic function maybe only take Millis second, but to simulate million calls of runtime I run it thousand times, and record the time, but Java spend more time than test target(the basic function) :( 
(4:29:17 PM) mhu: back to "How to provide these services...": maybe there is also functionality that needs code integrated into OOo natively. An example would the the "rtl_log_..." functions. 
(4:30:52 PM) liheng: yes, a parts of it must be functionality, but the warp object only in extension well, i thought 
(4:31:56 PM) mhu: yes, I think the analysis code (and maybe the code that starts a test) should be an extension.... 
(4:33:10 PM) mhu: ...but if we would need support like "rtl_log_..." (I don't know what that would be, though) then that would go into the native code. 
(4:33:28 PM) liheng: ;),yes, i design a set of methods to start a test in several modes, eg. run a case n times; 
(4:33:33 PM) mhu: ...this is only hypothetical. 
(4:33:54 PM) mhu: yes, that is good. 
(4:35:12 PM) liheng: okay in another side how to support measuring of memory it a difficult job 
(4:35:57 PM) mhu: what do you mean with "measuring of memory" ? 
(4:37:10 PM) liheng: to measure the memory condition 
(4:37:53 PM) mhu: "the memory condition" ? what do you mean with that ? 
(4:38:44 PM) xiuzhi: LiHeng: the memory cost? 
(4:38:51 PM) liheng: to measure the increment of memory using about a case, 
(4:38:59 PM) mhu: how much memory is consumed by the process ? or by some subsystem, say the configmgr instance ? 
(4:39:02 PM) liheng: xiuzhi: yes thank you:) 
(4:39:29 PM) liheng: subsystem! 
(4:39:30 PM) mhu: sorry for always asking so much ... 
(4:39:31 PM) liheng: yes 
(4:40:30 PM) mhu: okay, so: the process uses N bytes of memory before a test, and uses N+X bytes of memory after a test, and you want to measure "N", right ? 
(4:41:05 PM) mhu: ohh, well: what I wanted to say is: you want to measure "X" .... 
(4:41:48 PM) liheng: Yes, measure memory cost in X, 
(4:43:03 PM) mhu: okay, good. Or not? here is a counter example: what do you do, if X=0 ? because that subsystem does 1 million allocations and 1 million deallocations? 
(4:44:51 PM) liheng: ;),i design a machanism can block a case in preset break point 
(4:45:14 PM) mhu: :-) 
(4:46:23 PM) mhu: okay, you want that as function of time during the test. Because the integral over time can be zero. 
(4:47:00 PM) liheng: Most X will be declared by Prefermance group, so we can put some bread point 
(4:48:21 PM) mhu: oh, perhaps I should not have used the letter "X" in my "N+X" example above. There I meant "N bytes of memory + X bytes of memory"; not our "basic function X". 
(4:49:11 PM) mhu: yes, of course we will find out / define which are the main influence factors "X" and try to measure tehm. 
(4:49:25 PM) mhu: s/tehm/them/ 
(4:50:29 PM) liheng: yes, because fragment of memory is a risk for a large software 
(4:51:02 PM) mhu: which "fragment" you mean "fragmentation" of memory? 
(4:52:20 PM) liheng: yes , fragmentation :) 
(4:53:17 PM) mhu: okay, thanks. Well, I think modern memory allocators can handle that quite well, and OOo has more and larger bottlenecks than memory fragmentation. 
(4:54:09 PM) mhu: but of course, we need to find that out. 
(4:54:21 PM) mhu: where "find out" means "measure". 
(4:54:42 PM) mhu: ...what the most important X's are. 
(4:54:55 PM) liheng: :) "but of course, we need to find that out." is the same words i want to talk, :) 
(4:55:05 PM) mhu: okay :-) 
(4:56:10 PM) liheng: before we clarify all reasons of problem in OOo, we must be find them out all 
(4:56:19 PM) mhu: Again, I have another meeting in about3 min. Are we finished for today? 
(4:57:02 PM) mhu: oh, yes. we must determine which "X" are there, and how important are they relative to each other. 
(4:57:14 PM) liheng: yes, thank you 
(4:57:38 PM) liheng: I will finish the prototype in a week, 
(4:57:46 PM) mhu: okay, please go ahead with your test tool prototype. 
(4:57:59 PM) liheng: of course, 
(4:58:11 PM) mhu: see you next week; bye all. 
(4:58:15 PM) liheng: bye 
(4:58:40 PM) xiuzhi: see you 

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==Performance/Meetings/2008/09/04==
Meeting Minutes 
IRC Meeting of Sun Microsystems (StarOffice) with RedFlag2000 
Performance Project 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2008/09/04 
Time: 15:53– 16:57 
Meeting No.: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda: 
(3:53:02 PM) liheng: kuangl: please call guoyongshi to attend this meeting 
(3:53:04 PM) liheng: :) 
(4:00:21 PM) liheng: xiuzhi: :) 
(4:01:47 PM) liheng: guoys:Hi,please attend this meeting every Thr 
(4:02:07 PM) guoys: ok 
(4:02:20 PM) mhu: Hi all 
(4:02:27 PM) liheng: mhu:Hi, :) 
(4:02:36 PM) guoys: hi 
(4:02:38 PM) yugq: hi 
(4:02:47 PM) liangjun: hi 
(4:03:05 PM) xiuzhi: hi al 
(4:03:08 PM) kuangl: hi 
(4:03:40 PM) liheng: mhu:Did you receive the mail about topics today? 
(4:03:50 PM) mhu: yes, I read it 
(4:04:45 PM) liheng: Is it enough for our new test tools? 
(4:05:36 PM) mhu: you mean the list of requirements? yes I thinkso. 
(4:05:48 PM) mhu: s/thinkso/ think so/ 
(4:05:56 PM) liheng: Yes, the requirements;) 
(4:06:43 PM) mhu: as usual, "the devil lies in the details" as the saying goes. But the requirements seem okay. 
(4:07:40 PM) liheng: devil lies?:) 
(4:08:04 PM) mhu: maybe subst "lies" with "is" ? 
(4:09:05 PM) mhu: (i.e. "lies" does not mean "does not say the truth") 
(4:09:12 PM) liheng: yes, i just want to ask do you think we can run a macro in a document is a good ideas? 
(4:10:44 PM) mhu: yes, for parts of the analysis and presentation, it would be perfect to have that in OOo itself. Maybe not a macro, but a Java or C++ extension, but maybe we simply need to try it out. 
(4:13:21 PM) liheng: i means if a serial of operations of a specail document needs launch to show some problem we need to run a macro 
(4:13:51 PM) yugq: Liheng, I think the problem is how to count time spent in the macro. 
(4:15:05 PM) liheng: yes, we can support this function for benchmark in Macro Module 
(4:15:49 PM) liheng: a specail method do launch a macro and record the time 
(4:18:22 PM) liheng: mhu:can you understand me? 
(4:19:00 PM) mhu: Ah, you mean a macro to trigger the test, not to analyze the data? yes, that would be possible I think. 
(4:19:45 PM) mhu: (sorry, for not responding earlier) 
(4:20:08 PM) liheng: never mind;) 
(4:21:13 PM) liheng: okay,do you think the sample of config is easy to use? 
(4:21:30 PM) yugq: Liheng, maybe it's good enough to test some functional modules with macro. But some other tests such as testing startup cann't be done with macro. And I just worry about the macro itself is not efficient enough :) 
(4:22:00 PM) mhu: the current testtool (used to perform GUI testing) is completely BASIC macro based, so this should be possible.... 
(4:23:04 PM) mhu: ...if we think it is not easy to separate macro execution from the test, as yugq said, then we can probably also use the testtool. Maybe. 
(4:25:42 PM) mhu: yugq: I agree, and think a macro can only be used to *trigger* a test; the collection and analysis of the data probably needs other methods; and startup is always a special (bootstrap) case. 
(4:26:50 PM) liheng: yugp:For old and fixed hotspots, running a macro is not necessary, but for some case that a volunteer find a slow operation and he want to submit it to us, he can bind the document and macro together, we only do that case to find problem:) 
(4:29:49 PM) yugq: Liheng, yes, i understand now. Developers provide the test case, and we do test by our means like doing some timelog. 
(4:30:16 PM) mhu: yes, this is how I understand it also. 
(4:31:14 PM) liheng: yugq: yes, or maybe we can provide some cases to other developers, they can easy to use 
(4:31:15 PM) liheng: ;) 
(4:32:18 PM) yugq: :-D 
(4:34:42 PM) liheng: So,we can make out a simpler design and prototype in next step, then we can discuss deeply with them 
(4:35:02 PM) mhu: okay, fine. 
(4:36:09 PM) liheng: mhu: I have a problem with optimzing by link and bootstrap ... 
(4:36:33 PM) mhu: yes, what kind of problem? 
(4:37:54 PM) liheng: I remembered someone do the bootstrap for linux and make startup faster in several version,... 
(4:38:48 PM) mhu: yes? 
(4:39:56 PM) liheng: only on linux system. Why do we not make the explicit description of lib for all OS? 
(4:40:53 PM) mhu: do you mean the "pagein" mechanism of "sequential disk read of shared libs instead of demand paging" ? 
(4:42:11 PM) mhu: from what I know, Windows file cache is more "intelligent", in that it does handle shared libs different and and already loads them sequentially into file cache, instead of demand paging... 
(4:42:32 PM) liheng: a little words in http://tools.openoffice.org/performance/index.html title is "Symbol Size Optimizations" 
(4:43:06 PM) mhu: when I made these tests, some years ago but on WinXP, "pagein" on windows gave no further improvement. 
(4:43:32 PM) mhu: I look into that tools.ooo page now ... stay tuned ... 
(4:45:34 PM) liheng: the "pagein" mean put the files into continuous sectors 
(4:46:39 PM) mhu: okay (a) symbol size: I think that is about 6 years old, and means code size as a compiler optimization problem... 
(4:47:38 PM) mhu: (b) pagein := contigous sectors: yes, but with todays large disks you seldom have fragmentation, many files copied to disk are in fact contigous. 
(4:48:34 PM) liheng: yes, but i think "bootstrap" is valid on linux and solaris , not for windows link? 
(4:50:12 PM) mhu: what do you mean with "bootstrap" here ? 
(4:51:24 PM) liheng: yes on linux 
(4:52:11 PM) mhu: I dont understand that as an answer to my question... 
(4:53:02 PM) liheng: i see, and i will send a mail to explain it 
(4:53:26 PM) mhu: okay, sorry. 
(4:53:48 PM) liheng: I can't descript them very well, 
(4:54:21 PM) mhu: yes,dont worry, we will clarify that somehow , I am sure :-) 
(4:54:22 PM) liheng: That all for me 
(4:55:21 PM) mhu: okay, I also dont have more; and I now have a regular meeting at 11:00 Hamburg time (that is in 5 min); so finishing in time is fine with me. 
(4:55:58 PM) liheng: Okay,bye 
(4:56:05 PM) liheng: see you next week 
(4:57:13 PM) mhu: yes, see you next week; bye all 
(4:57:18 PM) kuangl: bye 
(4:57:19 PM) yugq: bye 
(4:57:41 PM) guoys: bye 

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